Ben Brode on Classic, Formats, F2P Legend, and Asks a Community Question
Earlier today, we posted an article which brought to attention Ben Brode's comments on possibly rotating cards from the Classic set into the Wild format. He has since come out to address concerns some players have with it and to open up the conversation. We feel it's important to highlight, from Ben:
- Classic is the most powerful set in the game.
- Nerfs to a few Classic cards still keeps the "evergreen" set stable.
- The Classic set introduces players to the game and lays down generic Warcraft flavor.
- Standard is designed more for players who like to see a fresh meta whereas Wild will change less often.
- Charge was nerfed due to the Grimy Goons mechanic being added in Gadgetzan.
- New players should continue to be able to reach legend after the changes as F2P players are still able to reach Legend after all the 2016 nerfs.
- Not every card in the game is targeted for competitive play.
Ben Asks: Do you prefer some evergreen cards to be nerfed, rotated to wild, or kept in Standard even if it results in a staler meta?
Quote from Ben BrodeOur intention is to keep Basic and Classic evergreen. This does have severe disadvantages if cards from Classic end up making Standard fail at its goal of being fresh each year. It's feedback we've been hearing since the introduction of Standard: 'This isn't enough - we will eventually end up in a stale Standard without additional changes.' And we've always said that we didn't consider our work here 'done'. If Standard is at risk for becoming stale thanks to the evergreen sets, we'll consider additional nerfs. This isn't the first time we've said this, and we said it even before Standard launched. We've reiterated it over the past year: http://www.pcgamesn.com/hearthstone/hearthstone-standard-2017-nerfsAssuming both avenues resulted in full dust refunds of the affected cards, would people prefer:
- Nerfs
- Rotation to Wild (like Old Murk Eye)
- Staler Meta in Standard
Please leave the Classic Legendaries Alone
I should add this is a general question about all Classic cards and not specifically about Legendaries. We're not sure which cards would be the right ones to target, if any, just yet. (Source)
Quote from Ben BrodeJust create a Core Set finally.
We have a core set - it's called Classic. Is there something you're pitching that Classic isn't doing for us? (Source)The entire point of classic was to have a stable base set on top of the basic set.
There are close to 400 cards in Basic and Classic. Nerfing a few of them, or moving them to Wild, still keeps a stable evergreen set. Also, that isn't the entire point of Classic. It introduces players to the game at a slightly lower complexity level. It lays a baseline for generic Warcraft flavor (Hogger, Mukla, etc). (Source)Now you are admitting that retaining classic was a mistake, and instead of rotating it out. We are just going change cards and bend it to where it is no longer a complete set by rotating out random cards and... what!? Just rotate Classic out!
We believe there are real benefits to an evergreen basic and classic set. What we are talking about is very similar to the 12 nerfs we made when Standard launched, to help it succeed in its goals. Standard needs to be fresh each year. (Source)Blizzard doesn't like that F2P players are using classic/basic cards all the time and when making their decks so they want to nerf those cards to oblivion in order to force them to spend money/gold on adventures/expansions pack.
That's just not true. Some players like it when Hearthstone has a fresh meta, where you can explore new deck types. It's one of two reasons we introduced the Standard Format (the other was making sure new players wouldn't have to collect every card ever made to be competitive). Wild is going to change a lot less often. Some players like that too. But we have a commitment to keep Standard fresh and ever-changing. We've been hearing a lot of feedback that Classic and Basic as they currently stand are a real threat to that. (Source)And then when F2P players finally found a way to reach Rank 1 with a cheap OTK Warrior deck, they decide to nerf Charge while saying "omg guiz u have no idea how gud dis iz!!!11".
I see you took the time to look up my exact quote! :) We nerfed Charge (the spell) because we knew the upcoming Grimy Goons mechanic in combination with Enraged Worgen and Charge was not really fair or fun. There have always been F2P players at Legend, and there have continued to be since that change. (Source)Almost all cards that get nerfed (or "changed" as Blizzard likes to put it) never gets played again.
Maybe you're intentionally exaggerating, but you can count 'em and it's not "almost all". And not every card is targeted at competitive play. We do intentionally make bad cards. Here's a video, if you're curious about some of the reasons why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ioY1KO79A (Source)love how you're trying to put out the fire created by greed :) it's not working to well though, why not just be honest & tell everyone you are rotating out good core cards because you want new players to pay up or be 100% irrelevant? :) why lie about it? "fresh"? gimmi a break.
We did this in 2016 when we nerfed 12 classic cards and it made a huge difference in how much the meta was able to change with the release of Old Gods (instead of just continuing to be Druid Combo). New players were able to reach legend without spending money after that change, and I expect that will be continue to be true if we change a few more cards in 2017. (Source)I don't understand why can't they just buff cards? What is so drastically different that they can nerf cards but they can never buff anything?
If you're curious about some of the challenges and other thoughts about buffing bad cards, I made a video a while back about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ioY1KO79ARIP any good cards in classic.
