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Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Thanks guys!
@AbusingKel, all of that advice is spot on. I thought I was being efficient in that game I posted above by trading Patches because I could then take it out with 1 damage but it turns out that is ineffective trading. You're absolutely right about wanting to take down the big threat even if you can't clear it, and now that you've mentioned that, perhaps I made some good choices in my Reno Mage match I posted earlier. There were several turns that went by where I couldn't clear something and even though I could have almost destroyed it, I kept in mind the healing aspect (It was against a Priest) and then cleared it later on. In Aggro I tend to forget about that, mostly because it's a rushed style of play, which plays into your third piece of advice.
I feel a lot more clear about my mistakes now, I was more or less lost and confused at the beginning of this thread but now I have a clear idea of where I'm going wrong and what I can do to improve. I need to shift my thinking a bit, I think what happened is I got caught up in some of the stuff I've been reading/watching. Hearthstone's strategy has great depth and is fairly rich it seems, so there generally doesn't appear to be a black or white answer most of the time, which I think is what I was attempting to apply. Now I can see the gray area better.
@Darge yeah I really do need to learn to mulligan better. I think I do OK right now but I know I could be making better choices.
Regarding future plays, one thing I'm trying to do is when I have a good control card in hand, I ask myself, "Okay, what is potentially in their deck that this should counter? What should I hold onto this for, save for a situation where I absolutely need it?". I've been caught a couple times but generally it seems to be working for me. I do need to learn to slow down in these situations sometimes though, like it was mentioned earlier, I tend to see big threats and think "oh no, I need to remove that NOW" but I need to be patient, even if it might mean taking some serious damage to the face. Decisions, decisions!
I have played since the game went live and in all of that time I have only reached rank 4 - I have tried my best to get legend, but have failed in doing so every season - All I want is to reach legend once so I get the cardback and never have to worry about my rank again.
Stick to Aggro Shaman imo. It's simply the best deck and I think you need to gain ranks to gain confidence. It's also important to understand how aggro works. It is not a mindless deck. Not even close and anyone who says otherwise is salty. Yes, it can have mindless games, but a lot of times it has many subtle plays (like the patches one pointed out earlier in the thread) that impact the entire game.
You're learning... so would you rather have a few points in a game to focus on and get right or every damn turn?? Control gives you options, it lets you control your fate a bit more, but it also gives you a lot more things to analyse and frankly, you're clearly at a point right now where you don't know how to analyse.
So I'd focus on aggro and improve your analysis skills. Reflect on every game. Win or lose. Too often players focus only on the losses. You're probably making a number of misplays in your wins too and the strength of the deck is carrying you.
*** The Fundamental thing you need to learn ***
Who's the beatdown?
(You can look this up for old Magic the Gathering articles if you're really ambitious)
It's not about who is control or aggro. That's garbage. Every game is different and sometimes as aggro in weird cases, you are actually control. How does that make sense??? It all comes down to on every turn ask yourself do you have better odds of winning if the game goes shorter or longer? Play accordingly.
Also ask yourself... will the game go short or long? This will determine a key aspect of playing Aggro Shaman which is when do you use your weapon charges? Most times you always want to save your weapon charges to kill their minions, but once you've determined the game will not last long (if you're going to win) then you need to use it to hit their face.
This is all very rambling, but if you take anything away from this.. always ask yourself, do I want this game to be short or long based on where I'm at right now. Play that way. Sometimes that'll mean trading a lot. Sometimes that'll mean throwing all your spells at their face recklessly.
Ok, finally got a chance to check out the Renolock game. This is going to be a long, but very informative post, so buckle up! Before I get to the match itself, here's the lowdown on Priest:
There are a couple things to think about before your mulligan. If your opponent in Dragon Priest (as usual), they will be the aggressor in the match. They will try to beat you down because they can't keep up with your draw and they will struggle to kill you once you become Jarraxus, since Priest has very little direct damage. Aim to draw lots of cards and efficiently deal with their threats. Eventually you will win by having more card advantage and resources. This matchup usually doesn't go to fatigue because Jaraxxus is just so good vs Priest. Just remember to play him when you have a taunt or heal in your hand, as they will try to kill you ASAP after you transform. Another strong play is to set up a Doomsayer the turn before Jaraxxus to take some of the pressure off. Another strong play vs Priest is playing Jarraxus and then hero power after getting an Emperor Thaurisan discount OR saving coin to play Jaraxxus plus hero power (although definitely use the coin sooner if you see a good play). The match is 60/40 is you play it right, so take things slow. I'm not going to talk too much about the matchup vs Reno Priest since it's even more one-sided in your favor. The Reno Priest has an even harder time dealing with your card draw since they can't really get aggressive like a Dragon Priest can. You have a lot of time to get value in this matchup, so look for plays like reducing Jaraxxus as mentioned above, and saving Kazakus for Brann Bronzebeard. This matchup is slow enough that you can take two 10 cost potions most of the time. Vs Dragon Priest you should be more willing to take the 5 mana potion. Basically what I'm saying is greed is good vs Reno Priest.
