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My prediction is that Rouge will get a card that will multiply her Deathrattle minions on the field, something like Sowing Seeds 4 mana spell summon two 1/1 copies of a Deathrattle minion to your field. Cards like this would probably explain why Sylvanas had to be moved to wild.
Although with The Caverns Below it might be too strong.
Great idea but too slow. You don't really know, everyone called Shaku garbage but it's in a tier 1 deck.
It only needs to be revived once to basically give 10/6 worth of stats for 4 without any other cost (playing 4 cards in a row being rather positive tempowise, and the plant comes back at that precise moment where you take the upperhand by dumping your hand). The card is balanced, has a lot of potential, is perfectly suited for the Rogue playstyle and refills a spot in the curve that's loosing Pillager.
Yet people are criticizing the card and complaing about Rogue having "bad legendaries", literally a month after founding how good Shaku is in Aggro Rogue AND hipstering about how they "knew it from the start". Except everyone trashed Shaku when he got announced.
I'd say "wtf guys", but after having been a Rogue main for so long I'm actually not surprised at all. Rogue cards are just doomed to be treated like shit until they break through >_>
Let's just clear out one thing. 5/4 for is the agressive standard for 4 drops. So a recursive 5/3 ISN'T weak. With that kind of mindset, you'd literally look up to Shredder if you had to judge it today...
I agree, weedovore. This card is lowkey really strong and a great replacement for the lost 4 mana slot when Pillager goes. Burgly Bully and the flytrap will be stepping up for rogue.
OK, weedovore, correct me pls, if you find my statement for being false. A recursive 5/3 for 4 mana is pretty good, miracle rogues can often find a way to play 4 cards in a single turn, but here comes my "but" and here I would like you to correct me: imo this minion looks rather fragile. Three health is not something that I can call sticky, a small removal or a small minion can kill it easily. Let's say Lightning Bolt or a Frostbolt, or Flame Imp for a minion. The plant goes dormant and waits to be revived. So here begins the problem: you have to play 4 additional cards to revive him, when you do, he is still a 5/3, which will attack on your next turn. I'm just curious if it's worth it to bring back a 3 health minion, would it be better if the devs reduced the price to 3 cards? Yes, if you make a strong board with those 4 cards then you will get a "free" 5/3 and your opponent will be in trouble dealing with your board presence; also you shouldn't overextend it when it's not needed - I get that.
Presumably, the cards you play in order to revive Sherazin have value on their own. In that case, Sherazin is essentially eating your opponent's removal for free. Maybe that makes it safer to play your Edwin VanCleef or Questing Adventurer.
i won't call the loss of light removals crucial for the opponent, because he will save his hard removals for edwin and questing; without the stealth in standard edwin and questing are naked and ppl will use their best removals on them, trust me; in order for the plant to "eat" the removals, he has to be revived constantly and, back to my case, I don't think that spending 4 cards every turn is worth to extend the value out of this legendary
Presumably, the cards you play in order to revive Sherazin have value on their own.
I am aware of that and i mentioned it in "Yes, if you make a strong board with those 4 cards then you will get a "free" 5/3 and your opponent will be in trouble dealing with your board presence"
@Kovachut
We'll all easily agree that if you had to play 3 cards instead of 4, the card would be way more busted (since it's basically an Auctioneer-Prep-Spell turn, which is the most common thing you'll be doing if you play Miracle) ;)
Now let's have a look at the cheap answers you're mentioning : sure they are cheap, meaning the individual 5/3 bodies aren't that sticky by themselves against the right answers. But every one of them costs a specific card, that migh have been used before to kill the first Sherazin, or simply not fall too far behind on the board. The obvious conclusion is that Sherazin produces more value every time you bring him back. So even though the 3 health are a weakness against cheap spells, those cheap spells still aren't all that perfect, since they cost a card, you have to DRAW that card, and you can't have a bagillion of them because of the deck limitations. The perfect answers would actually be Sheep or Hex, which cost about the same mana cost as Sherazin, and are some forms of hard removal (I guess we wouldn't extend to say that cards like Sherazin are weak to "transform" hard removals, because nearly every creature in the game is and saying it would be pointless ^^).
