Hearthpwn

Gonna be so fun climbing the ladder for more casual players when every game is 15 minutes long. Good solution.

Does no one remember when Control Warrior was every other deck you played? Ugh, I hated that way more than when aggro has dominated. At least with aggro you lose or win quickly.

Quote from DMaster2 >>

Quote from gagan_dugan >>

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Quote from futhead_Usernamehere >>

I think most if not all aggro decks would not be played at a viable level on ladder

 Good riddance

 Most people who play this game would disagree with you. Most of the playerbase likes fast games. Aggro is popular, whether you like it or not.

 Thank god i have my own brain then. The meta is fast since vanilla pretty much, how about having ONE SLOW/CONTROL FORMAT for once? Just to try and see how it feels. Because i never saw one.

While charge is a pretty scummy mechanic, the real issue is with the Raging Worgen, the combination of Charge + Windfury + Inner Fury + Ramage + Faceless Manipulator.  It's a little like the prenerf Druid Combo of Treants + Savage Roar.  Individually the cards were fine, but when comboed they make a disgusting powerhouse.

Inner Rage is one of the very few card which still gives a free buff.  Soul Fire, Flare, Hunter's mark, all used to be 0 mana (iirc), maybe it's time Inner Rage lost it's magic status, after all +2 attack for 1 damage is pretty disgusting. That said maybe they also need to look at Faceless Manipulator, 5 mana is a little too cheap for a card which can copy any other card in the game along with it's inherent buffs.

The problem with charge is all the stupid otks. That is the only problem. Lets take grommash for instance. He is an 8 mana card with charge. But the guy isnt that broken because he has to be damaged and can be removed rather easily. But worgen/anyfin gets annoying because its charge minions out of nowhere. Its not 1 its 2-5 which is unacceptable. Its the same problem with the old patron warrior. 

Overall, Charge was a design mistake. This isn't MtG where the counter to Haste is "have any untapped creature" - minion combat just doesn't work like that in this game,  you need Taunt or you're helpless. Stealth is fine, and is a fair implementation of the same concept. I wouldn't go so far as saying there shouldn't be any minions with Charge, but it should really be so few that it doesn't get its own keyword - instead it's "This minion can attack the turn it's summoned." Mostly on stuff like Icehowl.

This has to be joke right?

The solution is a different mechanic and its called Taunt. Don't like agrro use taunt, there is totally nothing wrong with charge.

Quote from OldKeith >>

People complaining about Wolfrider in this thread? What has this world come to?

@Sykomyke

I'm not trying to get far at all, the absurdity of my comment is on the same level of the thread. Charge, as a mechanic omnipresent in card games under different names and cards utilizing it are balanced in appropriate way and have efficient counter-measures. OP should be aware of that before opening a new thread to complain about losing to aggro decks. Hope that's contributing enough, i will answer more decent in the future, i got a warning for this.

Patron meta...  Fast?

Patron was otk, which I would say is a midrange archetype because it wins turn 8-11 usually. It also countered aggro hard. But yeah this meta is slower than lots in the past, for instance post patron where you could play one of three aggro decks. 

They removed all the charge I feel is a problem since then, in other words, arcane golem. In the modern meta charge is not the problem, all the decks that use it are low tier. When miracle is insane it is due to Edwin not leeroy. 

Quote from Sykomyke >>

MTG Has trap cards and instants. 'Nuff said

 

Quote from ambershee >>

Quote from Sykomyke >>

MTG Has trap cards and instants. 'Nuff said

 

In  MTG, all minions have implicit taunt, since you can choose any minion as a blocker unless it explicitly says otherwise on either card.

Patron was not an OTK deck.

Quote from stormcry0 >>

Quote from Sykomyke >>

MTG Has trap cards and instants. 'Nuff said

 

 eehm ehhmm, no, that's YGO, magic has instant spells and flash creatures.. ehm, just nitpicking I know.

EDIT: oh, and by the way, this necroing has gone too long, we are at the third page now, can we lock this down please?

Quote from Slarg232 >>

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uuuhhhh

there's nothing wrong with charge and this thread is stupid?

I'm not alone of this, right?

 Actually there is a lot wrong with charge.  Look at how other online card games handle "charge" (or whatever mechanic it's called in other games) the same way.

Here's our baseline for comparison: Wolfrider

Might and Magic: Duel of Champions

  

This card requires 4 mana, 3 Strength (a secondary requirement) and also dies at the end of the turn).  It's main functionality is 3 damage removal on legs that can synergize with some graveyard mechanics. (as opposed to running a spell that does 3 damage)  If you want to go face with this card you essentially will lose it at the end of the turn.

