It's actually interesting how little direct power creep there's been in Hearthstone so far. I think Dr. Boom is literally the only neutral minion that's strictly better than another minion (War Golem) so far.
Not directly no. Nothing replaced yeti 4/5 or Boulder Fist Ogre 6/7. So far there have been no 4/6 (fireguard fits the decription but is a class specific) and 6/8 (with the exception of dragonid crusher). They won't directly increase but the will add new cards that can replace them.
Edit: You could argue that the shredders replaced yeti, and boulderfist ogre with only a slight risk of getting a very bad outcome. Otherwise in the best scenarios the shredder are better if not twice as better because of their drops and "stickyness".
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
But since then I realized that this is due to the fact that HS is a relatively new card game and further expansions (such as BRM just did) will improve this situation.
I forgot to mention that while they are adding new cards that "replace" the old ones, they are adding new cards give the old cards new use. Such as Hobgoblin, Unstable Portal, Demonheart, Floating Watcher(with fire imp/Dread infernals), Ship's Cannon, Call Pet. I doubt they would include a lot more cards that function this way but hey it their choice on whether they want introduce similar cards.
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If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
Edit: You could argue that the shredders replaced yeti, and boulderfist ogre with only a slight risk of getting a very bad outcome. Otherwise in the best scenarios the shredder are better if not twice as better because of their drops and "stickyness".
I suppose you could argue that Shredders replaced Yeti, but I would disagree with anyone that says that. Shredder's health of 3 actually makes the initial body more likely to trade down (due to the amount of 3 attacks that 2 and 3 drops have) and the second body is usually not going to trade with a 4 drop ether (with the potential of getting you something pretty bad that just dies to Hero Power), while Yeti is guaranteed 2 for 1 if it trades down or at the very least trade evenly with 4 drops.
I said in the best/worst scenario. And yes I agree with the part about 3 health and the left-over minion being the "downside", however yeti dies to a fireball and leaves nothing where a shredder can get hit by flame strike and have something left on the board. Again the Shredders did not directly replace them stat wise.
Edit: also shredders, yeti, and boulder fist ogre serves different puposes for different class. (e.g priest would pick yeti over piloted shredder since you cannot heal it effectively or Shamans would pick Piloted shredder over yeti because the left over minion can be used with flame tongue totem).
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They are simply strong cards and can be in any decks. They do not need any synergy to be strong.
They kill variety in deck building. What I want is a card like Mimiron's Head or Old Murk-Eye. Yes, it is a card that strong in specific deck not a card that strong in all decks. That is what card game should be.
Both cards can easily be dealt with if you have the right cards and the right player. ;)
Dr. Boom is kind of like Pot of Greed. So if you want to talk about "auto include" cards, some other card games has it much worse. Yes I'm aware that Pot of Greed is banned from the tournaments.
They are simply strong cards and can be in any decks. They do not need any synergy to be strong.
They kill variety in deck building. What I want is a card like Mimiron's Head or Old Murk-Eye. Yes, it is a card that strong in specific deck not a card that strong in all decks. That is what card game should be.
Both cards can easily be dealt with if you have the right cards and the right player. ;)
That is not what I'm talking about here.
It's exactly what I am talking about. If you understand how to play the game then you understand how to deal with these cards. Unfortunately, this is something that you lack. Instead you post this thread and would rather complain about it then try to better yourself.
They are simply strong cards and can be in any decks. They do not need any synergy to be strong.
They kill variety in deck building. What I want is a card like Mimiron's Head or Old Murk-Eye. Yes, it is a card that strong in specific deck not a card that strong in all decks. That is what card game should be.
Both cards can easily be dealt with if you have the right cards and the right player. ;)
That is not what I'm talking about here.
It's exactly what I am talking about. If you understand how to play the game then you understand how to deal with these cards. Unfortunately, this is something that you lack. Instead you post this thread and would rather complain about it then try to better yourself.
Seem like you cannot understand what we are talking about here.
It's actually interesting how little direct power creep there's been in Hearthstone so far. I think Dr. Boom is literally the only neutral minion that's strictly better than another minion (War Golem) so far.
