Hearthpwn

Hmm, I would like to point out my post (just below this one it's post #54) with a bunch of data and math that gets into how much gold/rewards from the Rewards track (F2P style).

I understand many don't like the rewards track, but don't come in with emotions where data does more for your argument.

I do agree that it's stupid that quests can't be completed in tavern brawls.

Now that I have that out of the way I am F2P so I look at things from that lense-
Here is some math that I did before, prefacing this again with I am not arguing for or against blizzard I am just providing data!!!
(all the data is in the spoilers to save space all of it based on F2P)

First and foremost - check this article about the rewards track as quoted form Ben Lee:
https://www.pcgamer.com/blizzard-apologizes-for-hearthstone-rewards-mess-says-changes-are-coming/

Second here is a link to show the XP and time requirements to level upon the new rewards track (though as stated there are still unknown parts yet to come so this is only preliminary):
https://outof.cards/hearthstone/2200-the-rewards-track-how-long-to-get-to-level-50-644000-experience-required-to-get-to-level-150

MY MATH AND NUMBERS MAY BE OFF I AM OPEN TO CORRECTIONS

 MY MATH AND NUMBERS MAY BE OFF I AM OPEN TO CORRECTIONS

 MY MATH AND NUMBERS MAY BE OFF I AM OPEN TO CORRECTIONS

 Make your own conclusions as to whether Blizzard is greedy and taking your money, the data is out there.
Again I am F2P - my math is based on F2P game play.

Quote from Agithore >>

The ever-increasing dust costs are just compounded by how piss-poor the game's F2P options are. And the battle pass makes it worse in some ways instead of being a complete improvement. The fact that you can earn more Hearthstone packs by making gold in World of Warcraft for a few hours and converting that into Blizzard Balance instead of grinding XP in Hearthstone is a little ridiculous. 

 Dust costs haven't changed - The approximate value is 1:1 dust to gold. 
Common (Disenchant + 5 / craft -40)
Rare (disenchant +20 / craft +100)
Epic (disenchant +100 / craft +400)
Legendary (disenchant +400 / craft - 1600)
A rather odd argument since this is the same F2P or P2P - neither has a bonus compared to the other.

Battle pass - a previous post of mine on this thread (has spoilers) goes into some depth about the new reward track. might be a good read for you.

WoW gold being used for packs - to be more precise it's the wow 'token' that is being used for packs. The token is $20 through the blizzard store.
$20 is the equivalent to 15 packs through the hearthstone store.
The wow 'token' can be exchanged for 9 packs in hearthstone.
So the exchange of the wow gold (token) is LESS than what the (token) itself costs. (side note a wow token on my server in wow goes for 113,532 gold - depending on how you play the game that 'could' take a while to earn in WoW)

Now the fact you can earn packs (and by proxy dust) without playing hearthstone AND without paying money it seems they have made it easier for people to get cards they want/need.

I do have to say it's was refreshing to see a new perspective on the topic, thank you.

Shadowrisen brings up a good point...

What determines if the game is "too expensive"?

The cost of a pack is roughly $1.50 or €1.25

Now bundles/promos/reward tracks are all "bonus" purchases and are not necessary to move forward in the game (as a P2P person). Sticking with "JUST" pack purchases I ask this:

With only a $100 spending limit (or €82.49) which equates to around 600 packs through the in game store

If you are making $1500 (or €1237.31) a month - and put $100 (or €82.49) of that into the game is that too expensive?
If you are making $15,000 (or €12373.12) a month - and put $100 (or €82.49) of that into the game is that too expensive?

Once again coming from an F2P point of view! I don't pay anything to play this game...

What I don't have:
a complete collection.
many of the sets complete.
more than 3-4k gold at the start of a new expansion.
a ton of dust to craft with.

What I do have is:
3 decks I have crafted to play wild
1 deck to play standard.
A free legendary every season (possibly 2 with the rewards track)
13+ free packs between expac release and rewards track
No duplicates on rares and legendaries

Do I deserve more because I don't put any money into the game? NO!!!
Do people who spend money deserve more because they pay? YES!!! (however, if it gives them a direct increase to win rate then it's not fair, due to the nature of hearthstones game style)

If you only get your cards from people handing them out for free and don't go out and pay for what you want/need - then it's your choice.
It's not the companies choice if people spend money. It's the companies right and need to charge $$ for their services.

Is the game getting more expensive? I don't know because I haven't done any math or data collection to find out.
But just from my basic understanding of the world - yea - it's getting more expensive inflation is a world wide phenomenon.
Also, it's common business practice for businesses to increase prices on new / updated products (look at cars).
Even MTG raised it's prices over time.

Blizzard hasn't done anything different or worse than any other business out there - in my opinion Gas(petrol) stations extort their customers the worst, Blizzard hasn't done anything like they do.

Does it make the game more expensive - yes
Does it make it harder for some players - yes
Does it make it illegal - no
Does it mean they lied to you - no

If you understand how to run a business then you should be able to apply that knowledge to what's happening here. (I ran a table top game store for 11 years, one of our major products was MTG, so I have a fair understanding of how this works.)

