Hearthpwn

rip watchpost, nerfed too soon :(

This is so, so good.  They have to remove it or else.  And it has decent stats.  And it always gets its effect off once.

Oooof!! That is how you make a strong card to interact with combo. As a combo player, I much prefer softer hate - stuff like Loatheb that temporarily makes spells cost more, as you need to judge when to use and, as a combo player, if you can play around it with the hand etc.. This is extremely harsh hate that can't really be played around - similar to Gnomeferatu, but not as bad (depending on what it hits). This will sometimes wreck combo, sometimes whiff, and as the opponent, you can't really tell. 

how to play around this card: kill it before the second turn its out, not really that big of a deal for combo decks as they have lots of removal (dh for example) its more anti aggro/zoo imo

A lot of combos rely on exact mana costs - a tax of (1) will be brutal if it's on the wrong card. Does depend on what the combo decks look like, but this feels like it could be harsh.

this is 1 mana 2/4 taunt at least. OP

Mill Rogue?

This into Gift of Luminance!

control is getting the tools to fight aggro this set, looking forward to see whatever weird shit yall make with these tools.

THIS IS THE WAY YOU PRINT DISRUPTION CARDS BLIZZARD

Honestly I don't feel confident enough to call this great or trash but 1 thing is for sure: THIS is the way you print healthy disruption cards, the "disrupted" card is still playable, you're not removing anything...you're just ANNOYING them....I LOVE IT...yet OTKs or just simply strong synergistyc combos become more awkward to pull off.

EDIT:

wow, I think this is my most liked post, ty everyone for the positivity :)

 

Post barrens edit:

It appears the card was quite good...and quite annoying as predicted. I kinda missed the mark on the "disrupt OTK/combos part" as (at least in wild) this is used to enable aggro pally exclusively, I've seen it pop up here and there in slower standard decks too but I don't know enough about standard to say anything. Still this doesn't change the fact that, as a concept, THIS is the only way disruption is not toxic in HS (aka opponent's stuff costs X more, up to 10). Now let's hope it comes back in the next expansions/minisets to replace rat/[REDACTEDTUS] BS completely (print it as battlecry,deathrattle,frenzy,end of turn,OVERKILL it doesn't matter) 

This is a mild disruption. Prepare to get Tickatused to oblivion.

what I believe you were trying to say is:

"this is the only non toxic way to print disruption as that concept  (together with mill/OTK etc...) is a tumor spreading among card games at an alarming rate"

I can understand your typo there, given that you willingly play [REDACTEDTUS] this is the least I expect from you in terms of mistakes

Get over it chap. Even in MTG where there's a graveyard, there are disruption cards tha exile cards. 

You're salty because you're trying to play a (greedy) heavy midrange deck that you refer to it as "control" and Tickatus is particularly good against these type of decks. Or perhaps a combo deck.

Years in card games, taught me to quickly get over such "frustrations".

ok so:

First of all...no...stop assuming you know what people play because (spoiler alert) YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT...it is precisely because I play non greedy, non midrange, reactive decks (main focus is always survival) that I believe mill/disruption/OTKs are toxic to the game as NONE of them can be reacted to/survived and the only way to beat them is SMORC (aka you force someone away from an otherwise legit deck/playstyle into a playstyle they don't enjoy, which is a ballsflappingly stupid design philosophy).

Secondly while I never played MTG I am at least familiar with some  of the mechanics so: in that game (as far as I've heard) you have ways to actually interact with and react to these kinds of strategies making them a mistake still....but an acceptable one (ALSO if this happened to be wrong and MTG were to lack consistent ways to interact with this stuff that STILL wouldn't mean anything as a mistake is still a mistake, no matter how many people make it). Hearthstone on the other hand lacks even the most basic tools to interact with these kinds of cards/strategies AFTER they are played and, since counterplay is at the core of healthy game design, this makes the game not suited to print this kinds of cards (without making them toxic which kind of defeats the purpose).

 

THIS card (Far Watch Post) on the other hand is not only what disruption (or even mill to an extent) should mean but it is also the only way a mechanic similar to that is ever healthy in HS.

Also as a sidenote if disrupion/mill worked ONLY like I suggested in the previous paragraph I'd VERY likely play and enjoy those styles  as they fit my "annoy them to death" playstyle quite perfectly.