Here's some things I noticed in the game:
In your mulligan you kept all your cards. Shadowbolt and Corruption are good keeps because they will allow you to deal with Priest's high stated minions, especially if its a Dragon Priest. The Bolt is perfect for dealing with Wyrmrest Agent. The Mistress of Mixtures and Reno are questionable though. Assuming this is Dragon Priest, they will likely be playing Twilight Whelp on turn 1 (2/3) or Wyrmrest Agent on turn 2 (2/4 with taunt). Either of these cards will happily kill your mistress, so you are better off having another card. In terms of Reno, both versions of Priest play slow enough that you shouldn't need a turn 6 Reno. The card is better off being thrown back for something else. The kinds of things you want in your hand vs Priest are: Twilight Drake (so hard for Priest to deal with), Mountain Giant (very hard for them to kill without SW:Death), Doomsayer and Shadowbolt and Corruption to stop their early aggression. Imp Gang Boss is also a solid choice. I would consider keeping Faceless Shambler if you also have a giant or drake in your mulligan. Overall, games vs Priest are slower paced, so you are looking for cards that will be good at some point in the match, but you don't need to worry about having a 1,2,3,4 curve like vs Pirate decks. Just search for stuff that is high impact.
Turn 6: You had a lot of kind of mediocre options available to you this turn. Option 1 is playing Reno. A 4/6 is normally pretty effective against Priest since it's not susceptible to their removal, but the Priest already has a good trade ready, even better if he has Blackwing Corruptor in hand. You are at decently high life, especialy considering Priest's lack of burst options. Option 2 is to play Hellfire then either play Ooze, or hold it in hand. Hellfire is potentially good because it will set his Operative and Agent to 1 health. Next turn you would have the very clean option of clearing him out with Abyssal Enforcer. Unless he has multiple heals in hand, he can't save both minions. Playing the Ooze is unintuitive since it can die for free to his board or to Blackwing Corruptor, but playing Ooze is potentially good since it will allow you to lifetap more on future turns. The 3rd option is playing Emperor Thaurissian. Like Reno, it also dies easy to the Priests board, but it has additional weakness to SW:Death. Because you aren't under enough pressure to need to play Reno and both minions are equally easy to deal with, I agree with your decision to play Emperor. It opens up more plays for your following turns. Having the option of Twisting Nether on the next turn is really good since you are behind on board.
Turn 8: You are at 9 health and choose to play Reno and give it taunt. While this play isn't bad, it's also playing it a bit too safe. You can play to much lower health vs Priest before worrying about dying. With that in mind, I would have played Twilight Drake and copied it with Faceless Shambler. This would give you a 4/10 and a 4/10 with taunt. 4 attack isn't vulnerable to pain or death, and no Dragon Priests play Entomb, so this play is completely safe and also puts the most stats on board. This even leaves you with an extra mana to play Ooze or Sunfury. Since you already have a big taunt, I'd save Sunfury to use after you become Jaraxxus. Ooze is the play here. Remember that if you can Reno as late as possible, you can fit in more lifetaps and then heal for more.
Turn 9: This is where you decided to make two 9/9 taunts. While this is an efficient turn, it is weak to a couple cards your opponent could have. He hasn't played either Corruptor. He's about halfway through his deck, so its very likely he has one. If he attacks with Operative, his 1/1 imp and the Corruptor battlecry, he can deal with 1 giant pretty easily. If he has his second copy of Death that's another way to lose a giant. If he has both (which he actually does in the replay) than he can conveniently kill both of your 9/9s. While the 2nd copy of Death is unlikely, Corruptor is very likely. Also by using Sunfury, Argus and Shambler you have no taunts in hand for when you become Jaraxxus. Instead, you can play Hellfire and Abyssal Enforcer. This leaves your opponent with no board and you with a 6/6, a huge swing for you! This play is vulnerable to second death (less likely), but safe vs Corruptor (very likely).
Turn 10: By not finishing off the Blackwing Corruptor, you gave your opponent an easy trade into your Enforcer. Since you didn't use Hellfire and Enforcer on the previous turn, they are both available here. If you trade Argus into the Imp and then play Hellfire and Abyssal, you will have a clean board and a 6/6.
