Hello everyone this is Jotto and welcome to the 2nd recap of the ManaGrind weekly tournaments, this week we had a very.......interesting development.....
So Mages.....
Eight Mages in both of the Top 4's... just count them: eight! We have never seen a class be this successful over both servers before and I suspect that it will be a long time before we see this again. So what does this mean? It raises some problems balance wise as the one thing you want to avoid is one class dominating and that is what has happened. So the real question is what is the problem here?
First of all let’s take a glance at the winning deck from both tournaments. What stands out is the shockingly low amount of draw power that this deck can get away with. It only plays Novice Engineer and Acolyte of Pain and shows the individual power level of each card which would be required to consistently win with this little draw in the deck. Let’s have a look at some of these ‘’power’’ cards that Mage has access to.
Minion wise the Mana Wyrm is the only Mage minion in the deck but backed up by the notorious buff minions it proves to be one of the single most powerful one drops in the game, even surpassing the Warlock one drops to some extent, with The Coin it is very easy to play Mana Wyrm on turn one andCoin out a Shattered Sun Cleric for a massive 3/4 on turn two along with the 3/2 Cleric. However it’s not only the Mana Wyrm that is putting in the beats in the early game, Argent Squire and Faerie Dragon function as some of the best early buff targets in the game and Harvest Golem closes out the aggressive openings with its bulky stats and two for one trading capacity. The late to mid game is then secured by the ever so reliable Argent Commander and Dark Iron Dwarf along with Defender of Argus and Sylvanas Windrunner.
While the minions are impressive, it’s the spells that make Mage aggro stand out of the pack of aggro decks, Mage aggro decks have on average 36 points of burn in spells, 36! Not to mention that just the pair of Pyroblast hold 20 of those points meaning that you can afford to burn some creatures for removal purposes and that the minions only need to do on average 15 damage for you to win the game, this makes standard anti aggro decks have a hard time against Mage as it is very hard to stabilize against the extreme amount of burn that Mages have at their disposal.
In conclusion while aggro is the metagame at the moment, arguably the most powerful deck and class in the game would be the Mage as they have a counter to other aggro decks in their spells and have the burn to brute force through the midrange decks and cantrip focused deck that the meta has to offer. So how do you play against mage in general?
Generally keeping your health above twelve/thirteen will keep you out of burn range. This can be done by using control spells to stop his aggression before he inflicts too much damage and most importantly using healing spells to negate the damage that he does inflict as you will not be able to stop all of it. By doing this you can stay out of Pyroblast range and set them up for a kill a couple of turns later. On a final note many Mages that do not play aggro decks tend to play giants and Alexstrasza so often setting up a quick kill is more effective than grinding them down.
Jotto
If you want to see more content by Jotto you can check out his YouTube channel or check out his Twitch stream!
the problem with mage is the fire blast ability, it give the ability to kill almost everything in the board and unlikely the druid one it pass taunts and don't take damage in return, also the removal spell of the mage is based on damages so it enhance that.
I'd say mage HP is pretty balanced, but some powers like paladin/priest need to be looked at.
the problem with mage is the fire blast ability, it give the ability to kill almost everything in the board and unlikely the druid one it pass taunts and don't take damage in return, also the removal spell of the mage is based on damages so it enhance that.
I'd say mage HP is pretty balanced, but some powers like paladin/priest need to be looked at.
Lol mage's HP is OP buddy, is the BEST hero power atm...and this is ONE of their many balance problems.
Priest HP needs to be looked at? NO FREAKING way. This is why priests dominate games once they drop a large creature, because they can heal it every single freaking turn. If you can't drop a card that can one shot a priest card, than it's basically game over. If a priest drops that 0/4 taunt minion turn 1, you won't be getting board control for a long while.
What bothers me the most is that they can use fireball and pyroblast etc on the hero directly and ignore your taunt units, it dosent make sense, and ofc its no only the mage spells its any spell that goes throught a taunt unit, it shouldent be possible to 1 shot someone that has (example from a game this morning) 12 hp, 3 taunts up and 2 other minions vs a mage on 3 hp and drops double fireball. And that goes for example a paladins avenging wrath it should aswell have to dump damage to the taunt units first.