It sucks when the prices don't match expectations - but just like any other purchase you must decide upon in life - you can choose to pay or not. That simple.

It's so nice to see how these threads turn to personal attacks - I mean that just shows how mature and capable people are to educate and continue with civil conversations, I applaud all you personal attackers.../s

Now that I have that out of the way I am F2P so I look at things from that lense-
Here is some math that I did before, prefacing this again with I am not arguing for or against blizzard I am just providing data!!!
(all the data is in the spoilers to save space all of it based on F2P)

First and foremost - check this article about the rewards track as quoted form Ben Lee:
https://www.pcgamer.com/blizzard-apologizes-for-hearthstone-rewards-mess-says-changes-are-coming/

Second here is a link to show the XP and time requirements to level upon the new rewards track (though as stated there are still unknown parts yet to come so this is only preliminary):
https://outof.cards/hearthstone/2200-the-rewards-track-how-long-to-get-to-level-50-644000-experience-required-to-get-to-level-150

MY MATH AND NUMBERS MAY BE OFF I AM OPEN TO CORRECTIONS

 MY MATH AND NUMBERS MAY BE OFF I AM OPEN TO CORRECTIONS

 MY MATH AND NUMBERS MAY BE OFF I AM OPEN TO CORRECTIONS

 Make your own conclusions as to whether Blizzard is greedy and taking your money, the data is out there.
Again I am F2P - my math is based on F2P game play.

TL;DR =
Too long
Didn't read

To ask someone to create a TL;DR post is to ask them to limit the articulation and specificity of their thoughts.
Which in turn can lead to misinterpretation and ambiguity.

Would much rather have a wall of text that explains things clearly than 2 sentences that explain little to nothing.

Disclaimer - I am not trying to prove anything, I am just trying to provide context between the old system and the new system

Since a number of people are bringing up the free packs and legendary as part of the Reward Track. Which I had not added in, as I was only looking at gold gain, gold gain which was used by many to increase overall ROI on playtime as well as to store up for purchasing more packs when the next expansion comes out.

Here is some additional math.

-

Packs are of course worth 100g

Dusting a pack of cards gets a minimum 40 (4 common + 1 rare)

Crafting cost for legendary is 1600 dust or 40 packs with the minimum amount of dust.

Which equates to 4000gp (using this math for the post as I work with worst case scenarios also why I stick with 50gp quests as a base)

Now, you are more likely to get a variable amount of dust over time when opening packs and from a multitude of sites it looks like the average is 100 dust from packs.

This now pushes the value of a legendary to only 16 packs or 1600gp

-

I would like to point out, that I am not here to say the Rewards Track is better or worse I am merely trying to provide context to what is gained from the New system Vs the Old system.

And math is the best tool (at this point) to showcase the differences.

As such I have to give credit to someone who did a hell of a lot more in-depth look into this than I did
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/245719-math-old-vs-new-reward-system-updated

-

TL;DR of the math I have seen so far only using 122 days played not taking into account amount of time 'supposedly' needed to reach certain benchmarks :

Minimum effort old system = 10,870gp (6,870gp through play + legendary from expansion release)
Minimum effort new system = 14,850 (5,550 + 13 packs + legendary from rewards track + legendary from expansion release)

Maximum effort old system = 22,300 (6,100gp from 50gp quests + 12,200 from 100gp win cap + legendary (ER))
Maximum effort new system = 24,300 (15,000 gp from leveling +13 packs + legendary (ER) + Legendary (RT))

(p.s. I have been doing this research in my spare time at work, so it's not as neat and detailed as in the link I provided above)

Quote from sahtradoog >>

Quote from Daulphas >>

Creating synergies is something that is viable - it's done in every CCG and ECCG I have ever seen.

That being said, My question for the OP, the idea of "forced synergy" does this mean you feel that Hearthstone, in it's current state, makes it difficult for players to create viable decks without using specific cards due to the synergies between them?

Personally the observation I have with "Forced synergy" is that only certain classes seem to suffer from that, however, that aspect is also what makes them top ranking. Odd-paladin, Kaza-priest, JadeDruid, (insert any deck named after a themed synergy).

Using secrets as your base does keep it simple, but that is a problem, synergies are necessary but how do you determine when it's a "powercreep" mechanic vs and actual good idea. Secret Mage, Secret Hunter, Secret Paladin, all classes using similar synergies does that mean all 3 should be nerfed on the synergy level?

What of dead synergies like Freeze Shaman, it's a dead idea, should it be fixed or removed completely?

I guess with all of these questions, I should pose this in a single question:
How would you fix it?

 I would need to spend a large amount of time analyzing in order to answer that question and frankly I am not that much invested that ill do that for free, so till the day that never comes that I get paid to fix the game ill just complain about the stuff I don't like and let other people sweat over how to fix it

 Love the candidness XD
Keep carrying on !

