I would like to think there are enough cards in the Standard pool to combat turn 4/5 winning Shaman/Warrior Pirate. The issue seems to be little incentive to try and figure out something that works. What if instead of Blizzard hoping someone figures out an answer, they offer a reward for beating some of the problematic decks in the meta? Here is an idea:
Meta Breaker Mode
Pick a class other than top two classes (in this case, Shaman or Warrior)
Once you choose this mode, only decks not in the top two classes would be available for you to choose from.
Placed in standard ranked queue like normal
Win and get rewarded!
There are a lot of possible rewards, but here a few I thought of:
1. Free Pack - If you beat a Shaman or Warrior while on ladder, you get a free pack.
2. Legend Leap - You climb the ladder twice as fast regardless of what decks you play against.
3. 5 for 10 - If you move up five ranks, you get 10 packs.
Wait, why can't you make a deck with the top two classes that is not a top deck? People are sick of losing to those classes, so finding another answer with them doesn't seem enjoyable either.
We've been pitching some internally (what if you get bonus stars for winning with the worst class?), but discussing what the problems are with the community gives us opportunities to hear new ideas from players.
Sounds like a step in the right direction, just like the Ranked Ladders announcement from yesterday. I think expanding to the bottom 3 or 4 classes might produce better results though.
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Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
So why would someone queue up into this mode with shaman or warrior if these decks would probably be the worst ones to play with in that mode ? Also what if you create a deck against aggro shaman but end up facing control shaman ?
In this mode, you are on the normal ranked ladder. These would be incentives to fight the current meta (in this case, Shaman and Warrior). The goal would be to create new decks that are viable in Tier 1/2 without nerfing or new card releases.
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Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
We've been pitching some internally (what if you get bonus stars for winning with the worst class?), but discussing what the problems are with the community gives us opportunities to hear new ideas from players.
Sounds like a step in the right direction, just like the Ranked Ladders announcement from yesterday. I think expanding to the bottom 3 or 4 classes might produce better results though.
The implementation I think would be interesting to explore is if you weighed the wins based on how represented your class was on ladder, which is kind of in that vein. As someone who plays WoW as well, awhile back they introduced a system into the Looking for Dungeon queue that would reward Tanks/Healers/DPS for queuing into one of those roles when there was a substantial dip in representation; so if you had a Tank or Healer (roles that are generally less represented), for quite awhile this actually resulted in being able to get awesome stuff for playing something you might not otherwise be playing.
So in the case of current ladder we've established that Shaman and Warrior are pretty much the classes to beat because they're just insanely common. There's no reason to punish that, people are playing decks that are good and being rewarded with consistency. However, Hunter representation is super low because there's really no incentive to play or develop decks for the class; what if you gained 3x the stars for wins? All of a sudden now you're not only making up for losses while you innovate, but more people are going to feel like there's a great reason to be playing that underdog class.
This at least pushes a very organic way of controlling representation, because people that might not have given Hunter a chance now have a good reason to. People who love Hunter can feel less bad about continuing to play and innovate on Hunter. People who are already grinding the deck the majority thinks is best for climbing are still getting consistent climbs, but they miss out on rewards which means they actually have to make a hard decision on what to climb with.
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The real problem is just Grinding out a good deck. it requires alot of cards in order to actually expermient, because you have to try so many different things. Alot of the cards even for a theoretical deck you will need to craft. So people are not inentivized to try something new because they just don't have the cards for it.
Even if the classes were extremely close to each other in balance, there's always going to be a best/worst class. So while it's easy to place the blame on set design, promoting diversity requires actually making it tangibly appealing to play the underrepresented classes. I think quests were supposed to do that, but I think they need to do other things to help stimulate diversity.
The current ladder problems are partially balance related, but honestly it has more to do with overall ladder design not giving people a reason to play what are considered sub-optimal classes or slow climbers. Something like Pirate Warrior and Reno Mage may both be confirmed top-tier decks for instance, but there's no downside to picking the most common deck and there's no upside to picking the slowest deck. In a system where you gave bonuses to less-represented classes all of sudden you could make Reno Mage at least similarly appealing to ladder with.
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I think all they really need to do to shake up the meta is introduce things like special promotions where you get something for playing a certain class during a limited period of time. Something like getting a special card back for winning 30 games with rogue this week, or getting a pack if you play 50 games with priest this week.
I don't think you need extra rewards for beating the most popular classes on the ladder; you're going to tech your deck to combat them anyways, if you want to climb, because they're the most popular classes on the ladder. In other words, if you've played 10 Aggro decks in a row, it would be stupid of you not to consider a deck that counters Aggro. The OP seems to think such decks don't exist and thus people need to be incentivized to create them, but that's not the case.
I do like the idea of extra rewards for underrepresented classes. Bonus stars for wins is a good place to start; perhaps extra Gold (e.g., 50 instead of 10) for every 3rd win as well. I think that - in conjunction with Rank floors - would at least encourage people to try the bad classes.
So why would someone queue up into this mode with shaman or warrior if these decks would probably be the worst ones to play with in that mode ? Also what if you create a deck against aggro shaman but end up facing control shaman ?
