RNG is a very huge spectrum in any game. In Hearthstone, however, for the sake of my own sanity, I've always categorized it into two major groups. Those being: the Singular-RNG effect cards, and the Dual-RNG effect cards.
The singular RNG effect are ones where there's just one RNG element governing the end result of the card. For example, Unstable Portal is a singular RNG effect card, as the only random effect in it is which minion you get from it. A card like Ragnaros the Firelord, too is a singular RNG effect card because the only RNG element it has is which character it will hit at the end of your turn.
Then, there's the Dual-RNG cards. These cards have 2 elements that dictate its end result. An example of this are the Ogres such as Mogor the Ogre, Ogre Brute and Mogor's Champion. These cards have 2 RNG walls they must pass before their end result is visible. They must first pass the 50% chance to hit the wrong minion, thus involving RNG, then in the case that they miss, they must now choose which minion they attack, thus involving RNG once more. In this way, they have Dual-RNG effects. Another great and simple to understand card with the Dual-RNG effect is Tinkmaster Overspark. A long time ago, before it was nerfed, it used to be a Singular-RNG effect card, but ever since it was nerfed, it became a Dual-RNG effect card. How so? Well, RNG first decides which minion gets transformed, and once that's done, it THEN decides what it transforms into, thus RNG is at work here twice.
For the longest time, I believed that as long as the cards they made fell into these two categories, RNG wasn't a problem. They could try to dazzle me with fancy RNG effects all they wanted but I knew that even cards like Dark Bargain, all of the Spare Part cards and Nefarian would one way or the other be either Singular or Dual.
...
But with WoG... they just had to move a step closer towards... insanity. "3 Old Gods have passed", I thought, "they were okay." C'Thun was singular, N'Zoth the Corruptor too was singular, even Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound was singular... so the last one... Yogg-Saron was it?... he'd be singular too, at best a dual... but... Yogg-Saron, Hope's End ended all the hope I had in the RNG system revolving around Hearthstone. Like a galaxy-wide lightning bolt, he struck my computer screen, (metaphorically) shattering it into a million pieces. As I read its text, I thought to myself, this has to be an April Fool's Joke. It has to be, wh-what is this?! This can't be ... but the date was the 8th of April. APRIL THE FREAKING 8TH.
So, roleplaying aside, what is Yogg-Saron, Hope's End exactly? It's quite definitely not a singular RNG effect, nor is it a dual one. Well, long story short, Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is an Infinitely Expanding RNG effect, Hearthstone's first too. Since, before playing Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, you can theoretically play an infinite amount of spells, thus, Yogg-Saron, Hope's End will trigger an infinite amount of RNG effects. Imagine loops and circles of singulars, duals, or even quadruple effects, all elegantly designed into one master plan of absolute chaos. What I like about the card is certainly that it blows my singular and dual theory out the window. Blizzard's shown me that they can literally make anything, that there's nothing bounding them, and with the digital format of Hearthstone, that is to be expected. It keeps me excited to see what springs up from behind Ben Brode's devious laughter, while also fearing the unpredictable.
All in all, while this card might just make you insane, it's one quite interesting and I hope we all get the chance to try it! ;)
It chooses a random spell. Is the spell something that you cant target characters with, such as Flamestrike? If yes, cast it. If no, then can it only target minions or enemy characters? If yes, choose a random enemy/minion and cast it. If no, then choose any random character and cast it.
I would call this your "dual rng thing". First it chooses a random spell, then it chooses what character to throw it at.
Yeah, but it does that infinitely, or at least based on how many spells we played. Thus it wouldn't feel right to include him in the "Dual RNG" effect. Part of why Dual cards are categorized as such is because they perform their specific function and then stop, Yogg-Saron however, might perform a singular or a dual function over and over until the amount of spells is reached. It can cast spells like Dark Bargain as well as Unstable Portal. Thus, I'd really say it's a combination of the two.
Singular. The RNG "transaction" you can call it, triggers just once, in which it selects 8 targets for the spells. There's no other RNG related effect attached with the spell.
And with Raven Idol it decides at random what mode to be in, and then makes a random card choice from that mode. And just like a good Lovecraftian Elder God Yogg-Saron will make you question your sanity. I love the flavor of this card so much. You relinquish all control over to him.
There is only "Singular RNG", "Dual RNG" is something that you create to make easier your understanding.
EX: The "ogre mechanic" - 50% to attack the wrong enemy
If your ogre has 3 targets he has 50% to hit the one you have chosen, and 25% for the unchosen ones.
The same is true for Tinkmaster,
If he has 4 targets each target has 12.5% to became a squirrel or 12.5% to became a devilsaur.
The same is true for Yogg-Saron, only the math is a little bit more complicated (I think it is 93 spells and some can choose a target) but, all in all still RNG just changing according to the number of targets (it's one hell of a big equation).
Therefore RNG is only one, the chances can be different though.
i really agree with the other guys. "singular rng" and "dual rng" is either overcomplicating or oversimplifying. it doesn't really make any sense
Maybe I couldn't get my message along more correctly. >.>
While the claims you made are factually correct, I disagree with Yogg's RNG effects being infinite, because you can only play 30, 40 at maximum spells in one game, so the scope is limited and not infinite as you have described it.
i really agree with the other guys. "singular rng" and "dual rng" is either overcomplicating or oversimplifying. it doesn't really make any sense
Maybe I couldn't get my message along more correctly. >.>
While the claims you made are factually correct, I disagree with Yogg's RNG effects being infinite, because you can only play 30, 40 at maximum spells in one game, so the scope is limited and not infinite as you have described it.
That's because of the deck size limit that we have, and let's say if that were ever to be removed, we could in theory play an unlimited amount of spells. Plus that's possible even currently, I believe. Both players can use Gang Ups on Lorewalker Chos every turn to be basically be using spells and avoiding fatigue and make the game last forever?