Creating synergies is something that is viable - it's done in every CCG and ECCG I have ever seen.

That being said, My question for the OP, the idea of "forced synergy" does this mean you feel that Hearthstone, in it's current state, makes it difficult for players to create viable decks without using specific cards due to the synergies between them?

Personally the observation I have with "Forced synergy" is that only certain classes seem to suffer from that, however, that aspect is also what makes them top ranking. Odd-paladin, Kaza-priest, JadeDruid, (insert any deck named after a themed synergy).

Using secrets as your base does keep it simple, but that is a problem, synergies are necessary but how do you determine when it's a "powercreep" mechanic vs and actual good idea. Secret Mage, Secret Hunter, Secret Paladin, all classes using similar synergies does that mean all 3 should be nerfed on the synergy level?

What of dead synergies like Freeze Shaman, it's a dead idea, should it be fixed or removed completely?

I guess with all of these questions, I should pose this in a single question:
How would you fix it?

First, thank you for pointing out the issue – as my original post stated
||My math and numbers may be off I am open to corrections||

Thank you for the average play time, I wasn’t sure how/where to get that.

-

As for the 3 month vs 4 month aspect that still doesn’t detract from the weekly XP gains from quests and achievements as was listed, it just changes the amount of time left after reaching level 50.

A player can still earn 14400 xp per week – and an additional one time 14800 xp boost.

At 12.59 weeks (round to 12 weeks considering the 14 minute addition) that leaves 4 weeks left to earn XP over and above the minimum requirement (lvl 50).

Which still leads to the same theory as before:
16 weeks with the old system and the LEAST amount of effort would earn you 6,870 GP

And at level 50 with the new system would earn you 5,550 gp (again the LEAST amount of effort)

In order to equal the amount of gold earned with the new system you will need to play to level 69
This is based on the 150 gp earned every level past 50. (6,870-5,550 = 1,320) (1,320/150=8.8)

The XP difference from 50 – 69 is 83,300. (279,500-196,200=83,300)
At the rate of 14400 xp per week that means it would take 6 weeks. (83,330/14400 = 5.78472)

We have a 4 week window from hitting level 50 again presuming you do so in 12 weeks.
If my numbers are still accurate enough then that means a 2 week difference or that of 300gp.

Does this seem more appropriate?

Quote from DropDeadCynical >>

Quote from Daulphas >>

MY MATH AND NUMBERS MAY BE OFF I AM OPEN TO CORRECTIONS

Here is some of my own Math presuming you ONLY go for level 50 -

 Well let's stop you right there to start with.  Just doing your quests and literally nothing else will get you to level 56.  Add in some reasonable level of play time as well and you're almost certainly looking at over level 60.

 I touched upon the lvl 56 range of XP in an earlier reply to Bengalaas, not sure if you saw it.
You are correct it is possible to get to lvl 56 in 16 weeks, I do not refute that point.

You also mention the aspect of reasonable level of play, the math being used in "most" scenarios is per hour. How are you personally determining "resasonable" play time?

Each person has a different amount of time they can (or choose) to dedicate to the game. So I am genuinely curious - this isn't an attack. As your input can affect the math.

I again based this off the LEAST amount of effort and gains. So yes this is based on re-rolling for 50gp quests.

Also - at 30 gp and an hour with xp gains as the link in the replies shows that makes the difference in Reward Track vs the old system even worse.
As I don't know the math for gp per hour I didn't use that form of calculation I just showed overall gold gains over a time frame.

It's interesting as well that this post is getting down votes, yet the replies that verify the post are getting upvotes. That's like congratulating the patient for a good surgery yet belittling the doctor who did the surgery...

Quote from Bengalaas >>

You're only doing one aide of the math, and then comparing it to level 50.

Assuming your example, 16 weeks of the minimum 11600 xp from quests is 185.600 xp

If we equate 3 wins per day to an average of 50 minutes of playtime a day for 112 days, that is 93.3 hours of play, which depending on the type of play can be 28000 - 37.333 more xp.

That will land you to level 54-56.

 This is the math I used from out of cards:

That gives us a total of 14400 XP per week and a one time boost of 14800 XP. With us needing 196200 XP to get to 50, we can knock that down to 181400 XP after the completion of achievements. This lets us solve the rest easy.

181400 / 14400 (XP per Week) = 12.59 Weeks

With it taking just over 12 weeks, that's roughly 3 months or the full duration of the pass. So if you play an hour of Hearthstone a day and make sure you complete your quests and achievements each week, you'll definitely hit level 50 to get that sweet alternate hero prize.

Also - at levels 54-56 you would earn 600 - 900 gp. That makes the Rewards Track gold earnings = 6,150 - 6,450

With the old system in 16 weeks with the LEAST amount of returns and effort gold earnings = 6,870

Thanks for the input, that only adds to the theorizing I have there.

Again let each person be the judge, but as it sits now - the new Rewards Track looks to be a loss in comparison to the old system.

even for the P2W players.