Elder Scrolls: Legends :

 

This (Red - Strength) card is 3 mana, but only 2 attack. So compared to our wolfrider this guy is better at trading, I'd say this card is fairly similar in role to the Stormwind Knight, just having less health.

Another color (Green - Agility ) card from ESL below

Another color Again, just 2 attack.  The theme here?  You pay for charge,  it's attack is never equal to it's mana cost.  Sure the orc had more health then wolfrider, and so does this bat, which actually has drain.  Now I'd say in terms of role, the bat is more in line with wolfrider since it has drain (essentially heals the hero for the damage done), so this card is usually to better go face with.  But the point?  Still less attack for it's mana cost.

Faeria

 

This card is almost exactly like Pao Deathseeker from MM:DoC,  it's slightly less mana, but has 2 land requirements, and dies at the end of the turn. 

This is what wolfrider SHOULD have been like (similar stats).  A 3 mana, 2/1 with charge.  

Conclusion:

Every other game out there realizes charge is a powerful mechanic and as you can see, makes sure that their charge minions generally have less attack than their mana cost.  There are always going to be exceptions to the rule, however in the cases where there are exceptions (Pao Deathseeker, Wind Rider) the charge minion has negative card text.

The only card that we see similar negative card text on that also has charge (in Hearthstone) is Leeroy Jenkins.  Which I think is still a badly tuned card since it's only used as a finisher. 

Charge should be a "catch up" mechanic, and thus should have a cost associated for it's ability to immediately act.  A 3/1 wolfrider with no downside?  It's overtuned.  

I  know that charge isn't limited to just wolfrider,  however I wanted to point out that charge is not the balanced mechanic that a lot of people think it is in hearthstone.  The other games also have other limiting factors that prevent charge from being an out of control mechanic. (ESL and MM:DoC have lanes that can be blocked through various keywords and mechanics, Faeria has actual distance you have to travel as well as keywords that can block it).

Hopefully this sheds some insight into the industry standard for charge.

 

 And over in MTG, we have Spark Elemental (1 mana 3/1 Haste, dies at the end of turn), Goblin Guide (1 mana 2/2 Haste with minor drawback), Hellspark Elemental (2 mana 3/1 haste, dies at end of turn. If it's in your graveyard, you may pay 2 mana to bring it back to the battlefield), and Craterhoof Behemoth (8 mana, Haste, All creatures you control gain Trample (Damage spills over if blocked) and gain +x/+x, where x is the number of creatures you control).

 

Hearthstone's Charge mechanic is fine.  

There is nothing wrong with charge. You are really just complaining about aggro in general. Yes, the last hit to kill you was Leeroy Jenkins, but you were in lethal range turn 6 because of everything that happened before that.

Blizzard seems not to want to do anything about slowing down aggro, so you'll just have to get used to it. Out of the 45 new cards , most of them do damage, spawn stuff, buff things, or a combination of those things. Priest of the feast and Ivory Knight are the only 2 cards that are kind of control, but not even really. Prince Malchezar is a joke, as are most other "control" cards that aren't really control.

I think charge should have a battlecry-like mechanic, existing only when you play the minion from hand or buff it with Charge.

You would still have 30-dmg OTK with Raging Worgen + 2x Inner Rage + 2x Rampage + Charge, but this is hard to pull of (you need to survive untill you have these exact 6 cards. But you would lose the Faceless Manipulator combos, which are pretty non-interactive, and Evolve and Forbidden Shaping, Mind Games and the like would be less powerful (not that it needed them to be, though).

They nerfed Force of Nature + Savage Roar combo, which was a 14-dmg combo for 2 cards and 9 mana. Why should they nerf similar things?

I think any thing that can do 20+ dmg in a single turn out of nothing should not exist (except for C'Thun, because the damage is random and you need to work your game into it, or your opponent playing Millhouse Manastorm into your hand with Archmage Antonidas and any other mage spell) and Yogg-Saron, Hope's End because it can do 20+ dmg to your own face too, it's actually more common to do 20+ dmg to your own face than to your opponent's, since it will almost always fatigue you when you are low on cards). If you want to pull something like that off, you need to work your game onto it: token generation, buffing C'Thun, etc. 

How about:
Charge minions have to target something WHEN they are played, like a targeted battlecry -- making buffs other than "when you summon a minion"-effects impossible?

A warrior's Charge card would read: Give the next minion you summon Charge.

Moved to Card Discussion