Not directly no. Nothing replaced yeti 4/5 or Boulder Fist Ogre 6/7. So far there have been no 4/6 (fireguard fits the decription but is a class specific) and 6/8 (with the exception of dragonid crusher). They won't directly increase but the will add new cards that can replace them.
Edit: You could argue that the shredders replaced yeti, and boulderfist ogre with only a slight risk of getting a very bad outcome. Otherwise in the best scenarios the shredder are better if not twice as better because of their drops and "stickyness".
I wouldn't argue about shredders replacing ogre because:
1. they don't act the same. Yeti survives better with their full damage intact (yes shredder 'survives' but with typically a lower damage) while ogre..well, a 6/7 for 6 has nothing to do with a 4/3 for 4.
2. No one replaced a yeti or ogre with a shredder in any of their decks. That's because, for all that we talk about how great those cards are, no one competitive used yetis or ogres for a long long time . New accounts used them more as placeholders that don't really fit their tasks but it's all you have.
Yeit and orge do well for the "big, tanky minions with decent damage" role. It's just that we've never NEEDED such cards. We've needed "cards that are weaker but stole other cards." or "cards that turn into other cards" or the like. If the meta ever asked for a "big tanky minion with decent damage." then nothing would outdo a Yeti or Ogre.
Remember, it's not just about whether a card doesn't fit the meta (otherwise, we'd start saying that Arcane Golem is better than Highmane right now). It's whether a meta that would've had yeti as the Best choice would rather have NewCard instead. In that only Boom would fit..maybe
(maybe because vs mill decks and UTH the LAST thing you want is to have lots of minions on the field, but even then that's a stretch to say "I'd rather have War golem :P)
Id like to add my two cents in....whether it be noticed or not oh well. I have played TCG's and CCG's literally my entire life and in every single one of them no matter how big or small the card pool is there are ALWAYS "auto-includes". There are always top tier decks that include top tier cards. actually IMO that's one of the natural balancings of the game.
Id like to add my two cents in....whether it be noticed or not oh well. I have played TCG's and CCG's literally my entire life and in every single one of them no matter how big or small the card pool is there are ALWAYS "auto-includes". There are always top tier decks that include top tier cards. actually IMO that's one of the natural balancings of the game.
True,but those autoinclude-cards usually are different from deck to deck and not 1 card being included in almost every deck (atleast in those tcg's i played in the past).
In my opinion, "natural balance" would have to include some form of backfirepossibility such as bombs hitting ANY minion (yours of your opponents) for example.
I suppose I'm curious as to what card games you've played that are comparable, and to what extent.
MTG for example has many different formats, but there are definitely "auto-include" cards in all of them.
I played Legacy, which, save for a banned list, contains the entirety of the MTG card pool. Despite the 20,000+ cards to choose from, cards like Force of Will and Wasteland are pretty much "auto-includes".
In vintage, it's even more prevalent. So much so that nearly all archetypes are classified by their specific "auto include" card.
In Modern, I'm not entirely sure.
Standard is probably not a fair example, because the cards are constantly rotating out, but there are definitely certain cards that see a TON more play than others competitively.
I haven't played Yugioh since I was like 12, but I remember at the time there were definitely auto-include cards. If you weren't running Mirror Force, Pot of Greed, and a number of other cards, you weren't going to be competitive. This may have changed due to printings/bannings/format changes, but the point remains the same.
True most top tier cards in most TCG's have some sort of back fire such as being slower or something but you gotta remember hearthstones card pool is EXTREMELY small at this point
I dabbled in MTG and i played Vanguard (which is newer) pokemon tcg and yugioh all competativly (except pokemon) and while they are certainly different in how they play they all have the same basic concepts. They all have a natural balancing through theyre cards through the use of a ban list or in vanguards case card speed/combo potential i think if hearthstones card pool increased a lot of these "auto-includes" would cease to be "auto-includes" and just be variants
True most top tier cards in most TCG's have some sort of back fire such as being slower or something but you gotta remember hearthstones card pool is EXTREMELY small at this point
Is that true? I'll admit that I only have experience with Hearthstone and MTG, but in both those cases the whole point is that they don't really have backfire or whatever you want to call it. Once it's cast you're way ahead regardless of what your opponent does about it, which is the whole point.