Priest HP needs to be looked at? NO FREAKING way. This is why priests dominate games once they drop a large creature, because they can heal it every single freaking turn. If you can't drop a card that can one shot a priest card, than it's basically game over. If a priest drops that 0/4 taunt minion turn 1, you won't be getting board control for a long while.
I agree, it should heal 1 on minion and 2 on hero. Also paladin HP minions should be 1/2 instead of 1/1.
Just add new minions with mechanic like magic taunt and mages would be less OP. Or minions that reduce spell damage (oposite to Spell Power). Such mechanics would change meta significantly. So i would not be worry. Play mages while they are OP=)
What bothers me the most is that they can use fireball and pyroblast etc on the hero directly and ignore your taunt units, it dosent make sense, and ofc its no only the mage spells its any spell that goes throught a taunt unit, it shouldent be possible to 1 shot someone that has (example from a game this morning) 12 hp, 3 taunts up and 2 other minions vs a mage on 3 hp and drops double fireball. And that goes for example a paladins avenging wrath it should aswell have to dump damage to the taunt units first.
I know this shouldn't come out as a surprise, but, the game is not solely based on minions. If a deck with 0 minions won against your taunt wall, would you be mad? Because I'm quite sure it will be possible to do such decks in the future.
Should a "magic taunt" exist? No, I don't think so. That's why spells are good, they're a one-time card that hits whatever you want. But essentially, minions will always be better, sine they're persistant threats. A 2/2 minion can deal from 2 to 20 damage, a fireball will always hit you for 6...
I think that spells should deal 33%-50% to the taunt instead of the enemy hero but all their damage if the target is a minion. So a Pyroblast would do 5-7 damage to the enemy hero if there's a taunt on the board. The numbers would have to be adjusted but you get the idea.
I think the perfect fix would change the Mage HP so that it can't kill a minion. i.e. if the target minion is at 1 hit point, then the HP would do 0 damage. That way the mage wouldn't be able to take out x/1 minion's in one turn on it's own.
What bothers me the most is that they can use fireball and pyroblast etc on the hero directly and ignore your taunt units, it dosent make sense, and ofc its no only the mage spells its any spell that goes throught a taunt unit, it shouldent be possible to 1 shot someone that has (example from a game this morning) 12 hp, 3 taunts up and 2 other minions vs a mage on 3 hp and drops double fireball. And that goes for example a paladins avenging wrath it should aswell have to dump damage to the taunt units first.
I know this shouldn't come out as a surprise, but, the game is not solely based on minions. If a deck with 0 minions won against your taunt wall, would you be mad? Because I'm quite sure it will be possible to do such decks in the future.
Should a "magic taunt" exist? No, I don't think so. That's why spells are good, they're a one-time card that hits whatever you want. But essentially, minions will always be better, sine they're persistant threats. A 2/2 minion can deal from 2 to 20 damage, a fireball will always hit you for 6...
Hmm so lets see i played smart by keeping board control, i fought down tought minions taunts etc, the mage is on 3 hp im on 15 whit taunt units and a few living minions up while he has none, he uses fireball + a ice block. I cant do damage to him now im on 9 hp and he dumps a pyroblast in my forehead, while i have and "army" to defend me, how is that fairplay? I have conqured what he have thrown at me i have been playing smart keeping up board control, but 2-3 very OP cards can dump 15 damage on me in 2 turns (would be ok IF i wouldent have defensive units up i know i can do the same if there isnt any minions up to defend the enemy) but now i got my defense up and still you get blasted, that is what i call OP as i have read in another comment yeah fine let the dmg card to 30-50% on the taunt units first THEN hit your hero.
I want balance when i play, its hard to achive and this is after all beta (soon open) and they are still tuning up the game, but since those that play mage as main hero refuses to see that they got some very OP spells its very hard to tune things. To make a good game is to make a balanced game.
Hmm so lets see i played smart by keeping board control, i fought down tought minions taunts etc, the mage is on 3 hp im on 15 whit taunt units and a few living minions up while he has none, he uses fireball + a ice block. I cant do damage to him now im on 9 hp and he dumps a pyroblast in my forehead, while i have and "army" to defend me, how is that fairplay? I have conqured what he have thrown at me i have been playing smart keeping up board control, but 2-3 very OP cards can dump 15 damage on me in 2 turns (would be ok IF i wouldent have defensive units up i know i can do the same if there isnt any minions up to defend the enemy) but now i got my defense up and still you get blasted, that is what i call OP as i have read in another comment yeah fine let the dmg card to 30-50% on the taunt units first THEN hit your hero.