Jeez, you won't live long like this, mate. 

You should play MTG then. It doesn't treat players like special snowflakes, with their special decks. Instead, it punches you in the face for even thinking that your "cool" "reactive" Hearthstone-esque deck is going to make it every time.
Disruption has many forms and discarding cards is one of them. I suppose the graveyard mechanic is what makes it balanced, but still there are decks that don't interact with graveyards a lot in MTG, so I consider this a situational arguement. To me getting Tickatused is as annoying as playing Big Priest in Wild against Mages and Shamans. Suddenly your pool is fool of frogs and sheep and irrelevant minions and your expensive ressurects have no value. See? That's perspective. Now, should I say that transform effects are unhealthy for the game? Because as Tickatus destroys your "reactive-deck's" win conditions, so does devolve destroys a Big Priest's win conditions (And no, you can't win the game when you spend 7-9 mana to summon 2 murlocs and a pirate). 

I suggest that you play MTG in order to get over it. There are plenty forms of disruption that can make it to Hearthstone and some have already made it in. 'Member Shudderwock? Good luck if he manages to pull off half of the deck's shenanigans. You'd be furious too. But Shudderwock isn't in Standard, that's why you can't cry about it.

And in all honesty. How often do you meet warlocks on the ladder? How often do they play Tickatus? And how often you actually lose immediately? Having played Tickatus decks at their best forms, I can tell you that they are a bit clunky. Unless you're playing against a completely pathetic reactive player, chances are that you will be stomped. Even in Wild some combo decks can escape you. Remember that Tickatus can be played as early as turn 7 (coin). Quest Mage can win by turn 6. 

So your arguements are valid from your self-centered perspective, but that perspective does not reflect the game in whole. Personally, a card like Zephrys is far more stupid than Tickatus. It can save you from nowhere and it can pull a win condition from nowhere. Does that mean that Zephrys is bad design? It is certainly worse than Tickatus, but is it unbalanced overall?

wow you REALLY want to defend these shitpiles huh? here we go then (my apologies people from the future visiting this card's page...this will be quite long)

 You should play MTG then. It doesn't treat players like special snowflakes, with their special decks. Instead, it punches you in the face for even thinking that your "cool" "reactive" Hearthstone-esque deck is going to make it every time.

Well why do you think I DON'T play MTG...I'll let you figure it out with this 2 clues:

1)these are card games, and as such you are supposed to be able to play your cards

2)I like when both players have a way to react to what the other is doing AFTER he's done that, it makes it more fun for both parts when you get to play your cool combo/card and when you manage to power through the BS....I enjoy counterplay what can I say...

Disruption has many forms and discarding cards is one of them. I suppose the graveyard mechanic is what makes it balanced, but still there are decks that don't interact with graveyards a lot in MTG, so I consider this a situational arguement.

this is precisely what I said, the only reason that it's acceptable in MTG is thanks to mechanics like graveyard that keep it SOMEWHAT interactive for MOST decks that would lose to it

To me getting Tickatused is as annoying as playing Big Priest in Wild against Mages and Shamans. Suddenly your pool is fool (*full.....dw tho, I'm not the kind of bitch that points out typos to discredit points, this is just here to insult those who do that) of frogs and sheep and irrelevant minions and your expensive ressurects have no value. See? That's perspective. Now, should I say that transform effects are unhealthy for the game? Because as Tickatus destroys your "reactive-deck's" win conditions, so does devolve destroys a Big Priest's win conditions (And no, you can't win the game when you spend 7-9 mana to summon 2 murlocs and a pirate).

wrong argument:
1)as a big priest you have ways to kill your first minion of each type to make sure it is in the rez pool
2)you have TONS of ways to cheat out copied minions
3)mage/shaman do have transform effects but they have WAY less of those then you have threats (unless shaman wants to go ULTRA all in and lose all other matchup...that would be toxic too btw)
4)the newer big priest lists are not even THAT scared of devolving effects as they run 9/10 drops almost exclusively

So [REDACTEDTUS] is an uninteractable autowin vs any reactive/low pressure deck unlike transform effects that only give other decks a fighting chance to react to or kill big priest (also a decent big priest player will wait until he has had enough good minions die before he starts resurrecting) so...nice try but no.