Classic is by far the most powerful set. Nerfing 12 cards in 2016 didn't change that. A few more in 2017 probably won't either. (Source)
Blizzard needs to explain how this won't snowball out of control. I don't mind a few changes here. But rotating out cards and nerfing cards everytime it reaches the limit of whatever arbitrary metric Blizz has in place is scary. I refuse to play if they kill decks like miracle and freeze mage as well. Neither of those archetypes are limiting or suffocating or can't be countered. Even edwin van cleef can be dealt with by silence if he is overbearing in the meta. Removing those cards will ensure I never return.
They really need to see how the meta shakes out after rotation thpugh before they go crazy with nerfs again. Killing blade flurry when oil was leaving was a pointless change that only killed an archetype of rogue from ever seeing play again. Don't make that mistake again.
Give us a core set for standard in 2017. It can be made up of mostly classic and basic cards, but allows selected classic cards to be rotated into wild and some wild cards can return to standard. Rotate the classics that have over stayed their welcome like Gadgetzan auctioneer, azure drake and frothing berserker. Let us keep the cards that we are not ready to loose like Reno Jackson. The core set can be updated yearly or more often if needed. The core set replaces classic set in the store. Just don't ruin good cards with nerfs. The classic molten giant would be great to have back in wild, meanwhile arcane giant exists and makes the nerfs pointless.
BEST solution:
Have a Core Wild set -- and a Core Classic set.
Move cards between them each year, or twice per year.
Add some rotated expansion cards to the classic set, sometimes, instead of moving cards from the core wild set. Let the Wild set grow.
Buff cards where necessary.
Seriously: If a card isn't played in 0.05% of decks or more -- 1 in 2000 -- just freaking give it some kind of buff.
Don't need a buff. If let's say warsong commander would rotate to wild and give the 3 or less minion charge it'll bring back one of the most skillfull decks ever- Grimm patron OTK) and.. won't distrub noobys in standart. This can be done with a lot of nerfed to unplayable cards..
They share design insights and get pummeled with toxic questions. Can people not ask the same questions in a more respectable manner. No wonder Blizzard is reluctant to talk to their gaming community.
Here is a series of good questions I think would do much more to get your point across. Are you aware the F2P friendly OTK Warrior deck which took many to Legend was nerfed to a point where it is no longer competitively playable? Can you understand that it is upsetting when F2P players find good decks that they get nerfed so quickly? How will Blizzard ensure this trend does not continue so F2P players don't feel forced into buying expansions and packs with money to be competitive in Hearthstone? Will other Standard/Basic cards be buffed to offset the reduction in power of standard/basic?
pls don't nerf!!! pls, pls pls, I still miss Handlock
As a Handlock player the Molten Giant nerf made me basically quit the game. If you're gonna kill a card, then just move it to Wild instead. Nerfing something Classic so it's unplayable just punishes the people that liked the card, Wild is a mess anyways and you have more or less admitted that balance doesn't matter there so just put the cards there if you wanna keep those players whose card you want to trash.
Right now I think blizzard first of all should be reworking the automated matchmaking system. Recently started my acc in a different region, and with the bonus packs etc.. I managed to make a viable hunter deck. But when I wanted to level up the other classes like paladin ( was level 1) I got matched against high value decks like jade Druid, dragon priest, midrange shaman, tempomage etc.. With not a single card missing. In other terms, if you're a new player, and managed to get somewhere on the ladder with one deck, you'll get punished playing casual aswell for the rest of the month...
right now the new player experience is very bad, and I'm actually not sure if I could recommend this game to a new player at the current state, even though it's probably my favorite game... Feelsbadman
Ben Brode is talking about rotating some classic cards out for freshness, and sweet Hearthstone community want to keep even Reno Jackson in Standard forever. There will be salt everywhere. SOON!
RIP leeroy FeelsBadMan
*clap**clap**clap* Thank you Ben Brode.
Maybe it's ok to move some classic cards to wild, just to keep standard like fresh. Those who wanna fun can play wild. But it's a problem for new players cuz they have to spend to much money on it.
Blizzard should make like welcome standard/wild for new players, or just enable buying gvg, naxx and others... I dunno it's just my opinion
Can they use their brain for 5 minutes and notice that many of the dominate decks are not even using classic cards?? The most cancerous deck Pirate warrior is mainly using fiery win axe, south sea deck hand, and mortal strike are the main issues. Of all of them only south sea is the problem. I really hope they don't make a bunch of classic cards worthless.
THUS MAKING THE GAME MORE PAY TO WIN THAN BEFORE MISSING THE WHOLE POINT. Not to mention Tavern brawls are giving classic packs which is meant to help F2P players and then you decide to nerf the cards you are giving?
Is the team mental? Fixing these problems only makes free to play harder wtf?!
And guess what, if Blizzard starts fucking over new and existing players that roulette is gonna spin longer and longer.