Turn 11: For some reason the Priest didn't trade off his low health Corruptor while he had the chance. We definitely want to kill it for cheap before it takes a good trade. With that in mind, I would lifetap, play Drake, play Demonwrath, and soulfire his Bookwyrm and attack the Twilight Guardian with your 6/6. This leaves you with a 4/10 and a 6/3 and him with just a 1/1 imp. You'd have 8 health, but considering the Jaraxxus in hand (which you ideally didn't discard) and the two heal cards left in your deck, you should be fine since you have board control. You could consider not using soulfire so that you don't risk discarding Jaraxxus or Soulfire, but I think Soulfire is worth it since it stops his dragon from trading into your Enforcer.
Turn 12: Instead of Jaraxxus plus Soulfire, which leaves you with very little board to defend yourself, I would clear the board. You can attack face with Ooze, then use Hellfire and Demonwrath to clear the board. I'd then preemptively play Doomsayer. This encourages your opponent to play no minion and skip their turn, unless they have SW:Pain. More often than not, they will let the Doomsayer die, rather than using removal on it. This gives you a perfect opportunity to play Jaraxxus on the next turn with no worry of getting rushed down.
Turn 15: Good choice of potion. From this point on, you are just slowly grinding your opponent out of the game, so there's not much more to analyze. Don't fault yourself for not knowing some of the finer points. However, you can definitely avoid some of those situations where you take a bad trade or fail to capitalize on your opponents bad trades.
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
@Haardsteen Here's another thing that might help you.
Kripp is a fun and pretty good streamer. He was playing Renolock recently, including vs Priest if you want to check it out. It could give you another perspective on your games.
https://youtu.be/oWfqxKRrAkE
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Thank you for putting so much time into this RevenantSC, I sincerely appreciate it. I think you can tell I'm pretty inexperienced with Renolock in general, I definitely need to put more time into that deck to get better with it. I get the general idea of it, but you illuminated one of my flaws in thinking with this deck which is the power of Lord Jaraxxus. When you highlight the fact they cannot deal direct damage well (and I have both Dragon and Reno Priest decks, so I know exactly what you mean), it puts it into perspective just how strong it is. I see why it's put into the deck as a win condition. I think one thing I need to consider is what my win condition is in each match - what is my path to victory. In that matchup, I was playing reactionary, not really thinking about how I was going to reach the win eventually.
Also a lot of my plays are coming from watching streamers like Trump playing the deck and thinking in my mind, "If he were in this position, what decision would he make?" and that's why I played Thaurissan on turn 6 there. I can see the value in the play, because of the potential plays it can make down the road, but actually I'm not fundamentally seeing the play, really only trying to repeat what someone else is doing. I need to learn exactly why these plays are being made so thanks for taking the time to explain the choices I had there, it makes more sense to me now.
It also seems that one of my biggest flaws right now is value trading. I thought I was doing this properly, but I can see I'm not. This explains why I fall behind in games often. I'm also playing it a bit too safely in some cases as you can tell. I need to learn to take more risks, like you mentioned previously if you're behind, play a little riskier, if you're ahead, play it a bit safer.
It's only day two but, even after all the losses today I still feel like I've learned something. Maybe not with Reno Mage, I think I am missing fundamental knowledge there, but I went back to Pirate Warrior for a bit tonight and keeping in mind what you taught me earlier, about making unnecessary trades, I am definitely winning more games. I am sitting at 53% win rate instead of 50%. 3% in this game seems to be a pretty big deal! So that's already an improvement, and I'm sitting at Rank 14 with 3 stars so that feels good too. I feel a lot more confident in the plays I'm making. Before I would struggle a bit with what choice to make in quite a few situations, and even though I still do, it's noticeably less now. That's a step in the right direction for sure.
Oh and I also had my first salty experience tonight, someone added me after I beat them with Pirate Warrior and basically told me not to use the deck because it ruins the game.. haha. Well, if I'm pissing someone off, I must be doing something right.
I'll check out that video you linked as well, I know Kripp but haven't watched too many of his videos. He's a little on the salty side but does know what he's doing so I should probably watch more of his videos.
Thanks again RevenantSC, you've been a big help. Maybe I can call myself just above the worst player in Hearthstone now. haha. :-)
When you're playing games, make sure to ponder every play: what it plays around, the boardstate you and your opponent have afterwards, resources used, etc. Learning how to value trade, but also when to go face, is another good technical skill factor that will drastically improve your winrate.
Also, I disagree that aggro shaman is a brainless deck. In fact, I'd argue it's one of the more skillful decks as the deck's consistency means you aren't reliant on topdecking/drawing reno, and any minor misplays may change the tempo/game outcome immensely (especially in the mirror).
I'm not the best player in the world, but I've hit legend pretty consistently since the first time I hit it a few months ago. If you play on NA, add me and I can coach/help you out on demand :)
Construct#1502 NA
Also it's funny that you dislike Kripp's salt. It's one of my favorite things about his videos XD He definitely is good though, especially if you want to learn Arena. Websites can teach you how to draft for Arena, but Kripp can teach you ho to play much more effectively.