 

I suggest that you play MTG in order to get over it. There are plenty forms of disruption that can make it to Hearthstone and some have already made it in. 'Member Shudderwock? Good luck if he manages to pull off half of the deck's shenanigans. You'd be furious too. But Shudderwock isn't in Standard, that's why you can't cry about it.

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSION OLD MAN?
Did I not JUST ask you to stop assuming when you clearly don't know shit? I play wild ever since Frost Lich Jaina (my favourite card in ANY card game) got rotated out and I can assure you that I hated the Shudderwock combo as it (like all other shitpile OTK/mill/infinite decks) ran an uninteractive train through anything that did not apply meaningful pressure throughout the game. It's not popular now as it is slower than basically any other combo deck in the format. (as a sidenote, I love the card, I think that without the "summon X copies" minions it would be one of the most fun cards in HS hystory)

 

And in all honesty. How often do you meet warlocks on the ladder? How often do they play Tickatus? And how often you actually lose immediately? Having played Tickatus decks at their best forms, I can tell you that they are a bit clunky. Unless you're playing against a completely pathetic reactive player, chances are that you will be stomped. Even in Wild some combo decks can escape you. Remember that Tickatus can be played as early as turn 7 (coin). Quest Mage can win by turn 6.

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSION OLD MAN?
Did I not JUST ask you to stop assuming when you clearly don't know shit? I play wild ever since Frost Lich Jaina (my favourite card in ANY card game) got rotated out.
Wild is where the card gets even more toxic thanks to either Brann Bronzebeard or Zola the Gorgon (or both if you're a bitch). How often do I meet warlocks? Quite often actually...painlock and zoolock are not uncommon, how often do I meet a warlock with [REDACTEDTUS]? Not much, only every single time I find a renolock so...100% more times then I should

Unless you're playing against a completely pathetic reactive player, chances are that you will be stomped.
Gotta love the "pathetc" thrown in there just to point out how much you hate counterplay...really helps get your points across. let me ask you this: why should there be cards that prevent you from playing an archetype?

Even in Wild some combo decks can escape you. Remember that Tickatus can be played as early as turn 7 (coin). Quest Mage can win by turn 6.
never said he's the only problem and also this proves you do not even read what I write as I clearly included OTKs into the toxic mix as they are also unreactable.

So your arguements are valid from your self-centered perspective, but that perspective does not reflect the game in whole.
So this line is so perfectly incorrect given what I discussed earlier that I won't even repeat myself.

Personally, a card like Zephrys is far more stupid than Tickatus. It can save you from nowhere and it can pull a win condition from nowhere. Does that mean that Zephrys is bad design? It is certainly worse than Tickatus, but is it unbalanced overall?

Zephrys the Great is one of the best cards in this game both in powerlevel and design: if used well it can get you out of *most* situations...BUT ONLY ONCE, it can find lethal for you BUT THE OPPONENT KNOWS THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE AND CAN DO EVERITHING IN HIS POWER TO PLAY AROUND IT, it can be a decent curve play if you fancy that for some reason and so much more...but it is never an automatic win, only a strong asset that gives you a good advantage. It is certainly a VERY powerful card but one that both players can play around with 100% consistency if they are good enough so... nice try but this is factually wrong.

It is certainly worse than Tickatus
you certainly know how to make people lough....Now is Zephrys the Great a stronger card then [REDACTEDTUS]? ohhh abso-fking-lutely but stronger does not mean toxic, actually in this case it's quite the opposite:
[REDACTEDTUS] is a toxic shitpile card PRECISELY BECAUSE it is not as strong as Zephrys the Great, if it was then it would have gotten nerfed to the ground as it would be both unfun AND super strong. As it now stands, from a purely balance prospective, the card is balanced, even weak maybe since it is a liability vs aggressive decks and an autowin vs slower/reactive decks.... but the faster decks are (by nature of HS) usually more popular. HOWEVER this doesn't mean it's a healthy card since it is encouraging "queue up--->identify opponent archetype--->either concede or watch them concede" which is..dare I say...not fun...I personally like to play the game not flip a coin to see who wins.

Wow, man, you certainly won't live long and many years. 