In most tcg's and ccg's the cost of the card is usually a pretty big set back in itself. They give you an advantage but if your opponent can take care of it and not exhaust himself it could a) push him ahead or b) even the board state
Right, but the cards that are the most powerful and see the most play are usually the ones that break that rule. The reason they're so good is that they're much better than the other things at that cost. This usually means that the drawback of their cost, if their even is one, is negligible. That was the problem with Undertaker, for example. It did too much for it's cost and almost all the ways of dealing with it still left you behind. MTG is full of cards like that too.
But in MTG there are enough cards out there to help support players against those cards. right now hearthstone just doesn't have that kind of capacity
Card pool doesn't have that much to do with it. While a larger card pool would solve a lot of problems that hearthstone has, it doesn't change the fact that some cards will always be the best for a certain job.
Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Shock. In this case a larger card pool is to the detriment of certain cards.
The biggest equalizer in MTG isn't the card pool, but the nature of the game. It's inherently more interactive because you can play things on your opponents turn.
I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but as I and several other people have said over and over in this thread, there are no "auto-include" cards in Hearthstone. Dr. Boom, though he is very powerful and has little competition at his mana cost, is used in about half the competitive decks in the current meta. That's a lot—it is a balance problem—but there are obviously many, many decks that have no use for him. When all the BRM cards are out, his popularity will decline, and when the next expansion comes out, it'll decline still further.
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Not directly no. Nothing replaced yeti 4/5 or Boulder Fist Ogre 6/7. So far there have been no 4/6 (fireguard fits the decription but is a class specific) and 6/8 (with the exception of dragonid crusher). They won't directly increase but the will add new cards that can replace them.
Edit: You could argue that the shredders replaced yeti, and boulderfist ogre with only a slight risk of getting a very bad outcome. Otherwise in the best scenarios the shredder are better if not twice as better because of their drops and "stickyness".
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
I had the same feeling some months ago and created a thread and made some researches to discuss this problem: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/34943-too-much-cards-that-you-must-include-in-every-deck
But since then I realized that this is due to the fact that HS is a relatively new card game and further expansions (such as BRM just did) will improve this situation.
12 wins in ArenA with: Mage and Paladin, first time legend with Rogue
I forgot to mention that while they are adding new cards that "replace" the old ones, they are adding new cards give the old cards new use. Such as Hobgoblin, Unstable Portal, Demonheart, Floating Watcher(with fire imp/Dread infernals), Ship's Cannon, Call Pet. I doubt they would include a lot more cards that function this way but hey it their choice on whether they want introduce similar cards.
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
I said in the best/worst scenario. And yes I agree with the part about 3 health and the left-over minion being the "downside", however yeti dies to a fireball and leaves nothing where a shredder can get hit by flame strike and have something left on the board. Again the Shredders did not directly replace them stat wise.
Edit: also shredders, yeti, and boulder fist ogre serves different puposes for different class. (e.g priest would pick yeti over piloted shredder since you cannot heal it effectively or Shamans would pick Piloted shredder over yeti because the left over minion can be used with flame tongue totem).
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
That is not what I'm talking about here.
Dr. Boom is kind of like Pot of Greed. So if you want to talk about "auto include" cards, some other card games has it much worse. Yes I'm aware that Pot of Greed is banned from the tournaments.
It's exactly what I am talking about. If you understand how to play the game then you understand how to deal with these cards. Unfortunately, this is something that you lack. Instead you post this thread and would rather complain about it then try to better yourself.
Seem like you cannot understand what we are talking about here.
I won't explain it to you because you are rude.
I totally and completely disagree with the OP. IMO
I wouldn't argue about shredders replacing ogre because:
1. they don't act the same. Yeti survives better with their full damage intact (yes shredder 'survives' but with typically a lower damage) while ogre..well, a 6/7 for 6 has nothing to do with a 4/3 for 4.
2. No one replaced a yeti or ogre with a shredder in any of their decks. That's because, for all that we talk about how great those cards are, no one competitive used yetis or ogres for a long long time . New accounts used them more as placeholders that don't really fit their tasks but it's all you have.
