Ben Brode on Classic, Formats, F2P Legend, and Asks a Community Question
Earlier today, we posted an article which brought to attention Ben Brode's comments on possibly rotating cards from the Classic set into the Wild format. He has since come out to address concerns some players have with it and to open up the conversation. We feel it's important to highlight, from Ben:
- Classic is the most powerful set in the game.
- Nerfs to a few Classic cards still keeps the "evergreen" set stable.
- The Classic set introduces players to the game and lays down generic Warcraft flavor.
- Standard is designed more for players who like to see a fresh meta whereas Wild will change less often.
- Charge was nerfed due to the Grimy Goons mechanic being added in Gadgetzan.
- New players should continue to be able to reach legend after the changes as F2P players are still able to reach Legend after all the 2016 nerfs.
- Not every card in the game is targeted for competitive play.
Ben Asks: Do you prefer some evergreen cards to be nerfed, rotated to wild, or kept in Standard even if it results in a staler meta?
Quote from Ben BrodeOur intention is to keep Basic and Classic evergreen. This does have severe disadvantages if cards from Classic end up making Standard fail at its goal of being fresh each year. It's feedback we've been hearing since the introduction of Standard: 'This isn't enough - we will eventually end up in a stale Standard without additional changes.' And we've always said that we didn't consider our work here 'done'. If Standard is at risk for becoming stale thanks to the evergreen sets, we'll consider additional nerfs. This isn't the first time we've said this, and we said it even before Standard launched. We've reiterated it over the past year: http://www.pcgamesn.com/hearthstone/hearthstone-standard-2017-nerfsAssuming both avenues resulted in full dust refunds of the affected cards, would people prefer:
- Nerfs
- Rotation to Wild (like Old Murk Eye)
- Staler Meta in Standard
Please leave the Classic Legendaries Alone
I should add this is a general question about all Classic cards and not specifically about Legendaries. We're not sure which cards would be the right ones to target, if any, just yet. (Source)
Quote from Ben BrodeJust create a Core Set finally.
We have a core set - it's called Classic. Is there something you're pitching that Classic isn't doing for us? (Source)The entire point of classic was to have a stable base set on top of the basic set.
There are close to 400 cards in Basic and Classic. Nerfing a few of them, or moving them to Wild, still keeps a stable evergreen set. Also, that isn't the entire point of Classic. It introduces players to the game at a slightly lower complexity level. It lays a baseline for generic Warcraft flavor (Hogger, Mukla, etc). (Source)Now you are admitting that retaining classic was a mistake, and instead of rotating it out. We are just going change cards and bend it to where it is no longer a complete set by rotating out random cards and... what!? Just rotate Classic out!
We believe there are real benefits to an evergreen basic and classic set. What we are talking about is very similar to the 12 nerfs we made when Standard launched, to help it succeed in its goals. Standard needs to be fresh each year. (Source)Blizzard doesn't like that F2P players are using classic/basic cards all the time and when making their decks so they want to nerf those cards to oblivion in order to force them to spend money/gold on adventures/expansions pack.
That's just not true. Some players like it when Hearthstone has a fresh meta, where you can explore new deck types. It's one of two reasons we introduced the Standard Format (the other was making sure new players wouldn't have to collect every card ever made to be competitive). Wild is going to change a lot less often. Some players like that too. But we have a commitment to keep Standard fresh and ever-changing. We've been hearing a lot of feedback that Classic and Basic as they currently stand are a real threat to that. (Source)And then when F2P players finally found a way to reach Rank 1 with a cheap OTK Warrior deck, they decide to nerf Charge while saying "omg guiz u have no idea how gud dis iz!!!11".
I see you took the time to look up my exact quote! :) We nerfed Charge (the spell) because we knew the upcoming Grimy Goons mechanic in combination with Enraged Worgen and Charge was not really fair or fun. There have always been F2P players at Legend, and there have continued to be since that change. (Source)Almost all cards that get nerfed (or "changed" as Blizzard likes to put it) never gets played again.
Maybe you're intentionally exaggerating, but you can count 'em and it's not "almost all". And not every card is targeted at competitive play. We do intentionally make bad cards. Here's a video, if you're curious about some of the reasons why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ioY1KO79A (Source)love how you're trying to put out the fire created by greed :) it's not working to well though, why not just be honest & tell everyone you are rotating out good core cards because you want new players to pay up or be 100% irrelevant? :) why lie about it? "fresh"? gimmi a break.