I too play Mage decks with Frost Lich Jaina as a win condition and some of them are highlander decks, meaning that I include Zephrys. And I also play highlander Warlock decks, that include Zephrys and recently I excluded Tickatus. Wanna know why? Because it was a bad card against the majority of meta decks. In order for Tickatus to work you have to include cards like Felosophy, Brann Bronzebeard etc. Way too many cards that actually ruin your chances against meta decks, like Darkglare and Secret Mage, which by turn 8 have flooded the board, and have brought you down to 14 health, even though you've played Reno Jackson. So I was looking that Tickatus on my hand and I said to myself "Ain't gonna win with this card". To take a small win here and there (and not exclusively because of Tickatus) against a controlish or combo deck, isn't worth it. So I keep Tickatus for fun/casual shenanigans. Zephrys the Great on the other hand is a card that gave me free wins out of nowhere.

Excuse me, but this design isn't supposed to be faulty, but Tickatus is faulty? Sure, I was skeptical when this card got out, but it isn't even that strong. Which means that not many players will include him, especially if the metagame will continue to have aggressive decks, or stompy decks, like Darkglarelock. 

So the only thing that this card MAY prevent, is the existence of a slow control meta, which honestly would be boring. Even though I play actual control or heavy midrange decks, I don't like meeting them often as opponents.

That's why your arguements, are self-centered and whiny. You don't see anything else beyond from what you actually experience in the game. But people who actually use Tickatus will cease from using him, I guess. You just need to learn how to lose. And I am not talking about conventional defeats against an "honorable match-up versus a control deck. I mean to lose against all possible bullcr@p that there is in Wild. And get over it.

As for the flip coin... welcome to the world of EVERY card game EVER. 

Well, would you look at that, it only took you like...what....57 million lines of text but you finally stopped assuming what people play....progress ;)

Now that I'm done with the obligatory petty starting line that appears to be a ritual in your discussions:

First of all, in order to get [REDACTEDTUS] to work as an autowin vs slower decks you only need either Brann Bronzebeard or Zola the Gorgon which are 2 cards many renolocks would run anyway as they have many valuable minions that they'd like to play more than once. Yes,these are useless vs the strognest decks in the format (as they seem to all be aggressive unless I'm forgetting something) but that has never stopped renolocks from running AT LEAST 1 of the 2 (usually Zola iirc).
The more I read your posts the more I'm convinced you don't actually read mine: I specifically stated that [REDACTEDTUS] may even be a weak card and I am by no means saying he's the ONLY problem with the format (far from it actually but let's not go TOO hard in depth). What I AM saying however is that printing a card that can single...card...edly obliterate an archetype (ANY archetype mind you, it just so happens that the more reactive decks are more prone to getting dicked on by card design) is objectively bad for the game.
I also saw a line that gave me quite the chukle: "To take a small win here and there (and not exclusively because of [REDACTEDTUS]) against a controlish or combo deck"
Now from a superficial prospective that MAY be seen as true but:
Vs combo decks: you also have Dirty Rat and (SOME versions run it,at least the ones I've seen) Gnomeferatu but if the combo deck did not win yet (which CAN happen I admit) [REDACTEDTUS] is the more likely one to get the job done.
Vs control decks: [REDACTEDTUS] does not kill them directly obviously but his effect is slightly more subtle, you see renolock (the only deck I see running this card nowadays) has some meaningful pressure of his own with its huge boards,early manacheating and powerful deathrattle minions. Now normally your generic controlly deck is built in such a way that it can whitstand those boards BUT in order to win a value war vs them you need to match them card for card, you need ALL of your removals, ALL of your threats, ALL of your value generators AND (sometimes, happens more often than you think) you ALSO need a fatigue advantage (or at least not disadvantage) to outlast them after you (fking somehow) managed to resist all of its boards. Now this was perfectly fine, actually enjoable games that had both players able to react/threaten and the winner is (barring RNG BS) the one that,quite literally, played his cards right. The existance of [REDACTEDTUS] means that 1 or more of these requirements automatically fails making the matchup near impossible...if not completely impossible depending on various factors, now is [REDACTEDTUS] the one actually killing you? No BUT he IS the reason everything else managed to kill you as HE took away the resources you need to match a control lock (and don't even TRY to bring up the "cards in deck don't matter, just imagine they're at the bottom" argument, yes SOMETIMES the games will end earlier if they highroll but a control lock's pressure isn't THAT fast an matches are OFTEN decided by nearly the entire deck).

