Discovery is a powerful mechanic and the ability for every class to utilize it is important, regardless of how saturated the meta is or is not by the discover mechanic at the moment.
Cards that discover themselves perpetuate an incredibly toxic experience for players. Primordial Glyph is when I first noticed the "try try again" method of discovering cards: if at first you don't succeed, just do it again. Mages in desperate need of a board clear or freeze suddenly had the chance of getting a redo at no cost to hunt for that needed spell, and there was always the chance of getting a second (or if you were really luck, a third) chance. Shadow Visions was a bit less of a cheat in finding itself for a redo, as there was no mana cheat and it was based solely on your deck, but it was toxic for its own separate reasons. Haunting Visions is the new Primordial Glyph with an aura, allowing a self-discovery loop (again, if you're lucky) that discounts any spell played after Visions in that turn, an easy decision to hunt for Plague of Murlocs or Hex is worth jumping through 3 Haunting Visions when you're behind and gambling on a discover (I have faced this more than a handful of times; it's never fun). Marked Shot into Marked Shot into the next turn's Marked Shot isn't a rare occurrence. Frightened Flunky now offers up to 5 2/2 taunts for warrior, with the last offering another target for Armagedillo.
Yadda yadda yadda, long story short: cards shouldn't be able to discover themselves. I think it's a bad design and offers nothing rewarding or fun to the opponent.
Thoughts?
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
It's part of the game. Also has been. Always will.
Plenty of things have been part of the game that have changed. Charge minions stopped getting made. Cards have been nerfed every year. Change is as much a part of the game as anything else.
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
This wouldn't be at the top of the list of things that bother me about the game right now.
Then wouldn't those find a better audience in a post about those things? I wouldn't deny there are bigger problems, but that's not really the point of the thread.
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
It is a very valid thing to discuss if something like this should be "part of the game".
I kind of like it usually. It creates interesting corner case scenarios, some which are just high rolls. High rolls are fun if they are not very likely. Sometimes you can make plays that are only ways to win based on getting an extra spell. Things like that actually reward good play because many players won´t consider that possibility.
All of this said, there is maybe a sweet spot when a card is too likely to discover itself. It shouldn´t happen that often, I agree (which is almost never the case anyway). I guess if the discover pool is very small it can start being a bit awkward. But then you could say that the discover mechanic works best when there is a fairly large pool to choose from.
It is a very valid thing to discuss if something like this should be "part of the game".
I kind of like it usually. It creates interesting corner case scenarios, some which are just high rolls. High rolls are fun if they are not very likely. Sometimes you can make plays that are only ways to win based on getting an extra spell. Things like that actually reward good play because many players won´t consider that possibility.
All of this said, there is maybe a sweet spot when a card is too likely to discover itself. It shouldn´t happen that often, I agree (which is almost never the case anyway). I guess if the discover pool is very small it can start being a bit awkward. But then you could say that the discover mechanic works best when there is a fairly large pool to choose from.
I think there are more interesting interactions in matches when cards that generate value don't generate themselves. This pseudo-infinite scenario creates scenarios in which someone who is out-played suddenly gets to hunt for a solution multiple times based on a single card looping itself. For example, Warriors creating 3-5 Flunkys isn't a feel-good swing turn. If that's your swing turn, it's based solely on your discovery pool giving you an answer you either didn't have in your deck or your first round of discovery, or you used it earlier in the match.
RNG is fine, but when your options include "Eh, the first time didn't work, here's another go at it," it tends to feel pretty bad. And players feeling bad was reason enough for Blizzard to nerf a few cards recently.
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
The thing is the value you're talking about OP exists in the same meta where aggressive decks can do amazingly powerful things. All things are checks and balances to something else, even if they're not effective at it. To change what you suggest would require a complete overhaul of the entire meta, every class, every expansion.
tl;dr It's not practical to change what OP suggests unless you are committed to actually balancing the whole game. Too short-sighted to make isolated changes without acknowledging the overall effects on the game.
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If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
This only slight botter me is the new warrior minion discover itself, but consider what warrior have right now in your arsenal it is almost irrelevant.
I made a post about this about a month ago about how stupid it is for hunters like you were mentioning cast Marked Shot and they just rediscover another Marked Shot into another one and into another, like this shit is happening in wild too and they have way more cards in the pool. But somehow they still keep getting stupid Marked Shot. The OG of this crap discover that I remember is Stonehill Defender. Remember games where they would drop 3 in a row. Yeah we can all take a minute and thank Stonehill Defender for starting this discover itself crap and I totally agree with you, they should NOT be able to discover the same card, especially in Standard, I'm okay with this in wild, it's a crap shoot there anyway.
There is an interesting discrepancy in the consistency of spells in Hearthstone. In particular, I remember there was an official word (I forget who from; Mike Donais maybe?) that the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron would never cast itself. And yet, I am certain (though margin of error / could be wrong) that Deck of Wonders can cast itself. So whether Discover should / can cast itself is pretty much up for grabs, because there appears to be no set convention. Obviously random casting is slightly different to the Discover mechanic - unless you take it as "Discover a choice of 1 spell and cast it at random target/s" - but I'd say that the basis of the mechanic should still be consistent.
