Definitely not worth it. It's good against reno mage mostly and against reno lock too ( but your win rate against lock is positive as miracle) but it's a dead card against every aggro deck, decks that run rampant on ladder at the moment. And even if you had it, your win rate against mage wouldn't improve THAT much. It is interesting to try it for sure, but giving up on 400 dusts for that is not a thing you would do
No, it's a cool trick but nowhere near worth it. Clever but not good enough. Too situational and it waters down your deck too against anything none Reno.
No. I crafted one and swapped it with one fan of knives. I always seemed to draw it my opening hand when playing against aggro and it was usually buried within the last 7 cards of my deck when facing reno. Maybe running 2 copies would be better? I personally don't think it is worth it. Even if you get it out before reno, they are likely to get kazakus out before you find BtG. Then there is always the possibility that they draw two Nerubians quickly and activate reno anyway. Of course I could just be bad player, and you will do well with it.
Been trying to explain this on that Pirate BTG Rogue deck page, created by a salty guy against Reno.
But I learned my lesson, never try to be reasonable in a page based on frustration and infested with SMOrce'rs whose dream of "balanced" would be a cheap mana card with battlecry: if you have or hold a pirate and a weapon, deal 30 damage to enemy hero. Maybe pwn should consider make deck pages reportable... because that one is a shame to this community, yet still front paged. Nothing against any kind of deck, if people up vote enough, it deserves the spotlight. But when the language level goes that low, something has to be done.
And a few days ago, I tried it on a Miracle list: won some Reno games without it, it was painful to have it versus aggro... And then, had two pirates on board plus an 8/8 Edwin, opponent draws an ambush, my big guy gets stolen by Mind Control Tech... Smart**s got smart***ed!
EDIT: I forgot to say, still crying my 400 dust. Miracle Rogue does already great without it.
I teched it into mine for a swashburgler since pretty much the only way I lose to reno decks is some kazakas bullshit with limited success. It may not help with aggro must of the time, but if you cam prep it out it at least gives you the chance for some additional board presence, and I've rather have that stuck in my hand then an auctioneer
BTG kills Reno decks with the current Standard set - it will also shut them down in Wild where they will be rampant, and possibly in Tavern Brawls as well.
I teched it into mine for a swashburgler since pretty much the only way I lose to reno decks is some kazakas bullshit with limited success. It may not help with aggro must of the time, but if you cam prep it out it at least gives you the chance for some additional board presence, and I've rather have that stuck in my hand then an auctioneer
That's the problem with it. It requires you to lose tempo or to waste a good activator. Last time I saw one against me, it was with prep on turn 4, later I had an Azure Drake on board, his Gadgetzan Auctioneer drew two cards. Of course I killed his miracle chances, next turn he ends up playing an Eviscerate from the left side of his hand, having prep to kill the drake would save his auctioneer an probably win the game. And I was playing Midrange Jade Shaman, no Ambush spawned, miracle cycles lost, and there could be a lot of more valuable cards right there.
I play a bit of everything, already played Rogue and lost to Renodecks, already was the other way around, where the game was decided for the Reno side without any sign of Reno or any Kazakus potion. Because, sometimes a single copy of a card gets buried in the deck, and that happens often.
The problem here is Aggro had a blast start on this expansion, many low skilled players thought it was their passport to Legend Heaven, but those decks can be countered, not only by Reno, Control Warrior does it even better without Reno/Kazakus nor a weapon removal tech. Things started to not go as planned and they had to find a scapegoat, guess who... They even can't win same class Aggro vs Aggro, why? Because of Reno Jackson and Kazakus, they're not on that matchup, but they're the ones to blame.
And at the end they "discovered" this tech, and they feel as if they are the Einsteins of this game. LoE is around for more than a year, TGT is around way before. This tech was always available to counter Reno, and Reno was a popular archtype during his whole existence. Renolock was a thing from the beginning, Life Tap thanked that assistance. And other became more popular since Kazakus arrival. BTG wasn't unknown, but no widespread usage because having just one is unreliable and already hurts a deck, two hurts even more.
My conclusion is: this is more revenge tech, than value tech. Guess which gives you better winrates!
And the fact that you can counter a turn 3 Brann by just playing BtG and still catch people off guard and see them drop Kazakus-concede on 4 is totally worth the lulz.
To go Brann on 3 to play Kazakus next: either was greedy or was so desperate and had really nothing else to play.