Once again, let's clear out that "playing multiple cards in one turn" isn't a cost. You're getting the full advantage of playing those cards; Sherazin is just an extra payoff. And as everyone knows, Rogue is the most ideal class to play those multiple cards and gain tempo off of it.
I'll finish with the tempo point : as I mentioned a second ago, Sherazin comes back whenever you play your 4 cards, and the key is to understand the meaning of those all-in moments in a traditionnal Rogue game. Because Reno is going out of standard, I'll not talk about Reno Rogue, even though it's a very interesing deck ;)
In Aggro Rogue, the moment you dump your hand is usually whenever you want to go for the kill and use your burst damage. If you can kill the opponent right away, Sherazin didn't produce much but you already won. What's interesting with Sherazin is being able to setup a much more resilient 2-turns lethal, which is a play you generally start on turn 5/6, if your hand is full of burst damage that you couldn't use to play a "fairer" back-and-forth game. Though, I wouldn't be too affirmative on Sherazin being excellent in Aggro, because it depends on you ability to have enough cards in hand and another 4 drop could be preferable if your deck demands it ( right now for example, Shadow Sensei takes the cake because you have a bunch of Stealth minions, and the +2/+2 tempo swing on turn 4 is very valuable).
Imo, Sherazin is at its best in Miracle Rogue for 3 reasons : firstly, Pillager is going out of Standard and the deck needs some cards to play before the Auctioneer turn to fight on the board (of course if we focused only on that role, Naga Corsair would be better but it's not the case ;).
Secondly, Sherazin can come back the turn you play Auctioneer (I do think it would require a refined build though. Since Conceal is going out, I'd predict a build with 2 Coins, and a few more 1 mana spells like Deadly Poison and Journey, which would lead to a more midrangy Miracle instead of the cheaty one we see today). This is very interesting because Auctioneer is pretty weak on ist own AND a key target, so having an extra threatening body would really help maintaining pressure the turn you play your Auctioneer.
Lastly, once you've refilled your hand with Auctioneer, playing 4 cards per turn for atleast 2 turns becomes really easy, and at that point you're developping your key threats or exhausting your opponent. Thus, Sherazin becomes really difficult to deal with in the late game, and the pressure of its 5 attack continuously threatens your opponent or helps you deal with those pesky Taunts.
All in all, Sherazin is apparently able to help out Miracle Rogue at any point of the game, and does it in a grindy, balanced yet powerful and tempo-oriented way. That's why I really like its design and don't think the 3 Health are gonna be much of a problem : because the card isn't made to survive, it's made to put pressure and chip away ressources from your opponent's hand along the whole game :)
Sorry if you found my answer too long, I just though it would be useful to explain my whole point since you are open to a constructive conversation =)
It's my turn to write a novel <3. I will start by thanking you for your time and for your detailed post, in which many people, including myself feel interested and will find it really helpful. You won me on different points, which I didn't consider earlier, but you also opened some questions in me about the future of miracle rogue.
First is first, let's begin with the points you convinced me that Sherazin is more than a plain plant:
"The obvious conclusion is that Sherazin produces more value every time you bring him back. So even though the 3 health are a weakness against cheap spells, those cheap spells still aren't all that perfect, since they cost a card, you have to DRAW that card, and you can't have a bagillion of them because of the deck limitations." + "and at that point you're developping your key threats or exhausting your opponent. Thus, Sherazin becomes really difficult to deal with in the late game, and the pressure of its 5 attack continuously threatens your opponent or helps you deal with those pesky Taunts"+ "That's why I really like its design and don't think the 3 Health are gonna be much of a problem : because the card isn't made to survive, it's made to put pressure and chip away ressources from your opponent's hand along the whole game". There is more to this, but these were the points I didn't consider.
