Well that is a huge change. However after an arvo of bashing at the random button, Im not seeing Hunter spec as dead as you made it out. Its definitely weaker and hard to string more than starving buzzard in a deck, but i wouldn't call it dead. However definitely agree with Rogue improving dramatically.
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Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
I don't know how you build your decks, but from what I understood, you try to build your decks to a theme, and go with it no matter what. While building a theme is good and should be aimed, if you anchor yourself to a theme before you get the required cards is bad. I never lock onto a token based shaman deck without at least 2-3 core cards (raid leader, flametonge totem, bloodlust etc.) after 10 picks. From what I understood in my playtests is that unless you can draw theme cards, that can work without any help. (for example Coldlight Oracle and Murloc Tidehunter are viable picks without other murlocks in deck) you're better off with less specialised cards.
Druid in tier 4? Druid is less situational than Priest, and yet he's a tier below him. And in the same tier as Paladin, who has the most situational cards of all classes. I'd say Tier 3 is the lowest you can put Malfurion.
About the same problem with the Hunter. He has more than just beasts, his common-rare spells mostly not that beast centered (animal companion is more a minion than a spell and kill command can be acceptable with only a few beasts or + spell power minion, so only Unleash the hounds requires a decent amount of beats). While not higher than that, Tier 3 is more his place. If nothing else, his hero power can be devastating in longer games.
The other Tier 4 heroes deserve thir spot.
So does the Priest.
Thinking, that shaman = bloodlust is way too simpleminded. He has awesome spells, that can knack a puch with some +spelllpower or you can combine windfury with bulky minions and buffs for great damage potential. And this isn't just " if you get the exact good cads". I've played with the forge simulator enought times to know: after 6-7 picks you can choose witch way to go and build a strong deck with the shaman. I can't complain because Tier 2 is good enough for him (can be Tier 1 easily), just wanted to boarden your viewpoint on the class.
Warrior, Rogue and Mage are ok again, can't complain there.
Hey there, Ferrarista. Thanks for the points you make. I have little time, but I'll try to contribute.
About making themed decks in Arena: we don't do that. I don't think Shaman = Bloodlust. But I do think that Bloodlust will steal a number of games you were technically losing. We typically adjust the deck to what we get, of course. But having said that, we found out that some themed decks are just stronger than non-themed decks when you can get the cards for them. Typically, a rogue deck focused on good cards and an ok curve will fare less well than a cheap aggro/tempo deck (again, in our experience - of course we might be wrong).
Druid vs Priest: I think we'll have to agree to disagree :) We still feel that the pool of priest common cards is more game-changing than the druid's, and ultimately, that's what it statistically boils down to. There is a big part of subjectivity here, though, so you might be right :)
Hunter can win longer games indeed. In our experience: you want to win games in Arena? Don't make your deck for longer games. Don't let priests, hunters and druids even get to the longer games. ;)
Thanks again for your views on that. It's exactly the kind of discussion I want to stimulate with this thread!
If you got to choose between Priest and Druid, pick Priest. The reason is he has Mind Control in his pool of common cards and this card alone can give you victories. of course, the distinction between those two is more complex than that, but still, if we reach the conclusion that we will always pick one against another, then they don't belong in the same tier.
Now, is Druid stronger than Warlock, Hunter etc? sadly, we never managed to be excited by our Druid decks. Even when you are lucky with your picks, you end up with a meh-deck that looks pale in comparison with Tier1 and Tier2 decks. You *can't* defeat consistently a mage with a druid. While you can win a little more games with a Priest.
Should we create a Tier 3.5 for Hunters and Druids? Maybe. But 4 Tiers is already one tier above what we wanted at first. ^^
it's late here in Ireland, I hope my english and my thoughts are understandable. :)
You don't really need to steal something big. Chances are that hands will be empty when you'll play it, and in such situation, even a simple Senjin Shieldmasta is a winner. It's even better if you can grab something fat, of course, like 8/8 taunt from our druid friend.
I think you are underrating hunters too much. Hunters seem to get very easy synergy between all their beasts and can almost always make a good deck by getting any card that has beast in it. Their hero power is great direct damage and they have lots of good secrets/spells as well.
I plan to update the tier list once I can see some heavy beta action. But because I'm European (and apparently Blizzard thinks it's a good idea to give beta to Europe pretty much after everyone else) that update will have to wait a little bit!
I've had fairly good results with hunter in arena (like 6-7 kills, no 9s with the class yet), along with rogue (my favorite right now). Cards like tracking just seem to help a ton in arena since you're bound to get some sub-par picks in your deck. I've only decked out twice, so fast card drawing/discard doesn't seem to be too big of an issue.
I've had the most losses (probably over 50% of them) to paladin. Warlocks seemed quite weak when i played with or against them, though i had more or less no idea how to play warlock since i didn't do the tutorial.
T1 warrior druid. For warrior good weapon usage is so strong in arena currently and for druid, just so many good cards thats not epic/legendary.
T2 rogue shaman and lock Shaman totems are good, bloodlust very strong, hard to lose board control completely, with few good cards, it ll be a t1 hero.
rogue is good too, ability can control board and trae cards very well, but needs to be careful not losing too much hp too early. warlock is actually very very strong, only placed him in T2 cos if depends on draws abit however the hero ability to draw cards proves very very strong in every aspect.
T3 other heroes, not cos they are weak, but they rly rely on better cards to win.
I have just one question on the Arena and card draw.... and that is about Heroes Levels... If you have a Mage at level 22 and someone else has a mage at 13 do you think the Draw for the mage at 22 will be better then the mage at 13???
Basically does the level of your Characters have something to do with the draws you get???
So, I finally got my EU key, and I'm in the beta. Currently playing - when work allows - my first Arena with a Mage deck. (2-0 so far, wish me luck!)