Now onto Zeph:
Your "wins out of nowhere" came from literally the most predictable part of HS: the basic/classic sets, do you maybe not know what's in there? Because if you do know what Zephrys the Great can give them...it becomes SO much easier to know what to expect and play around it accordingly. The powerful part is the flexibility but that is just the mark of a strong card (VERY strong card mind you), not a "fk your archetype" card.
I will not deny that Zeph is a VERY powerful card BUT there is NO (otherwise viable) deck/archetype that gets invalidated by him (unlike a certain 6 mana 8/8) AND every time he saves you or kills the opponent it's something that your opponent could have played aroud by ether saving enough reload or clearing/healing (there ARE situations where that may not be possible but that's with EVERY strong card...take Loatheb as an example).

You literally said it yourself, [REDACTEDTUS] is a "fk your archetype" type of card, and these are NEVER healthy. You said it may prevent a slow control meta and I say it makes sure NO reactive deck will ever see itself being meta because this idiot is there ruining its fun (I know it's not the ONLY one but you seem to argue mainly toward defending it so I'm using it as a "main" example). Now do I WANT a "slow control meta"...no, not at all...I just wish decks like those were playable, and [REDACTEDTUS] (together with other cards but let's not go TOO in depth) makes sure they are NOT.

My arguments come from the PoV that every archetpe should be realistically playable as long as it doesn't invalidate something else. To give you an example deathrattle/DKrexxar hunter in the boomsday/rasthakan era was one of, if not my favourite deck to play against AND IT WAS A HARD COUNTER...so why was it my favourite? Well it's because vs them the matchup was "realistically winnable" as you COULD power through the bullshit, however [REDACTEDTUS] matchups are more along the lines of "if I get lucky enough maybe I can bullshit myself out of this one" which is...dare I say...not fun.

As for the flip of a coin...I may have expressed it poorly so here we go again:
the metaphorical coniflip is supposed to happen during the game..where you have ways to "influence" its outcome AND you can enjoy yourself playing a game that is not already set in stone. When the coinflip happens BEFORE the game starts...now THAT's when problems start to arise.

See, this is where you're wrong. You keep composing such big essays in order to hide that self-centered world view from which your arguements stem. Allow me to elaborate.

Claiming that Tickatus-esque cards (from card design perspective) are bad for the game or any card game is your subjective opinion on that matter. By no means this should ever be translated as objective, yet you're doing it, hiding behind long essays (which I read, but even though you seem to read mine, you keep declining the truth, which revolves around the unfounded claim, that this shouldn't be considered objective.

In other words (hope you get what I mean this time): "I don't like this type of card design and philosophy. Therefore it must be objectively bad." Now as long as you remain in the first sentence and agree to disagree with me, we're fine. But trying to persuade me that this is objectively bad for the game, won't get you anywhere. It looks like as if you're trying to degrade me and hundreds of other players who LOVE playing disruption decks (every archetype Mill/Discard/Counter/Prison). And for some reason, these disruption decks that feature destroying your opponent's deck are part of almost every decent card game, keep getting printed and now even Hearthstone got more serious and started printing such cards. So, all of us who enjoy it, plus the designers who print those cards (even in limited numbers, which is agreeable and understandable), are objectively wrong, because Carfusso doesn't like this design philosophy. Because this is exactly what you're writing in those essays. And everytime you deny this allegation you're simply losing your credibility. Because your texts are there, mate. 

I brought up Zephrys the Great as an example, which you may have noticed, to show you that even though I personally don't like this card, I said [quoting myself]: "Personally, a card like Zephrys is far more stupid than Tickatus. It can save you from nowhere and it can pull a win condition from nowhere. Does that mean that Zephrys is bad design? It is certainly worse than Tickatus, but is it unbalanced overall?". I said this on purpose to show you that even though I do not agree with the design philosophy of Zephrys and generally of the design of "pulling a rabbit from the hat cards" (which includes the majority of discover cards), I accept that it is NOT A BAD DESIGN overall, without having you point me out the "positives" or "how Zephrys hasn't destroyed archetypes". 