The amount of choices is not random. The amount of targets is not random. This card still fits your definition of dual rng.
The exception, perhaps, would be "choose one" spells like Wrath or perhaps something like Crackle, but this is more of spell pool issue rather than Yogg Saron's one.
This card suffers the same issue Lorewalker Cho does, you cannot guarantee that overall benefit will be yours, so it's not dangerous balance wise.
Unstable Portal, gets you shredder...double rng right there
Once the Shredder has come out of the Portal, it has no further ties with it and any RNG of the shredder would then be considered its own, thus the Portal would remain singular. :P
Yea I forgot about Lorewalker Cho but even with him players will fatigue at some point limiting the number of spells
Nope, not if you have Lorewalker Cho on the field and both priest have an upgraded Hero-power from Justicar Trueheart and use Excarvated Evil. But there is still the upper-limit of 90 rounds when both player explode and ties automatically.
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RNG is a very huge spectrum in any game. In Hearthstone, however, for the sake of my own sanity, I've always categorized it into two major groups. Those being: the Singular-RNG effect cards, and the Dual-RNG effect cards.
The singular RNG effect are ones where there's just one RNG element governing the end result of the card. For example, Unstable Portal is a singular RNG effect card, as the only random effect in it is which minion you get from it. A card like Ragnaros the Firelord, too is a singular RNG effect card because the only RNG element it has is which character it will hit at the end of your turn.
Then, there's the Dual-RNG cards. These cards have 2 elements that dictate its end result. An example of this are the Ogres such as Mogor the Ogre, Ogre Brute and Mogor's Champion. These cards have 2 RNG walls they must pass before their end result is visible. They must first pass the 50% chance to hit the wrong minion, thus involving RNG, then in the case that they miss, they must now choose which minion they attack, thus involving RNG once more. In this way, they have Dual-RNG effects. Another great and simple to understand card with the Dual-RNG effect is Tinkmaster Overspark. A long time ago, before it was nerfed, it used to be a Singular-RNG effect card, but ever since it was nerfed, it became a Dual-RNG effect card. How so? Well, RNG first decides which minion gets transformed, and once that's done, it THEN decides what it transforms into, thus RNG is at work here twice.
For the longest time, I believed that as long as the cards they made fell into these two categories, RNG wasn't a problem. They could try to dazzle me with fancy RNG effects all they wanted but I knew that even cards like Dark Bargain, all of the Spare Part cards and Nefarian would one way or the other be either Singular or Dual.
...
But with WoG... they just had to move a step closer towards... insanity. "3 Old Gods have passed", I thought, "they were okay." C'Thun was singular, N'Zoth the Corruptor too was singular, even Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound was singular... so the last one... Yogg-Saron was it?... he'd be singular too, at best a dual... but... Yogg-Saron, Hope's End ended all the hope I had in the RNG system revolving around Hearthstone. Like a galaxy-wide lightning bolt, he struck my computer screen, (metaphorically) shattering it into a million pieces. As I read its text, I thought to myself, this has to be an April Fool's Joke. It has to be, wh-what is this?! This can't be ... but the date was the 8th of April. APRIL THE FREAKING 8TH.
So, roleplaying aside, what is Yogg-Saron, Hope's End exactly? It's quite definitely not a singular RNG effect, nor is it a dual one. Well, long story short, Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is an Infinitely Expanding RNG effect, Hearthstone's first too. Since, before playing Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, you can theoretically play an infinite amount of spells, thus, Yogg-Saron, Hope's End will trigger an infinite amount of RNG effects. Imagine loops and circles of singulars, duals, or even quadruple effects, all elegantly designed into one master plan of absolute chaos. What I like about the card is certainly that it blows my singular and dual theory out the window. Blizzard's shown me that they can literally make anything, that there's nothing bounding them, and with the digital format of Hearthstone, that is to be expected. It keeps me excited to see what springs up from behind Ben Brode's devious laughter, while also fearing the unpredictable.
All in all, while this card might just make you insane, it's one quite interesting and I hope we all get the chance to try it! ;)
Dunno about your RNG categories, what I DO know is that programming Yogg Saron must have been a BITCH.
And with Raven Idol it decides at random what mode to be in, and then makes a random card choice from that mode. And just like a good Lovecraftian Elder God Yogg-Saron will make you question your sanity. I love the flavor of this card so much. You relinquish all control over to him.
There is only "Singular RNG", "Dual RNG" is something that you create to make easier your understanding.
EX: The "ogre mechanic" - 50% to attack the wrong enemy
If your ogre has 3 targets he has 50% to hit the one you have chosen, and 25% for the unchosen ones.
The same is true for Tinkmaster,
If he has 4 targets each target has 12.5% to became a squirrel or 12.5% to became a devilsaur.
The same is true for Yogg-Saron, only the math is a little bit more complicated (I think it is 93 spells and some can choose a target) but, all in all still RNG just changing according to the number of targets (it's one hell of a big equation).
Therefore RNG is only one, the chances can be different though.
Yea I forgot about Lorewalker Cho but even with him players will fatigue at some point limiting the number of spells
Yogg-Saron, Hope's End will trigger an infinite amount of RNG effects
No, only 40.
1) It chooses a spell from the pool of spells.
2) It chooses target if it's a target spell.
The amount of choices is not random. The amount of targets is not random. This card still fits your definition of dual rng.
The exception, perhaps, would be "choose one" spells like Wrath or perhaps something like Crackle, but this is more of spell pool issue rather than Yogg Saron's one.
This card suffers the same issue Lorewalker Cho does, you cannot guarantee that overall benefit will be yours, so it's not dangerous balance wise.
"The light shall burn you!" - heals face.