We did this in 2016 when we nerfed 12 classic cards and it made a huge difference in how much the meta was able to change with the release of Old Gods (instead of just continuing to be Druid Combo). New players were able to reach legend without spending money after that change, and I expect that will be continue to be true if we change a few more cards in 2017. (Source)I don't understand why can't they just buff cards? What is so drastically different that they can nerf cards but they can never buff anything?
If you're curious about some of the challenges and other thoughts about buffing bad cards, I made a video a while back about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ioY1KO79ARIP any good cards in classic.
Classic is by far the most powerful set. Nerfing 12 cards in 2016 didn't change that. A few more in 2017 probably won't either. (Source)
I prefer them to be rotated to wild, so standard gameplay can have less cards. less is more.
I agree with moving cards instead of nerfing them too. Card like Old Murkeye doesn't need to be nerfed and would be worse in arena as if it isn't already. Moving it into another format that's filled also with crazy combo cards is an appropriate place for it to be played.
I totally agree with your statement, I would have loved playing a normal not nerfed yogg in wild,
The question is if they don't want to improve shitty cards on the classic set then why do they bother to nerf over used cards in classic. They can also prevent a staler meta if they print more cards that are diverse as well as have synergy with some of the unused cards of the classic set. Just saying that the meta is stale because classic cards are used is so lame. The set has more cards than any other set so cards from the set are bound to see more play. If they really want a diverse meta they should improve the class cards of lessplayed classes so that all classes would see play. This will result in a more diverse meta.
Way I see it, if classic cards are nerfed instead of buffed, more expansion cards will be played, thus resulting in a fresher meta imo.
So much salt. Salt, everywhere.
At least Blizzard is communicating with the players now and it really shows that they are trying. We've been getting some insights and updates often last few days. They did listen to our complaints and polls and I think I can be happy about that part.
I hope the community becomes bit less salty now and give Ben Brode some respect he deserves.
Speaking of respect, did you notice how he cherry-picked the poorly worded, angry-looking questions only instead of the DOZENS of well thought-out posts about HS's ongoing problems?
You know, so they sound like the "reasonable, smart guys" and the people criticizing some sort of groveling little kid?
Ok, so now all the talking regarding classic and standard, in which they guaranteed we wouldnt loose our classic cards, is just in a sink hole.
No, no, and no!!!
I dont care about what they do to fresh up the meta, but moving classic cards to wild is just dropping out their word on this matter. So how can I trust something/someone that acts like these? This piss me off in a manner, i cant really explain. Its about loosing my trust in the product i bought and it wasnt cheap.
I like this game a lot. One can say it is my favorite at the moment. I play in 2 accounts, 1 ftp and 1 ptw. Ive already spent more than $1000,00 bucks in this game, so I think I have the right to have a product as it was selled to me. Seriously, I will sued Blizzard for a full refund on my ptw account.
Before messing with me just consider some of my thoughts about how fixing the game.
I would totaly understand if they ban cards to wild for 1 expansion season. As soon as they add another expansion, the cards come back. Thats the last I can accept. Periodic bans.
Another solution that can go along with this or not, is to create another classic set. You can adapt it to the meta and give some options equivalent to the classic set.
One more thing is to have another game mode. Just like tavern brawl, but just 2 sets and 1 adventure are alowed. It would be similar to standard i the begining, but when wild sets increase, that could create a brand new meta. No classic set on this one.
Finally, nerfs has always helped the balancing, so they could continue it but without turn cards unplayable.
Cheers,
You realized this is a video game right? its not like you bought a car? yes we all spent our money and we spent even more than you... just to be clear.. but its a GAME not a car they have the right to balance out the game instead of it being overpowered and dumb and no one will play it...
I dont wanna keep playing the game for years if i have to deal with fireball/innervate/and more more lots of basic cards every year...
Basically they print new cards. in standard you put fireball+innervate almost in every deck, whats the point of standard then if its the same archetype and gameplay? i would love to see alot of new cards be played each year instead of 1 deck 1 card 1 archetype...
Standard would be so much amazing if they rotates everything out to wild, and just fresh new cards. instead of classic/basic sitting in standard for ever..