That is our main difference. Even though I wouldn't mind players who simply don't like card destruction and even though I would call them pussies, who can't accept things in their lives (which leads in me assuming what they play), but I would never say that MY opinions are objective. 

And by the way, so far, you seem to put random elements from your head. "Big Priest can always kill the first big minion" "it has tons of ways to avoid devolve/transform cards". What are those ways? Are we even playing the same game? Have you ever actually played around 200-300 games with these archetypes to have a significant amount of experiences? 

You think that the world revolves around you and that's why you keep claiming that cards like Tickatus are objectively bad. 

Now I can discuss with you, all you want until we reach to the point that we agree to disagree about Tickatus. But if you keep claiming that this is OBJECTIVELY bad and that Tickatus is the holy grain of bad design philosophy, you'll simply lose even more of your credibility.

At least I don't force down your throat my opinions as objective facts, jeez.

Ok fine, I'll clarify some points as apparently my opinions got in the way of clarity about what I meant:

Before that though there is 1 thing you said that I REALLY can't stand: It appears you think I'm "hiding" behind big essays.
Now the sole reason my posts are this long is because I despise those that "read into" what others say instead of taking things as they are written/said (goes both ways btw, meaning I also hate those that write/talk like that) so I do everything I can to make sure nothing of what I say can be "left to interpretation" (I often fail,like in the previous post apparently, but hey...I try).

Now (finally) here we go:

I understand how I may have been...not fully clear on what I meant as I failed to draw a decent line between "I hate it/ I think it's a mistake/not fun" and "objectively bad design" so, to clarify: even though I hate and despise mill/OTK/disruption as concepts from the bottom of my heart and (if I had the power to do so) I would immediatly cancel them from human memory I do understand that there are those who like playing them (which is the reason why they are printed) HOWEVER what is an undeniable indicator of bad design is printing things that invalidate otherwise viable archetypes/playstyles as that forces people to either play in ways they don't enjoy or stop playing altoghether, you are effectlively killing diversity in your own game, one of the worst mistakes a developer can make since...well...less people play.
Contrary to other games however HS, given its nature , has a slight problem: mill/OTK mechanics often inherently do that (to higher or lesser extents) as the only way you have to interact with those decks (aside from RNG fiestas of "did Rat work?" which is...dare I say...not fun, wether you win or lose to it) is "kill them" which forces people into styles that either they don't enjoy or that some decks simply can't do with any amount of consistency.

On the "random elements" part:
Yes, given that I play wild exclusively ever since rise of shadows I HAVE met my fair share of big priests so I can safely say:
big priests CAN kill some (all was a bit much that's true but still...) of their first minions if they play things well, they do run removal after all and I've seen a few (that waited a couple turns to get mana) use it in a smart way by (e.g.) killing their own Archmage Vargoth or some copies of stuff from Shadow Essence immediatly (coincidentally, these are the games I actually lose vs them as they make sure they have a decent rez pool that I can't "pollute"). Even if that happened to not be possible though, they can also wait to get more good minions into the rez pool to improve their chances after you used your transform effects, maybe by playing or summoning copies of them or maybe with Eternal Servitude allowing them to chose the "not trash" ones before they start using the random resurrection cards.
Also I never said they can AVOID those cards, these are still REALLY good tech cards in the matchup, I did however say that nowadays big priest is LESS AFFECTED by DEVOLVE EFFECTS as they almost only run 9/10 drops. Now am I denying the fact that is is still VERY annoying and a pretty steep loss of power for them...no, not in the slightest, I'm just saying that it's not as much of a free win as you suggested.

Last small thing is that you STILL chose to ignore the fact that I never once claimed [REDACTEDTUS] is "the worst designed card" or "the biggest problem", it is merely the example you chose to defend mostly. Now is it my personally most hated?...well...idk honestly,but it's very close...what bugs me about it is that you can simply just put it in any control lock without even building your deck around it in the slightest and BAM congratulations, you now automatically win vs any deck that tries to survive your threats, you made yourself more vulnerable to aggression yes but still you get to autowin some matchups so...who's really losing here?.