In this mode, you are on the normal ranked ladder. These would be incentives to fight the current meta (in this case, Shaman and Warrior). The goal would be to create new decks that are viable in Tier 1/2 without nerfing or new card releases.
ah, so you don't actually want a different mode, you just want the normal standard mode to have that ?
I don't think you need extra rewards for beating the most popular classes on the ladder; you're going to tech your deck to combat them anyways, if you want to climb, because they're the most popular classes on the ladder. In other words, if you've played 10 Aggro decks in a row, it would be stupid of you not to consider a deck that counters Aggro. The OP seems to think such decks don't exist and thus people need to be incentivized to create them, but that's not the case.
I do like the idea of extra rewards for underrepresented classes. Bonus stars for wins is a good place to start; perhaps extra Gold (e.g., 50 instead of 10) for every 3rd win as well. I think that - in conjunction with Rank floors - would at least encourage people to try the bad classes.
I see a lot of complaints about Pirate Shaman/Warrior. Not only is there a lot of it being played, it is extremely efficient at killing you before turn 6. There might be an answer out there to these decks, but the incentive to find that answer is not worth it at the moment.
I'm not saying my ideas are the best though. I like your thoughts on bonuses for the underrepresented classes.
Either way, the end result - more variety on the ladder - is the goal we share. Whatever makes that happen, I'm for.
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Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
There are a lot of possible rewards, but here a few I thought of:
1. Free Pack - If you beat a Shaman or Warrior while on ladder, you get a free pack.
2. Legend Leap - You climb the ladder twice as fast regardless of what decks you play against.
3. 5 for 10 - If you move up five ranks, you get 10 packs.
Those rewards are too much. something like double gold (20) for 3 victory would already be ok. The main problem with a system like that would be the gold farmers at rank 20 with the best class deck farming the noob. That reward thing should start around rank 12/10 at least
Blizzard should do the exact opposite.. but letting players BAN a hero to play against. For example if you ban Shaman, you will no longer face shaman in Ladder, until you change the BAN option to another hero.
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Minions, servants, soldiers of the cold dark! Obey the call...of Kel'Thuzad!
Blizzard should do the exact opposite.. but letting players BAN a hero to play against. For example if you ban Shaman, you will no longer face shaman in Ladder, until you change the BAN option to another hero.
I really like this idea. I add "tech" cards to my deck to deal with Warrior over and over and once I do, they disappear from my pairings and I go back multiple ranks.
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Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
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I would like to think there are enough cards in the Standard pool to combat turn 4/5 winning Shaman/Warrior Pirate. The issue seems to be little incentive to try and figure out something that works. What if instead of Blizzard hoping someone figures out an answer, they offer a reward for beating some of the problematic decks in the meta? Here is an idea:
Meta Breaker Mode
There are a lot of possible rewards, but here a few I thought of:
1. Free Pack - If you beat a Shaman or Warrior while on ladder, you get a free pack.
2. Legend Leap - You climb the ladder twice as fast regardless of what decks you play against.
3. 5 for 10 - If you move up five ranks, you get 10 packs.
Wait, why can't you make a deck with the top two classes that is not a top deck? People are sick of losing to those classes, so finding another answer with them doesn't seem enjoyable either.
Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
Ben Brode recently commented on Reddit with this:
Sounds like a step in the right direction, just like the Ranked Ladders announcement from yesterday. I think expanding to the bottom 3 or 4 classes might produce better results though.
Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
The real problem is just Grinding out a good deck. it requires alot of cards in order to actually expermient, because you have to try so many different things. Alot of the cards even for a theoretical deck you will need to craft. So people are not inentivized to try something new because they just don't have the cards for it.
I like to make cards and discuss game balance.
I enjoy when "No similar decks were found."
My latest deck: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1366184-scholomance-charge-rez-priest-wild
Or just balance the classes.
bad business from a blizz perspective.
Add me Craazytime#1713 for friendly testing/discussion, NA
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
I think all they really need to do to shake up the meta is introduce things like special promotions where you get something for playing a certain class during a limited period of time. Something like getting a special card back for winning 30 games with rogue this week, or getting a pack if you play 50 games with priest this week.
I don't think you need extra rewards for beating the most popular classes on the ladder; you're going to tech your deck to combat them anyways, if you want to climb, because they're the most popular classes on the ladder. In other words, if you've played 10 Aggro decks in a row, it would be stupid of you not to consider a deck that counters Aggro. The OP seems to think such decks don't exist and thus people need to be incentivized to create them, but that's not the case.
I do like the idea of extra rewards for underrepresented classes. Bonus stars for wins is a good place to start; perhaps extra Gold (e.g., 50 instead of 10) for every 3rd win as well. I think that - in conjunction with Rank floors - would at least encourage people to try the bad classes.
I would pick paladin and hunter ez quests
Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.
Blizzard should do the exact opposite.. but letting players BAN a hero to play against. For example if you ban Shaman, you will no longer face shaman in Ladder, until you change the BAN option to another hero.
Minions, servants, soldiers of the cold dark! Obey the call...of Kel'Thuzad!
Ideas on how to get more variety in the meta and card pool.