Turn 3 Brann is so risky, I would love to see the death rate % of turn 3 Brann, but it must be extremely high. Maybe he was a noob, got so excited to beat those unfavorable odds the played without thinking. Even a pirate warrior may not be that dumb to ignore a lonely Brann on board.
And finally is it worthy to play a Tier 4 deck, which pirate Rogue is, just for a revenge, when the same class has a tier 1 deck? Is it worthy to get steamrolled by the other aggros which still the most common ones out there? Pirate warrior (top tier) is on even ground with Renolock, Aggro Shaman (the top of them all) even has an edge... Is it really Reno's fault?
Control warrior and mid-range shaman can deal with both top aggros better than the other reno decks... Why no crying against them too? Hard to find a scapegoat, right?
Shut down Reno when I really need the heal and you win. Otherwise, I think you overestimate how devastating Beneath the Grounds is to my Kazakus. I can win without Kazakus - a lot. The games where I just auto-lose, Kazakus didn't matter. Reno mattered. If I didn't have Reno in time, I lose (vs. aggro). There are 2 cards responsible for easily 80+% of my wins in Renolock. Reno Jackson and Lord Jaraxxus. Kazakus is extremely powerful but he is not so important to my winrate with Renolock that without him, I lose.
I've won a few games with my Renolock vs. opponents that hit Brann + Kazakus and I never drew mine.
I've won a lot of games with my Renolock vs. opponents that pulled Kazakus with Dirty Rat.
I've won a lot of games with my Renolock vs. opponents that happened to tech Beneath the Grounds.
It's a simple answer whether you include/tech it or not. Do you need to shut down Reno Jackson? Notice what I said. Not Reno decks, but Reno Jackson specifically. If you can't overcome the heal to full on turn 6, then add it.
Otherwise, it may change your deck more than you think and if you don't pressure me fast enough vs. my Renolock, you lose - with or without my Kazakus.
Kazakus is extremely powerful but he is not so important to my winrate with Renolock that without him, I lose.
Of course, Kazakus value is a late game thing, versus other control. Against aggro it's more a desperate move to try to find a cheap AoE ASAP, when nothing else is available.
But bad aggro players, as bad players in general, just need a scapegoat for their failure.
I played some games where not even Reno could save me. And crushed some aggro matchups without even seeing any "highlander" card.
Beneath the Grounds has less value in Miracle rogue I think. I use it for my pirate/burgle rogue, usually I prep play it and play Edwin VanCleef etc. as a combo. But versus renodecks, is it a win condition? Not really. Most of the times they get Kazakus out at turn 4 or T7. If you can rush them down health-wise and play the card before lethal it works good. But would I recommend using it in miracle decks etc. naah.
Let's take the more general case: no Reno opponent.
As Miracle, you are going kinda slow. So, if you pop this card early enough, you're likely to get at least 1x 4/4 during the match. And you paid (3) for it, so it's ok. Good with Preparation, especially for Edwin drops.
Against Reno, you have to add the vital part where Reno is actually shut down. Possibly Kazakus too. It becomes a win condition.
The worst case is when you could have used something else instead, ie a good taunt against Aggro. But Miracle rogues don't particularly tech against Aggro anyway, so I can't see any card being a superior tech in the current meta where pretty much 3/9 classes (3/7 if you remove Hunter and Pally from the count) use Reno.
As the title says: Is it worth crafting Beneath the Grounds solely for the purpose of Miracle Rogue,knowing it will rotate out in couple of months ?
Definitely not worth it. It's good against reno mage mostly and against reno lock too ( but your win rate against lock is positive as miracle) but it's a dead card against every aggro deck, decks that run rampant on ladder at the moment. And even if you had it, your win rate against mage wouldn't improve THAT much. It is interesting to try it for sure, but giving up on 400 dusts for that is not a thing you would do
No, it's a cool trick but nowhere near worth it. Clever but not good enough. Too situational and it waters down your deck too against anything none Reno.
No. I crafted one and swapped it with one fan of knives. I always seemed to draw it my opening hand when playing against aggro and it was usually buried within the last 7 cards of my deck when facing reno. Maybe running 2 copies would be better? I personally don't think it is worth it. Even if you get it out before reno, they are likely to get kazakus out before you find BtG. Then there is always the possibility that they draw two Nerubians quickly and activate reno anyway. Of course I could just be bad player, and you will do well with it.
Been trying to explain this on that Pirate BTG Rogue deck page, created by a salty guy against Reno.