I want balance when i play, its hard to achive and this is after all beta (soon open) and they are still tuning up the game, but since those that play mage as main hero refuses to see that they got some very OP spells its very hard to tune things. To make a good game is to make a balanced game.
Like I've said again and again, and I'll say it for the hundreth time, every class should have an option against secrets. That would be a very effective "nerf" to mages, and if that ever existed, you would've won said situation. The rest, is pretty much fine the way it is. Use some healing.
The trouble is really when you consider the capacity of the Mage's Direct Damage through spells to any other class in the game; it's unparalleled. Most of the direct damage through spells pale in comparison. It can be argued that yes, some of these spells are mechanically different. An 8 cost Pyroblast actually is extremely detrimental to EVERYTHING when it hit's for 1/3rd of your total HP in a single shot. Consistent Mage decks can have you dead by turn 9, with very little or no risk/reward trade off. Even Bloodlust or Unleash the Hounds (pre-nerf) are contingent upon your capacity to maintain board control, which can be extremely difficult vs higher levels of play.
I'm not saying the Mage is OP; it is simply in a dominant position compared to the rest of the classes in the current meta. We should not be focused on completely changing the mechanics of the HP or adding crazy things like Spell Taunt. I don't even thing Taunt creatures should be forced to take spells to the face, and I think that a 2 cost for a ping of 1 damage is actually rather fair. The math and numbers simply need to be tweaked to iron out the balance. But we're still in Beta, and this is part of beta testing. Nothing is ever released with perfect balance, and the set of cards we have to choose from is an extremely shallow pool. Blizzard probably has a few dozen more sets already in the pipeline to development, so we just have to point out that numbers are skewed to the detriment of a large scale of the players (meaning us who don't play Mages) and go from there.
The other thing to consider is why metagames even exist within competitive games. Competitive games need to have a degree of imbalance to them, otherwise they get stagnant. The reason there is even a metagame at all, in any competitive game from Arenas in World of Warcraft to MOBAS like League of Legends is because of a well-calculated imbalance, meaning that Stragegy A loses to Strategy B, but Strategy C and beat Strategy B and still lose to Strategy A. Otherwise, every player would be playing the same deck.
Even if the numbers on the Mage isn't changed, eventually someone will figure out a strategy that can beat the Mage, and THAT will become the new dominating metagame.
That's how games like this grow and evolve. Unless you would prefer a completely mathematically balanced game and stagnant game play.
The hero power is pretty OP like everyone says, especially in slow mage decks as an early infinite removal with zero drawback. I'm sure how to fix the hero power though, especially without completely breaking the mage class. I think one change I would like to see though is a drawback to iceblock, like maybe it silences the hero for 1 turn. In WoW Ice Block does make you immune, but you also can't do anything while it's up. I wouldn't be sad to see it straight up removed either.
As for the pally hero power, if the minions had charge or taunt or something that would make sense, maybe even divine shield. Right now it's just a 1/1 for 2 mana, there is no card in the game that weak.
Free win with this deck, smash him in the face, make him trade with yours.
What do you guys think about drawing pyro on opening hand? I generally keep 1, can afford the card loss to know you got it for turn 8.
Im playing this deck the whole day. Got me to 100 gold cap, its really sick and so much fun to play. Please DONT keep the pyro, mulli it! Mana Wyrm + coin into shattered sun clearic is so awesome. Even if you dont get a pyro or 2 until turn 8, it shouldnt bother you too much.
Usually you got boardcontrole anyway. I cant believe this simple deck is so strong
Hmm so lets see i played smart by keeping board control, i fought down tought minions taunts etc, the mage is on 3 hp im on 15 whit taunt units and a few living minions up while he has none, he uses fireball + a ice block. I cant do damage to him now im on 9 hp and he dumps a pyroblast in my forehead, while i have and "army" to defend me, how is that fairplay? I have conqured what he have thrown at me i have been playing smart keeping up board control, but 2-3 very OP cards can dump 15 damage on me in 2 turns (would be ok IF i wouldent have defensive units up i know i can do the same if there isnt any minions up to defend the enemy) but now i got my defense up and still you get blasted, that is what i call OP as i have read in another comment yeah fine let the dmg card to 30-50% on the taunt units first THEN hit your hero.
