Hearthpwn

### N'zoth Fatigue
# Class: Rogue
# Format: Wild
#
# 2x (0) Preparation
# 2x (0) Shadowstep
# 2x (1) Blackjack Stunner
# 1x (1) Togwaggle's Scheme
# 2x (2) Dirty Tricks
# 2x (2) Evasion
# 2x (2) Sap
# 1x (2) Swindle
# 2x (3) Cloak of Shadows
# 2x (3) Coldlight Oracle
# 1x (3) Dancing Swords
# 2x (3) Deathlord
# 2x (5) Rotten Applebaum
# 2x (5) Sludge Belcher
# 1x (6) Flik Skyshiv
# 2x (6) Vanish
# 1x (9) Valeera the Hollow
# 1x (10) N'Zoth, the Corruptor
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#
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my ver

imo Khartut Defender is shit because 6 mana is too awkward, Rotten is 5 and Sludge is 5, feels so much more flexible along with coming out one turn earlier.

Blackjack is strong; 1 Mana Sap. -1 Swindle for +1 Dirty tricks. Basically same card, but helps Blackjack be consistent.

 -2 Labs. Might start including 1x Lab again though, to help against Flik in Rogue matchups. Zoth & Shadowstep > (8 mana next turn) > Zoth & Lab same turn for 10 mana. Is a decent 2 mana drop outside of Rogue matchups, can create decent board threat alongside 1x Dancing Swords.

Just 1x Dancing Swords is really nice, as it keeps your taunt/non-taunt ratio higher than 2x Swords when you play Zoth. Swords can spawn 2x Swords on your second Zoth though, and feels really good. Even though you draw way more and fatigue faster, it helps opponent catch up in draw, and it can be viewed in theory as like: Swords draw for opponent is the equivalent of extending turns you had Togwaggle in hand during the fatigue stage. It helps you ultimately outlast them on fatigue.

Sludge is the same number of taunts as Khartut but cheaper. 5 mana enables you to play two of either Sludge or Applebaum from hand on turn 10, as well as being able to play two with Valeera's shadow cards. I think the general philosophy behind Khartut is bad, because you're spending more mana, emptying your hand slower, and taking more damage on average on turn 5 than: the +2 healing it provides over Applebaum; the +6 healing provides over Sludge. Therefore I think Khartut is bad because it's really too slow. The mana also means you have to wait until turn 10 to do Prep Vanish Taunt, instead of turn 9.

There's also no good argument for Khartut in the fact that you summon 2 of them per 1 played when you Zoth, because A) Sludge also does this, B) the deck doesn't struggle late game, and is usually extremely overwhelming for opponent. Therefore loading more power into late makes no sense compared to fixing early with Sludge.

Couldn’t you just make your own deck? Or a link to it at most. That’s not really a version of my deck, it’s just a different deck. If you like summoning belchers, fine. And no, you do not get 2 belchers for 1 played with n’zoth, so that’s false. You get two taunts. Khartut gives you 4, and 1 khartut is 18 hp restored after playing n’zoth 1 time. That “+2 health” is very misleading since n’zoth summons 2 khartuts and just 1 Applebaum. An Applebaum, therefore, is just 8 restored health. So khartut is +10 hp and an additional taunt for 1 extra mana. Still, go on about how it’s much better than khartut. If you make the argument that “well 5 mana taunts can be played with valeera.” Okay, go on about how you like your games to last forever.  I think I’ll stick to khartuts in a world where secret mage exists. Also, prep vanish taunt is a terrible play. You should put taunts to block minions not apply pressure.

It's almost exactly the same. What? 

Sludge is interchangeable with Khartut, Wand is interchangeable with Blackjack, Secret Passage is interchangeable with Dirty Tricks, -1 Tog and -Lab is a stylistic/preference choice; I've always seen different preferences on decks like these when it comes to Gangup/Tog/Lab.

Every other card is there. What are you on about mate? XD

You get two taunt bodies with Sludge/Khartut. With the fact that there's more HP on Sludge's Taunt bodies. Like what. Why do you fail to abstract my statements to theory and extrapolate to the principle? It's not hard.

You don’t get it. N’zoth summons 2 WHOLE khartuts so it’s FOUR taunts, not 2. You can only get two belchers back if you waste an entire 10 mana on it. And no, changing 10 cards in the deck makes it a different deck. Having 66% of the same cards makes it the same archetype, but a completely different deck. You want to make suggestions? Swap maybe 5 cards at most. Not 10

Oh you're right I don't get it. I'm fucking retarded. Sorry.