Yeit and orge do well for the "big, tanky minions with decent damage" role. It's just that we've never NEEDED such cards. We've needed "cards that are weaker but stole other cards." or "cards that turn into other cards" or the like. If the meta ever asked for a "big tanky minion with decent damage." then nothing would outdo a Yeti or Ogre.
Remember, it's not just about whether a card doesn't fit the meta (otherwise, we'd start saying that Arcane Golem is better than Highmane right now). It's whether a meta that would've had yeti as the Best choice would rather have NewCard instead. In that only Boom would fit..maybe
(maybe because vs mill decks and UTH the LAST thing you want is to have lots of minions on the field, but even then that's a stretch to say "I'd rather have War golem :P)
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Id like to add my two cents in....whether it be noticed or not oh well. I have played TCG's and CCG's literally my entire life and in every single one of them no matter how big or small the card pool is there are ALWAYS "auto-includes". There are always top tier decks that include top tier cards. actually IMO that's one of the natural balancings of the game.
I suppose I'm curious as to what card games you've played that are comparable, and to what extent.
MTG for example has many different formats, but there are definitely "auto-include" cards in all of them.
I played Legacy, which, save for a banned list, contains the entirety of the MTG card pool. Despite the 20,000+ cards to choose from, cards like Force of Will and Wasteland are pretty much "auto-includes".
In vintage, it's even more prevalent. So much so that nearly all archetypes are classified by their specific "auto include" card.
In Modern, I'm not entirely sure.
Standard is probably not a fair example, because the cards are constantly rotating out, but there are definitely certain cards that see a TON more play than others competitively.
I haven't played Yugioh since I was like 12, but I remember at the time there were definitely auto-include cards. If you weren't running Mirror Force, Pot of Greed, and a number of other cards, you weren't going to be competitive. This may have changed due to printings/bannings/format changes, but the point remains the same.
True most top tier cards in most TCG's have some sort of back fire such as being slower or something but you gotta remember hearthstones card pool is EXTREMELY small at this point
I dabbled in MTG and i played Vanguard (which is newer) pokemon tcg and yugioh all competativly (except pokemon) and while they are certainly different in how they play they all have the same basic concepts. They all have a natural balancing through theyre cards through the use of a ban list or in vanguards case card speed/combo potential i think if hearthstones card pool increased a lot of these "auto-includes" would cease to be "auto-includes" and just be variants
Is that true? I'll admit that I only have experience with Hearthstone and MTG, but in both those cases the whole point is that they don't really have backfire or whatever you want to call it. Once it's cast you're way ahead regardless of what your opponent does about it, which is the whole point.
Nothing doing, traveler.
In most tcg's and ccg's the cost of the card is usually a pretty big set back in itself. They give you an advantage but if your opponent can take care of it and not exhaust himself it could a) push him ahead or b) even the board state
Right, but the cards that are the most powerful and see the most play are usually the ones that break that rule. The reason they're so good is that they're much better than the other things at that cost. This usually means that the drawback of their cost, if their even is one, is negligible. That was the problem with Undertaker, for example. It did too much for it's cost and almost all the ways of dealing with it still left you behind. MTG is full of cards like that too.
Nothing doing, traveler.
But in MTG there are enough cards out there to help support players against those cards. right now hearthstone just doesn't have that kind of capacity
Card pool doesn't have that much to do with it. While a larger card pool would solve a lot of problems that hearthstone has, it doesn't change the fact that some cards will always be the best for a certain job.
Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Shock. In this case a larger card pool is to the detriment of certain cards.
The biggest equalizer in MTG isn't the card pool, but the nature of the game. It's inherently more interactive because you can play things on your opponents turn.
I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but as I and several other people have said over and over in this thread, there are no "auto-include" cards in Hearthstone. Dr. Boom, though he is very powerful and has little competition at his mana cost, is used in about half the competitive decks in the current meta. That's a lot—it is a balance problem—but there are obviously many, many decks that have no use for him. When all the BRM cards are out, his popularity will decline, and when the next expansion comes out, it'll decline still further.