I want balance when i play, its hard to achive and this is after all beta (soon open) and they are still tuning up the game, but since those that play mage as main hero refuses to see that they got some very OP spells its very hard to tune things. To make a good game is to make a balanced game.
Like I've said again and again, and I'll say it for the hundreth time, every class should have an option against secrets. That would be a very effective "nerf" to mages, and if that ever existed, you would've won said situation. The rest, is pretty much fine the way it is. Use some healing.
If you're being forced to play certain classes just to have access to self-healing abilities just to hope to counter mage aggro fire decks...then that's not something wrong with the players for not playing healing. That's a problem with mages for only having one way to counter them.
Hmm so lets see i played smart by keeping board control, i fought down tought minions taunts etc, the mage is on 3 hp im on 15 whit taunt units and a few living minions up while he has none, he uses fireball + a ice block. I cant do damage to him now im on 9 hp and he dumps a pyroblast in my forehead, while i have and "army" to defend me, how is that fairplay? I have conqured what he have thrown at me i have been playing smart keeping up board control, but 2-3 very OP cards can dump 15 damage on me in 2 turns (would be ok IF i wouldent have defensive units up i know i can do the same if there isnt any minions up to defend the enemy) but now i got my defense up and still you get blasted, that is what i call OP as i have read in another comment yeah fine let the dmg card to 30-50% on the taunt units first THEN hit your hero.
I want balance when i play, its hard to achive and this is after all beta (soon open) and they are still tuning up the game, but since those that play mage as main hero refuses to see that they got some very OP spells its very hard to tune things. To make a good game is to make a balanced game.
Like I've said again and again, and I'll say it for the hundreth time, every class should have an option against secrets. That would be a very effective "nerf" to mages, and if that ever existed, you would've won said situation. The rest, is pretty much fine the way it is. Use some healing.
If you're being forced to play certain classes just to have access to self-healing abilities just to hope to counter mage aggro fire decks...then that's not something wrong with the players for not playing healing. That's a problem with mages for only having one way to counter them.
Certain classes? Everyone has access to Farseer. It's a 3/3 with 3 healing on it. Also, Warrior has its armor and Warlock has some healing potential coupled with removals, so you dont lose tempo. I'll agree that Shaman and Rogue are probably at the worst matchups against Mage, it's just too hard to beat Ice Block with them (though a very fast rogue deck can deal with it).
Plus, healing isn't the only way to counter it. It's just the easiest way, and soon people will start to see that healing is great in EVERY matchup, not just against Mage.
It's still too soon to argue that Mages are OP. I don't think they are (Ice Block being the sole exception).
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Hello everyone this is Jotto and welcome to the 2nd recap of the ManaGrind weekly tournaments, this week we had a very.......interesting development.....
So Mages.....
Eight Mages in both of the Top 4's... just count them: eight! We have never seen a class be this successful over both servers before and I suspect that it will be a long time before we see this again. So what does this mean? It raises some problems balance wise as the one thing you want to avoid is one class dominating and that is what has happened. So the real question is what is the problem here?
First of all let’s take a glance at the winning deck from both tournaments. What stands out is the shockingly low amount of draw power that this deck can get away with. It only plays Novice Engineer and Acolyte of Pain and shows the individual power level of each card which would be required to consistently win with this little draw in the deck. Let’s have a look at some of these ‘’power’’ cards that Mage has access to.
Minion wise the Mana Wyrm is the only Mage minion in the deck but backed up by the notorious buff minions it proves to be one of the single most powerful one drops in the game, even surpassing the Warlock one drops to some extent, with The Coin it is very easy to play Mana Wyrm on turn one and Coin out a Shattered Sun Cleric for a massive 3/4 on turn two along with the 3/2 Cleric. However it’s not only the Mana Wyrm that is putting in the beats in the early game, Argent Squire and Faerie Dragon function as some of the best early buff targets in the game and Harvest Golem closes out the aggressive openings with its bulky stats and two for one trading capacity. The late to mid game is then secured by the ever so reliable Argent Commander and Dark Iron Dwarf along with Defender of Argus and Sylvanas Windrunner.