BUT I still think sludge and applebaum being 5 Mana is better since you obviously aren't keeping zoth on mulli, for both reasons of coming out earlier and having two to play when you are at 10 mana but can't get zoth. I always found myself overhealing with khartut after playing zoth, and struggling in aggro with it. Sludge is better in a vacuum.

The idea with sludge is that when you ultimately play zoth, you have endured lower HP-loss-per-turn up until that turn when you play him, because you absorbed more damage with Belcher, as well as the fact my ver had like two more taunt bodies. The purpose is to help against reach the opponent might have from hand that ignores taunt, on the turn you first zoth. The deck does NOT struggle once you've played zoth, but does early. There's lots of "dead turns" I had with your ver of the deck where mine was actually able to do something.

Therefore the theory I'm applying is that, although khartut & zoth is high quality in a vacuum, the value of that interaction is better sacrificed and spent helping it's atrocious early.

I see khartut is win-harder, I see sludge as lose-less. This is what I was frustrated at you not valuing and the point still stands.

Also no, that's not how that works. The deck is the same regardless of the amount of cards changed because A) you look at win-con; exactly the same. B) you look at the curve and effect of the changed cards; our curves are almost identical and so are the played card effects of the cards in question. Wand thief had the intent of getting removal spells. Blackjack is removal, just like how a combo card requires something played before it Therefore it's the same deck....

But blackjack is better....

If we applied your logic to deck building using your claim of this making it a different deck, "optimizing a deck list" literally couldn't be a thing that exists. But it does, so...

Maybe you’re right about your deck being better, but that doesn’t mean much to me since I don’t play this deck. I play the other one. That’s why this one hasn’t been updated. Armor vendors will be guaranteed to be included and will help a lot vs. aggro. As for stunners, I’ve tried them and found that I don’t need more single target removal, wide boards are the biggest issue. That’s why I had wand thief in this list because it provides a way to clear or freeze the board. Dancing swords is a joke. Don’t even try to tell me it’s good with n’zoth, because you just said the deck is strong enough once you play n’zoth, which makes the “extra turn” it buys you irrelevant. Just put another shuffle in your deck, or you’ll lose if it’s at the bottom. I find your deck to be utterly unplayable and boring since you can’t shuffle coldlight into your deck. You know how terrible to play mill rogue is without shuffling coldlight? Oh yeah, it’s playing 20-30 minute long games with n’zoth, not actually milling anything terrible. In the occasional matchup where you shuffle coldlight, then it means you can’t shadowstep coldlight or you will just get 1 n’zoth and dead to any kind of board clear. Your deck is fatigue rogue, not actually able to mill consistently.

Anyway, my non-n’zoth mill rogue is strictly better than any version of n’zoth mill rogue now that armor vendor exists, so don’t really care that much. 

> Oh yeah, it’s playing 20-30 minute long games with n’zoth

why do you even bother making decklists if you're a timmy though

I like making decks because it’s fun and I like seeing people’s thoughts and experiences playing the deck. Telling me a deck with 10 different cards in it isn’t your experience with my deck and it’s more frustrating than not because there’s probably 100+ n’zoth mill rogue decks on the site that yes, are similar in win condition, but no, that does not make them the same deck. If you don’t like the way my deck plays that’s fine, but I like making the changes myself after hearing what works and doesn’t work for people. If you tell me why something doesn’t work or what the deck struggles with, I’ll figure it out and update the deck. If you have it all figured out already, then make your own deck list.

k

Just did a quick search of decks that contain n'zoth and cold light Oracle. So clearly they have the same win condition. 21 pages of decks. I guess they are all the same decks, right?

Isn't Secret Mage an auto-loss?

No. I beat secret mage about 40-50%. It’s a worse matchup than most for sure, but it’s far from auto-loss. I’ve also not been using this version as much lately, so it’s not up-to-date with armor vendors like it should be.

today got legend with this deck, have few replacement but core cards remains the same

That's awesome! what did you end up switching? I've been playing the other version mostly when I've had time, so not sure how the deck could be optimized yet.

this one, dont have flik so replace with tenwu, and actually not bad, cuz coin deathlord trade then tengwu for full health deathlord wins the game vs aggro, or as additional shadowstep, add brann cuz shadowstepped brann + 3 murlocks is 12 card which is insane otk combo in late

was playing this and another version from m3s, cuz sometimes resurrect priest have mass dispell to rekt your nzoth turn, but this one perfectly kill all the priests, you can check it too, more mill than value

https://twitter.com/m3s_ru/status/1345834029061464066

Ah I see.  And yeah that list looks similar to my original, just a few different cards that I experimented with at some point and switched around.