But I learned my lesson, never try to be reasonable in a page based on frustration and infested with SMOrce'rs whose dream of "balanced" would be a cheap mana card with battlecry: if you have or hold a pirate and a weapon, deal 30 damage to enemy hero. Maybe pwn should consider make deck pages reportable... because that one is a shame to this community, yet still front paged. Nothing against any kind of deck, if people up vote enough, it deserves the spotlight. But when the language level goes that low, something has to be done.
And a few days ago, I tried it on a Miracle list: won some Reno games without it, it was painful to have it versus aggro... And then, had two pirates on board plus an 8/8 Edwin, opponent draws an ambush, my big guy gets stolen by Mind Control Tech... Smart**s got smart***ed!
EDIT: I forgot to say, still crying my 400 dust. Miracle Rogue does already great without it.
Thank you all for your insight and kind words. Logically,it does not fare well against aggro..and Reno decks aren't worth it.
Considering most of the ladder is Reno. Yes, it stops Reno mage, Reno lock and Reno Dragon priest
My Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/c/philwasted
It stops EVERY single deck that suited for Highlander decks, and contain
Reno Jackson
Kazakus
Inkmaster Solia
Krul the Unshackled
Raza the Chained
So they unable to do their work because of 3 cards in their deck.
My Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/c/philwasted
My Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/c/philwasted
I teched it into mine for a swashburgler since pretty much the only way I lose to reno decks is some kazakas bullshit with limited success. It may not help with aggro must of the time, but if you cam prep it out it at least gives you the chance for some additional board presence, and I've rather have that stuck in my hand then an auctioneer
BTG kills Reno decks with the current Standard set - it will also shut them down in Wild where they will be rampant, and possibly in Tavern Brawls as well.
And finally is it worthy to play a Tier 4 deck, which pirate Rogue is, just for a revenge, when the same class has a tier 1 deck? Is it worthy to get steamrolled by the other aggros which still the most common ones out there? Pirate warrior (top tier) is on even ground with Renolock, Aggro Shaman (the top of them all) even has an edge... Is it really Reno's fault?
Control warrior and mid-range shaman can deal with both top aggros better than the other reno decks... Why no crying against them too? Hard to find a scapegoat, right?
Shut down Reno when I really need the heal and you win. Otherwise, I think you overestimate how devastating Beneath the Grounds is to my Kazakus. I can win without Kazakus - a lot. The games where I just auto-lose, Kazakus didn't matter. Reno mattered. If I didn't have Reno in time, I lose (vs. aggro). There are 2 cards responsible for easily 80+% of my wins in Renolock. Reno Jackson and Lord Jaraxxus. Kazakus is extremely powerful but he is not so important to my winrate with Renolock that without him, I lose.
I've won a few games with my Renolock vs. opponents that hit Brann + Kazakus and I never drew mine.
I've won a lot of games with my Renolock vs. opponents that pulled Kazakus with Dirty Rat.
I've won a lot of games with my Renolock vs. opponents that happened to tech Beneath the Grounds.
It's a simple answer whether you include/tech it or not. Do you need to shut down Reno Jackson? Notice what I said. Not Reno decks, but Reno Jackson specifically. If you can't overcome the heal to full on turn 6, then add it.
Otherwise, it may change your deck more than you think and if you don't pressure me fast enough vs. my Renolock, you lose - with or without my Kazakus.
Beneath the Grounds has less value in Miracle rogue I think. I use it for my pirate/burgle rogue, usually I prep play it and play Edwin VanCleef etc. as a combo. But versus renodecks, is it a win condition? Not really. Most of the times they get Kazakus out at turn 4 or T7. If you can rush them down health-wise and play the card before lethal it works good. But would I recommend using it in miracle decks etc. naah.
best 400 dust I spent , totally shuts down Reno-tards .
Season 36 = Legend Rank 60 . ( https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/20695745 )
Let's take the more general case: no Reno opponent.
As Miracle, you are going kinda slow. So, if you pop this card early enough, you're likely to get at least 1x 4/4 during the match. And you paid (3) for it, so it's ok.
Good with Preparation, especially for Edwin drops.
Against Reno, you have to add the vital part where Reno is actually shut down. Possibly Kazakus too. It becomes a win condition.
The worst case is when you could have used something else instead, ie a good taunt against Aggro.
But Miracle rogues don't particularly tech against Aggro anyway, so I can't see any card being a superior tech in the current meta where pretty much 3/9 classes (3/7 if you remove Hunter and Pally from the count) use Reno.