While the minions are impressive, it’s the spells that make Mage aggro stand out of the pack of aggro decks, Mage aggro decks have on average 36 points of burn in spells, 36! Not to mention that just the pair of Pyroblast hold 20 of those points meaning that you can afford to burn some creatures for removal purposes and that the minions only need to do on average 15 damage for you to win the game, this makes standard anti aggro decks have a hard time against Mage as it is very hard to stabilize against the extreme amount of burn that Mages have at their disposal.
In conclusion while aggro is the metagame at the moment, arguably the most powerful deck and class in the game would be the Mage as they have a counter to other aggro decks in their spells and have the burn to brute force through the midrange decks and cantrip focused deck that the meta has to offer. So how do you play against mage in general?
Generally keeping your health above twelve/thirteen will keep you out of burn range. This can be done by using control spells to stop his aggression before he inflicts too much damage and most importantly using healing spells to negate the damage that he does inflict as you will not be able to stop all of it. By doing this you can stay out of Pyroblast range and set them up for a kill a couple of turns later. On a final note many Mages that do not play aggro decks tend to play giants and Alexstrasza so often setting up a quick kill is more effective than grinding them down.
Jotto
If you want to see more content by Jotto you can check out his YouTube channel or check out his Twitch stream!
I'd say mage HP is pretty balanced, but some powers like paladin/priest need to be looked at.
Lol mage's HP is OP buddy, is the BEST hero power atm...and this is ONE of their many balance problems.
Priest HP needs to be looked at? NO FREAKING way. This is why priests dominate games once they drop a large creature, because they can heal it every single freaking turn. If you can't drop a card that can one shot a priest card, than it's basically game over. If a priest drops that 0/4 taunt minion turn 1, you won't be getting board control for a long while.
What bothers me the most is that they can use fireball and pyroblast etc on the hero directly and ignore your taunt units, it dosent make sense, and ofc its no only the mage spells its any spell that goes throught a taunt unit, it shouldent be possible to 1 shot someone that has (example from a game this morning) 12 hp, 3 taunts up and 2 other minions vs a mage on 3 hp and drops double fireball. And that goes for example a paladins avenging wrath it should aswell have to dump damage to the taunt units first.
I agree, it should heal 1 on minion and 2 on hero. Also paladin HP minions should be 1/2 instead of 1/1.
What I'm saying is hero powers get rid of the squires before they get to do anything.
Just add new minions with mechanic like magic taunt and mages would be less OP. Or minions that reduce spell damage (oposite to Spell Power). Such mechanics would change meta significantly. So i would not be worry. Play mages while they are OP=)
I know this shouldn't come out as a surprise, but, the game is not solely based on minions. If a deck with 0 minions won against your taunt wall, would you be mad? Because I'm quite sure it will be possible to do such decks in the future.
Should a "magic taunt" exist? No, I don't think so. That's why spells are good, they're a one-time card that hits whatever you want. But essentially, minions will always be better, sine they're persistant threats. A 2/2 minion can deal from 2 to 20 damage, a fireball will always hit you for 6...
I think that spells should deal 33%-50% to the taunt instead of the enemy hero but all their damage if the target is a minion. So a Pyroblast would do 5-7 damage to the enemy hero if there's a taunt on the board. The numbers would have to be adjusted but you get the idea.
I think the perfect fix would change the Mage HP so that it can't kill a minion. i.e. if the target minion is at 1 hit point, then the HP would do 0 damage. That way the mage wouldn't be able to take out x/1 minion's in one turn on it's own.
Make Silence be playable on Heros. Working like Freeze to Minions. So 1 Turn no Spellcasting, excluding Minions.
Hmm so lets see i played smart by keeping board control, i fought down tought minions taunts etc, the mage is on 3 hp im on 15 whit taunt units and a few living minions up while he has none, he uses fireball + a ice block. I cant do damage to him now im on 9 hp and he dumps a pyroblast in my forehead, while i have and "army" to defend me, how is that fairplay? I have conqured what he have thrown at me i have been playing smart keeping up board control, but 2-3 very OP cards can dump 15 damage on me in 2 turns (would be ok IF i wouldent have defensive units up i know i can do the same if there isnt any minions up to defend the enemy) but now i got my defense up and still you get blasted, that is what i call OP as i have read in another comment yeah fine let the dmg card to 30-50% on the taunt units first THEN hit your hero.