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Sounds like a typical experience that probably most people have experienced. Hearthstone does have quite a bit of learning curve to it, although I'd say right now it's relatively "easier" since there seem to be way less deck archetypes than before.
I read some bits of you playing with renolock, and I'd say reno decks probably have the highest learning curve to them. I wrote a guide on it in my decklist on a whim (since I was excited my renolock was doing so well at 71% WR), but essentially you have to know what your opponent can do, so you can figure out your win condition. Like the replay you linked against the Priest I already see the error of the mulligan phase, none of those cards should've been kept, and you should've mulliganed hard for Twilight Drake, Mountain Giant, and Emperor. Then again, Stancifka's Renolock performs slightly worse in control matchups anyway, so the deck itself has some issues as well.
Anyway, the best advice is reflecting on your losses and wins, and just letting time do its work. You need experience so you can see how you win against a certain deck, and how you would lose. There's also ton of nuances about tempo and value, which you might learn better from an experienced player discussing plays with you vs. just watching them.
Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player.
Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
Achieved Gold Priest- April 2017
@RevenantSC
I've definitely been doing a lot more thinking about different moves in a game. Although I've been primarily playing with Pirate Warrior again, it's still a good opportunity to learn about value trades and also to evaluate what different choices I could have made. For example, there was a game where it came down to 1 damage remaining. I still won but I immediately asked myself, was there some way I could have hit for 1 damage? And there was - the problem was I didn't think, at that time, how close I was to lethal and what I could potentially draw to win the game. I was in a good position too, I just ended up playing too quickly. On the flipside, there was a game where I had to make a very risky play that I wouldn't normally make. I could very easily have lost the next turn, but the other choice I had would have been slightly safer, but only had a slightly less chance of losing. I ended up making the riskier of the two choices, and I won. It showed me sometimes you have to make a leap of faith because had I taken the safer route, I might not have won.
I'll check out that stream you linked, that sounds really interesting. I've been meaning to watch more tournament action anyways, that's where the best games are at.
So far I'm still doing really well using Pirate Warrior - I'm now at Rank 8 with 2 stars and a 56% win rate over 75 games. I expect it'll go down, but I'm doing much better than before. I think I am still making suboptimal plays here and there, but now I feel like I've got what I need to get ahead. For a second season I think if I can hit Rank 5 using this "cheat" ;) deck, that's pretty good, and I'm still learning a thing or two along the way. Maybe next season or the season after I can start focusing on the more difficult decks and learning them slowly, with Pirate Warrior as an option to net me some wins.
Overall, what a difference compared to a few days ago. I know there are some tough days ahead of me, but this is the most consistent I've been in winning games ever since starting to play HS. This is, by far, the best and most confident I've felt so that is a great sign. Also, I will definitely take you up on your offer to play some games against you (and no, I won't use "Cheat" Warrior haha). I have an 80g Play a Friend quest so the next time you're on I'll get you some gold, it's the least I can do for all the help you've given me so far.
@AbusingKel I'm really overwhelmed with the support and response to this thread. Every single post has been constructive and helpful. This is definitely a great community. :)
@TachiiDerp You're totally right about that, you are better of playing a deck you know how to play and/or are comfortable with as opposed to a deck that is better but you're not as happy using. I think Aggro Shaman is that for me, I haven't figured it out yet. Pirate Warrior I know I am good with so I've switched back to that for now. I'm going to continue to work on learning the other decks, but I at least have this for now and with all the advice I've received so far, I've been able to as you say let time do its thing and reflect on my losses and even my wins to see if I could have done better. I feel like I've done a total 180.
@potato_beleren What a pain huh haha. Netdeck one of the best decks and you don't get the strong wins like you expect. It turns out Aggro Shaman is more difficult to use than it appears. The rewards are certainly there but they won't come easily. Well, if you figure something out, let me know! And, if I do, I will be sure to share it with you so we can both climb the ladder with that great deck.
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
I haven't watched him the last week or so, but last I was him he was playing a lot of aggro shaman. And before that I think it was renomage.
never aim legend unless you can play 40 hours per month using fast deck or 120 hours using slow deck.
learn the basic mechanic in the games. Then the games will just decide by RNG. What you need ka the grinding time.
misconception for newbie.
1)Aggro brainless face only but you need to learn how to do the flavor trade. heavy depend on opening hand. need mulligan aggressively.
2) Control vs control=skill match another misconceptions'.
Control matchup
90% decide by RNG (Kazakus RNG, Cabalist tome, who draw the combo 1st, who have insane starting hand)
10% decide by deck list(20 legendary deck list always win 10 Legendary deck list)