I'll be posting my deck soon, and of course, you can expect some updates to the tier list. If some of you are playing the arena a lot, I'd love to hear your thoughts on class balance: I certainly don't claim to have it all figured out, and intend to revisit all of my current reflections.
One thing though, please argue your points with observations. If you tell me "OMG NOOB WARLOCKS ROCK IN ARENA" that's not quite as helpful as "I've built that deck [link] and went 9-0. I feel the simulator might be off because [X] compared to the game, etc.
Thanks for the kind words everybody, and talk to you soon!
EDIT: Here is the Arena deck I'm currently competing with. I consider it "OK". Meaning on a scale of mage arena decks from 1-10 I'd say it's a 6, maybe a 7.
I'm 8 / 2 at the moment. I have lost one game to a super fast beast-hunter with all the goodies in it. It's actually disturbing that the guy had 2 of each staples. We met again and I won a very close game. Great deck. The other game I lost was to an incredible series of epic cards (Sea Giant, [card]Ragnaros the Firelord!!) No regrets on that one, I don't have the deck to compete. Most of the other games were smooth rides. Control the early game, and soon, the card advantage of drawing + AoE wins you the game.
EDIT: lost last game. 8-3 with this deck, which is not bad, I guess.
A few observations (a reminder to myself as I brew a new version of the tier list):
- give Rexxar a point or 2 for his hero power that just wins games.
- there seems to be more rare / epics in beta than on the simulator. Don't know if Flux reads this, but it may be something for you guys to watch. Got no data (punz!) to back it up though, just a feeling so far.
Hi guys, me again with another Arena Deck. This time I was given a choice between Priest, Hunter, and Warrior. Because I feel that currently my perception of hunters (simulator-based) might be a bit off, I went for Rexxar. Here's the deck I built.
As you see, it's pretty straightforward. The curve is not that great, but there are ton of solutions. Basically a third of the deck is either Animal Companion (just incredible), or Deadly shot (another incredible card to deal with thos "lucky" decks that have epic giants or even legendaries (yes, you do meet them on your way to 9 wins :)), or Explosive trap, with is another card I feel is very undervalued (it did wonders for me).
I went 9-1 with this. The last two games (1 loss, 1 win) were against the same Rogue opponent (Meow, don't know if he reads these forums, if you do, gratz on your deck, I assume you went 9 wins too :p). Game one, he pulled the sickest opening I've seen in Arena so far. I started. Nothing. He goes Coin, into Defias Ringleader, Shadowstep, put the ringleader back again for another 2/1 for a whopping 6 attack power on board on the first turn.
I played an Explosive Trap and watched them melt. Then his deck destroyed me :]
Game 2 I came out much stronger with coin into Animal Companion, then another one on turn 3. He had a slow opening and my hand was full of [card]Deadly Shot[/cast].
I'm not going to bore you with games all day, but since this was a successful deck, I imagine you guys might want to know more about deckbuilding, what worked and what didn't.
3- Weapons win games, especially Eaglehorn Bow with secrets all over the deck.
1- The deck has a very strong presence in turns 2-6. That's when you need to win most of your games. You need to establish early board advantage. Then, you control his small threats with your creatures, before removing the big guy with Deadly Shot.
2- You need to attack the hero as much as possible. I think Hunter qualifies as "aggro-control", meaning you're winning on tempo, even with just one Animal Companion, by removing his threats and attacking your opponent's face. Keep in mind Rexxar's hero power is awesome to finish opponents off.
How to win against this deck?
1- You need to either go faster than him (with super fast decks like Rogue / possibly Warrior, or even Warlock... No, don't play Warlock in Arena, it's too risky :)) or you need to control him hard (with a Mage, or maybe a Paladin).
2- When you need to make decisions, mind your total HP. If there's a board, and you're under 15, consider yourself in trouble.
3- Keep your damn solutions for his beasts!! 2 of my opponents threw direct damage at me just for kicks. You lose games on bad plays like this.
Guys, hope you found this interesting, feel free to leave feedback of course!
I have only 1 question.. the simulator is good for learning how to draft in hearthstone? I did like 2 arenas and went 0-3 and 2-3 :( how can i get better at this?
Sorry to hear that. To answer your question:
Yes, the simulator is good for learning how to draft, but only to figure out what you can statistically hope to build. What does that mean? That mean that unless you already know what cards are good, what's a good mana curve, etc. It won't help you. It will also fail to help you if you make many mistakes in your games. Let me give you an example - not for boasting, but because I think it's relevant. Yesterday I had a bit of gold surplus so my friend and I decided to to pick classes that we weren't playing much, just to test them out again. I went Warlock, and drafted a very aggressive, very low curve deck with tons of demons. First game I realized how bad this was going to be compared to the same strategy but with a hunter deck. I lost that match. Next game I won, purely because my opponent misplayed. Next game, guess what? I lost again. I was so disappointed, and firmly resolved never to play Warlock again in Arena. BUT! I eventually played against people making mistakes, every game, small ones, sometimes big ones, and that allowed me to come back from 1-2 to... 8-2! Sadly, my last opponent had a much better (paladin) deck, and was a good player, so I finished at 8-3. Why am I telling you this?
Because being good in Arena starts by playing your games right. You need to have a plan to win. Are you burning the guy down quickly? Do you need to stabilize the board to let your card advantage win for you? Is it a good idea to play that weapon now given there are 4 others in your deck? What is your opponent going to statistically do if you do this? Does that mage have flamestrike in her hand? You need to figure all that, and the simulator can help you with some of those questions by giving you a better idea of what each class arena deck looks like. But it won't take you all the way. For that, you need to practice playing, again, and again, and again. :)