Tbh I had mixed thoughts about Sherazin, when I first saw him, I also thought that it was well balanced and has potential to be a good card - I don't want to sound hypocritical, I blame the meta I'm used to and being narrow minded considering fast cards to be its best answer (constantly facing pirates ruined me, what can I say). I just thought you will need something stickier early on. I like how the devs make rogue even more combo oriented - not just with plain combos like "deal (more) damage", "buff a minion", "spawn a token", but now they tend to make those combos rather trickier, which I really welcome. So I hope that they implement more cards based on Sherazin's mechanic.
That said, I would like to go to my questions and my concerns about miracle rogue. Like we know Pillager is going to wild and that opens two 4 mana card slots in this type of deck. Imo the Pillager is the equivalent to the hunter's Savannah Highmane. 1) Good stats for its mana cost 2) the deathrattle is good too. You can use the coin to buff questing, VanCleef, to draw with the Auctioneer or just for the sake of more mana. And here begins my concern: Is Sherazin the needed replacement for this card; if the Pillager didn't went to wild, will there be any free slot for Sherazin? Now don't get me wrong, you explained it in your post really detailed but I'm still going to put this here. After its death Sherazin needs cards to be played and that won't be that easy in the miracle rogue. This may sound silly, considering the fact that rogues, especially m. rogues can always find a way to draw, but let me explain myself. So the Pillager goes to wild it with that rogues lose 2 free coins, which synergize with the draw mechanic of the Auctioneer. Meaning that after Sherazin's death you can play 4 cards without the need of the auctioneer, you can play him later on and you will be able to once again play 4 cards, but here comes my "but". There is no conceal anymore, which means that the auctioneer is vulnerable (or as I like to call it naked) to any form of removal and the draw mechanic will be slowed down. Not only for those 4 cards in a turn, but also to draw your deck (to get leeroy and burst). If left unanswered Sherazin will do those 5 damage, but imo the loss of the auctioneer in this case is more significant.
Talking about conceal going to wild, how are you going to protect your buffed Vancleef, how can you guarantee the face damage? I also don't like this cheating technique, but it is what miracle consists of. And that's why I'm going to ask: does m. rogue REALLY need Sherazin? I think, that they rather need cheap spells for consistency. Maybe it's too early to speak for the future of a class, when there is only one card leaked, but like i said I was just curious.
So to comprehend - the m. rogue deck is the perfect home for Sherazin, but can it be said the other way around? You say yes, I say dunno. We will see.
Anyway I just wanted to put down that Sherazin can be super great in wild, more specifically in mill rogue - after vanishing, if it's in dormant state you can play coldlight oracle and you easily start each turn with a board, while your opponent is struggling.
This looks like a terrible card. I wouldn't even value this card as a rare let alone a Legendary. As a Rogue player I'm very disappointed in this.
Not really liking it.
Seems pretty harsh for its requirement. At first sight I though this was common.
Miracle N'Zoth Rogue possible now?
This card reminds me a lot of Vengevine from MtG. It's even a plant too! In terms of playability, it honestly seems pretty good. Even in an average Rogue deck, getting a free 5/3 when you have your Edwin VanCleef turn seems great, and getting to 4 cards a turn can be pretty easy. Just going Swashburglar - Shadowstep - Swashburglar gets you 3/4 of the way there, is neutral in terms of cards spent/cards gained, and only costs 1 mana. Xaril, Poisoned Mind helps it out a lot too. And if nothing else, it's a fun Shadowcaster target. One to watch for sure.
For reference:
In this world, it's kill or be killed!
Oh my god, that is so great :D
flowey <3; hope they make this as a flavor text
This has a similar concept to anun'burak, but this card is actually worse than anun'burak in that it somehow manages to be slower.
Well, not really. You already get value off of the 5/5 for 4 mana, and the text of this card suggests it can attack immediately after you revive it