Discovery is a powerful mechanic and the ability for every class to utilize it is important, regardless of how saturated the meta is or is not by the discover mechanic at the moment.
Cards that discover themselves perpetuate an incredibly toxic experience for players. Primordial Glyph is when I first noticed the "try try again" method of discovering cards: if at first you don't succeed, just do it again. Mages in desperate need of a board clear or freeze suddenly had the chance of getting a redo at no cost to hunt for that needed spell, and there was always the chance of getting a second (or if you were really luck, a third) chance. Shadow Visions was a bit less of a cheat in finding itself for a redo, as there was no mana cheat and it was based solely on your deck, but it was toxic for its own separate reasons. Haunting Visions is the new Primordial Glyph with an aura, allowing a self-discovery loop (again, if you're lucky) that discounts any spell played after Visions in that turn, an easy decision to hunt for Plague of Murlocs or Hex is worth jumping through 3 Haunting Visions when you're behind and gambling on a discover (I have faced this more than a handful of times; it's never fun). Marked Shot into Marked Shot into the next turn's Marked Shot isn't a rare occurrence. Frightened Flunky now offers up to 5 2/2 taunts for warrior, with the last offering another target for Armagedillo.
Yadda yadda yadda, long story short: cards shouldn't be able to discover themselves. I think it's a bad design and offers nothing rewarding or fun to the opponent.
Thoughts?
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
It's part of the game. Also has been. Always will.
This wouldn't be at the top of the list of things that bother me about the game right now.
Plenty of things have been part of the game that have changed. Charge minions stopped getting made. Cards have been nerfed every year. Change is as much a part of the game as anything else.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Then wouldn't those find a better audience in a post about those things? I wouldn't deny there are bigger problems, but that's not really the point of the thread.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
It is a very valid thing to discuss if something like this should be "part of the game".
I kind of like it usually. It creates interesting corner case scenarios, some which are just high rolls. High rolls are fun if they are not very likely. Sometimes you can make plays that are only ways to win based on getting an extra spell. Things like that actually reward good play because many players won´t consider that possibility.
All of this said, there is maybe a sweet spot when a card is too likely to discover itself. It shouldn´t happen that often, I agree (which is almost never the case anyway). I guess if the discover pool is very small it can start being a bit awkward. But then you could say that the discover mechanic works best when there is a fairly large pool to choose from.
I think there are more interesting interactions in matches when cards that generate value don't generate themselves. This pseudo-infinite scenario creates scenarios in which someone who is out-played suddenly gets to hunt for a solution multiple times based on a single card looping itself. For example, Warriors creating 3-5 Flunkys isn't a feel-good swing turn. If that's your swing turn, it's based solely on your discovery pool giving you an answer you either didn't have in your deck or your first round of discovery, or you used it earlier in the match.
RNG is fine, but when your options include "Eh, the first time didn't work, here's another go at it," it tends to feel pretty bad. And players feeling bad was reason enough for Blizzard to nerf a few cards recently.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
The thing is the value you're talking about OP exists in the same meta where aggressive decks can do amazingly powerful things. All things are checks and balances to something else, even if they're not effective at it. To change what you suggest would require a complete overhaul of the entire meta, every class, every expansion.
tl;dr It's not practical to change what OP suggests unless you are committed to actually balancing the whole game. Too short-sighted to make isolated changes without acknowledging the overall effects on the game.
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
I'm pretty fine as is. This happens not so often and adds more divercity to the game.
This only slight botter me is the new warrior minion discover itself, but consider what warrior have right now in your arsenal it is almost irrelevant.
I made a post about this about a month ago about how stupid it is for hunters like you were mentioning cast Marked Shot and they just rediscover another Marked Shot into another one and into another, like this shit is happening in wild too and they have way more cards in the pool. But somehow they still keep getting stupid Marked Shot. The OG of this crap discover that I remember is Stonehill Defender. Remember games where they would drop 3 in a row. Yeah we can all take a minute and thank Stonehill Defender for starting this discover itself crap and I totally agree with you, they should NOT be able to discover the same card, especially in Standard, I'm okay with this in wild, it's a crap shoot there anyway.
There is an interesting discrepancy in the consistency of spells in Hearthstone.
In particular, I remember there was an official word (I forget who from; Mike Donais maybe?) that the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron would never cast itself.
And yet, I am certain (though margin of error / could be wrong) that Deck of Wonders can cast itself.
So whether Discover should / can cast itself is pretty much up for grabs, because there appears to be no set convention.
Obviously random casting is slightly different to the Discover mechanic - unless you take it as "Discover a choice of 1 spell and cast it at random target/s" - but I'd say that the basis of the mechanic should still be consistent.