I want balance when i play, its hard to achive and this is after all beta (soon open) and they are still tuning up the game, but since those that play mage as main hero refuses to see that they got some very OP spells its very hard to tune things. To make a good game is to make a balanced game.
Like I've said again and again, and I'll say it for the hundreth time, every class should have an option against secrets. That would be a very effective "nerf" to mages, and if that ever existed, you would've won said situation. The rest, is pretty much fine the way it is. Use some healing.
I would like to try this deck out but I don't have the dust for windrunner. Any suggestions on a replacement card? Thanks!
I just got Malygos. Would that be a suitable replacement card?
The trouble is really when you consider the capacity of the Mage's Direct Damage through spells to any other class in the game; it's unparalleled. Most of the direct damage through spells pale in comparison. It can be argued that yes, some of these spells are mechanically different. An 8 cost Pyroblast actually is extremely detrimental to EVERYTHING when it hit's for 1/3rd of your total HP in a single shot. Consistent Mage decks can have you dead by turn 9, with very little or no risk/reward trade off. Even Bloodlust or Unleash the Hounds (pre-nerf) are contingent upon your capacity to maintain board control, which can be extremely difficult vs higher levels of play.
I'm not saying the Mage is OP; it is simply in a dominant position compared to the rest of the classes in the current meta. We should not be focused on completely changing the mechanics of the HP or adding crazy things like Spell Taunt. I don't even thing Taunt creatures should be forced to take spells to the face, and I think that a 2 cost for a ping of 1 damage is actually rather fair. The math and numbers simply need to be tweaked to iron out the balance. But we're still in Beta, and this is part of beta testing. Nothing is ever released with perfect balance, and the set of cards we have to choose from is an extremely shallow pool. Blizzard probably has a few dozen more sets already in the pipeline to development, so we just have to point out that numbers are skewed to the detriment of a large scale of the players (meaning us who don't play Mages) and go from there.
The other thing to consider is why metagames even exist within competitive games. Competitive games need to have a degree of imbalance to them, otherwise they get stagnant. The reason there is even a metagame at all, in any competitive game from Arenas in World of Warcraft to MOBAS like League of Legends is because of a well-calculated imbalance, meaning that Stragegy A loses to Strategy B, but Strategy C and beat Strategy B and still lose to Strategy A. Otherwise, every player would be playing the same deck.
Even if the numbers on the Mage isn't changed, eventually someone will figure out a strategy that can beat the Mage, and THAT will become the new dominating metagame.
That's how games like this grow and evolve. Unless you would prefer a completely mathematically balanced game and stagnant game play.
The hero power is pretty OP like everyone says, especially in slow mage decks as an early infinite removal with zero drawback. I'm sure how to fix the hero power though, especially without completely breaking the mage class. I think one change I would like to see though is a drawback to iceblock, like maybe it silences the hero for 1 turn. In WoW Ice Block does make you immune, but you also can't do anything while it's up. I wouldn't be sad to see it straight up removed either.
As for the pally hero power, if the minions had charge or taunt or something that would make sense, maybe even divine shield. Right now it's just a 1/1 for 2 mana, there is no card in the game that weak.
Im playing this deck the whole day. Got me to 100 gold cap, its really sick and so much fun to play. Please DONT keep the pyro, mulli it! Mana Wyrm + coin into shattered sun clearic is so awesome. Even if you dont get a pyro or 2 until turn 8, it shouldnt bother you too much.
Usually you got boardcontrole anyway. I cant believe this simple deck is so strong
If you're being forced to play certain classes just to have access to self-healing abilities just to hope to counter mage aggro fire decks...then that's not something wrong with the players for not playing healing. That's a problem with mages for only having one way to counter them.
Certain classes? Everyone has access to Farseer. It's a 3/3 with 3 healing on it. Also, Warrior has its armor and Warlock has some healing potential coupled with removals, so you dont lose tempo. I'll agree that Shaman and Rogue are probably at the worst matchups against Mage, it's just too hard to beat Ice Block with them (though a very fast rogue deck can deal with it).
Plus, healing isn't the only way to counter it. It's just the easiest way, and soon people will start to see that healing is great in EVERY matchup, not just against Mage.
It's still too soon to argue that Mages are OP. I don't think they are (Ice Block being the sole exception).