Fireball/innervate as an example btw, the same goes with shamans.. you put hex in almost every deck.. warriors firey-war axe.. and go on... its just dumb this has to be gone for good...
On the other side, If they would add too much good cards in expansions, it will be another gvg/naxx, when most cards are just broken.
Dude, did you get my point? or whats is your problem..
Learn to read before you flame others real fast...
I said im tired of facing fireball/innervate/firey war axe/hex/shadow ward death....
This is standard to me all those cards should rotate to wild... do you enjoy having those cards in every single deck Each expansion/advanture no matter what?? innervate is a must card in all type of druids. in every single meta you will see this card being played in a Druid... the same goes with warriors FIREY WAR AXE.. same goes for shamans HEX.. is a must in every single deck...
the archetype is the same each year.. just new cards Barnes/yogg oh so amazing/yet you will still play HEX in your control sham deck because its too good...
did you get my point? we need a fresh meta... new cards new expansions/ advantures that rotates each year or whatever... so we dont get bored of standard....
Do you work at blizzard or do you work for blizzard? When you say WE its just like a company talking to me. Just like blizzard!!
when a company sells a product and tells this will be available in x, its the word im considering when buying. If otherwise i will take it to court. Simple as that. Yes they can and should balance the game as long as i can still use the product as it was selled to me. In this case , classic cards available for standard mode. Thats what was selled to me. Create a new mode, whatever... But classic should be available in standard.
Reagarding fireballs and innervates, I wonder what would a new player play? Everything that isnt on a power level of chillwind yeti or below is not played after a few months on this game. so the few basics playable cards should be banned? Whats the point of this set than? The only thing that can fix this without harming the set or the playability for newcomers are periodic bans, since their nerfs are a disaster. Nerfing just kill the card forever in both wild and standard. An addition classic set would be sweet. But creating 140 cards in an expansion in which less than half are playable doesnt help. Blizz has some work to do!
you dont need to face these cards everytime, if the go in and out of wild mode, which I believe is the best solution.
I think nerfing the classic set is a dangerous idea, as it's really hard to evaluate it's power based on it's power alone. For that we would need to only play with classic cards for a while to get an accurate picture. For example, Rockbiter weapon was never considered a problem until the age of aggro shaman. Until then, Doomhammer was seldom even played, and never as a 2 of in a deck. When I started Hearthstone, Doomhammer was considered a cheap replacement for Al'Akir. Now it's nerfed forever, when cards like Thing From Below and Tunnel Trogg are much bigger factors. When those rotate out, if shaman doesn't get good synergistic cards, it will be back in the dumpster even farther than it was before Tunnel Trogg was realeased. Additionally, nerfing just feels bad, right? We have decks we can never play again, even in Wild, because Molten Giant and Force of Nature don't exist in a playable form, anymore. And lets be fair, Handlock was a lot more fun and tricky to play than Renolock. It makes me sad that I can never play that again.
I also am not fond of moving the classic set to Wild. Honestly, I'm not for moving select cards to Wild either, but if I had to live with one option, that would be the one I hate least. I believe very much in having a base that everyone can relate to and we can encourage new players to go to. In my hearthstone chat group, we just invited a new player. It was good to have a path that we could guide them along. Buy classic packs, do your quests, arena, etc. How is the new player experience going to get any better, if we don't have a base to start from.
I like your argument, you've actually got a lot of reasonable critiques. I wouldn't say handlock should be counted out though. The only card nerfed from that was molten giant so I'm hopeful we'll see something close enough to handlock in the future.
We need new game modes, or a game mode "creator" to have fun things to play vs friends. Stuff like decks with different numbers of how many cards can be in them. Can make it so you can only make decks with common and rare cards, or common and epic cards. Another fun game mode would be a mode where you can only use basic/classic cards with only one other set of cards, such as Karazhan or Old Gods. It doesn't have to be for ranking to legend or anything, just something fun for people to have in the game.
If we could get one buff that I think really REALLY needs it, is King Krush. We never get to see him in action at all anymore. Maybe make him cost one less. Or make it so he is the same is he is now, but with a battlecry destroy an enemy minion with 2 or less attack. Something, whatever brings it back into play:/
And, if you want to ease some of the tension to the players who are raging about classic cards getting nerfed or moved to wild, you can at least give us another page of 9 more deck slots:)
An arena mode that could be played all the time would be awesome! Good idea dude:)