Luna's Pocket galaxy was virtually unplayable at 7 mana and is busted at 5 mana (apparently, i have yet to encounter it on curve) so maybe 6 mana would be a happy medium. Any nerf to Conjurer's Calling (that I've seen suggested anyway) would make the card completely unplayable. Removing mountain giant would make CC pretty much useless as well outside of really late game plays making it a really dead card most of the match. Mage is my main class but I played hunter most of last season because Oblivitron hunter was so fun. Right now the only thing propping mage up is Conjurer's Calling and Luna's Pocket galaxy which is making the class rather one dimensional, but this also means nerfing one or both of those cards could send mage to the gutter tier AGAIN which it just crawled out of from the last batch of nerfs -.-
I dunno I just want my favorite class to be fun and competitive again and not just one or the other
Nothing fun about getting 1 mana minions and then getting 2(or 4 ty Khadgar) 8+ cost minions in its place, all while you can't do anything because your getting frozen constantly, and if they don't have the answer in hand, just play the 8 mana minion (or 1 mana) and play a copy of Flamestrike or Blizzard.
It's a hell of a lot better than Exodia, but still not a fun thing to play against.
If Mage didn't have all the tools it has now to draw, Lunas would feel a lot better to play against, but they have so many draw cards (AI, SG Luna, Research Project), if you compare this to the Warlock Quest in which is a shit ton weaker than Lunas PG and requires 200x the effort for the pay off.
Reduce the cost of the minions to 3 and the card is ok for 5 manas, 1 is too strong and fine when the card cost 7.
At 7 mana LPG was never played in any competitive deck and even Blizzard realised it was underpowered enough to actually require them to buff a card for the first time ever. Thats a pretty good indicator that it really wasnt fine at 7 mana and needed a lot more than a 1 mana decrease to make it even slightly viable.
Just lost a game this morning to a (sorcs apprentice on board) turn 4 luna's, turn 5 1 mana phaoris into khadgar into conjurer's delivering 3x deathwings. I had no chance.
WTF I just got 5 mages in a row 4 of them had galaxy on 5..... If you are not playing agrro you may as well concede...since you are in for a game of solitaire.
Just lost a game this morning to a (sorcs apprentice on board) turn 4 luna's, turn 5 1 mana phaoris into khadgar into conjurer's delivering 3x deathwings. I had no chance.
Reduce the cost of the minions to 3 and the card is ok for 5 manas, 1 is too strong and fine when the card cost 7.
At 7 mana LPG was never played in any competitive deck and even Blizzard realised it was underpowered enough to actually require them to buff a card for the first time ever. Thats a pretty good indicator that it really wasnt fine at 7 mana and needed a lot more than a 1 mana decrease to make it even slightly viable.
That's the problem, this card is absolute bonkers so it makes sense that it is a high risk, high reward right? having 1 mana minions is no joke. especially with the current Mage minion and spell pool, it's a hard one to balance.
Reduce the cost of the minions to 3 and the card is ok for 5 manas, 1 is too strong and fine when the card cost 7.
At 7 mana LPG was never played in any competitive deck and even Blizzard realised it was underpowered enough to actually require them to buff a card for the first time ever. Thats a pretty good indicator that it really wasnt fine at 7 mana and needed a lot more than a 1 mana decrease to make it even slightly viable.
"Slightly viable", ahem.
The card didn't see any daylight at 7 and drastically increases your chance to win the game when being played at 5 (or 4 with the coin) so why should it become unplayable again at 6? Isn't it the ridiculous % mulligan win rate of DBMG what we don't want to exist in the game anymore? Why should Mage, a class which is certainly able to stall the game - especially versus board-centric decks - be treated in a different way? Also, CC is bullshit as it is, we all know that. No card with such a flexible field of application should be playable at only 3 mana. The question is, are they going to butcher the classic set even more by sending Mountain Giant to the HoF?
I would eat my shoe if they still weren't played at those costs. Mage has enough stall to make them viable still.
Luna's saw NO play at 7, despite being able to make minions cost 1. It was too slow and if you play that on turn 7 and do nothing at all, you will lose. A lot of classes have their big stuff out by then. That's why they buffed it. CC would still see some place, but not nearly as much.
I would eat my shoe if they still weren't played at those costs. Mage has enough stall to make them viable still.
"has enough stall" All the stall that mage has had over the years hasn't changed the fact that it's horridly weak to aggro and for the most part always has been.
The main reason why Mage feels broken is the mass amount of RNG their decks consist of and no one likes being on the bad end of RNG, even then Lunas costing 5 is definitely too powerful, finding middleground is the biggest hurdle.
I honestly don't understand how anyone in their right mind can defend Luna's in its current state. This card is disgusting right now especially considering how easily can a mage control the board before turn 5. Lots of freeze + they even have a board clear secret now.
Any card which creates binary conditions for a match is unhealthy. Barnes on 4, Keleseth on 2, Luna on 5. Basically, play this kind of card and win the game with a much higher percentage of success just because you were lucky enough to draw it.
I'd rather see LPG or Conjurer's Calling nerfed than the small spells and cards like mana cyclone personally. I have the mage quest and built a passable deck around it, a low winrate but high variability/ amount of shenanigans in games kind of deck. Losing cards like Ray of Frost, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Elemental Invocation, and Mana Cyclone would effectively kill that deck and, imo, Raid the Sky Temple off completely.
Honestly it feels like Conjurer's Calling is maybe the problem card couple with Mountain Giant having the elemental tag but increasing LPG to 6 seems fair given them high drawn winrate it has. Of course if you go that route you obviously have to nerf the Boom hero card as well to keep things fair.
Interestingly - on a side note - the average win rate of decks that play Luna's Pocket Galaxy is about 60%, according to HSReplay. Though the graph indicates it is lower than that. So with that sort of win rate, it is pretty clear that it is not at overbearing as it might seem. That's a pretty middle of the road win rate when you compare to other decks that are currently hitting the mid 60's right now.
I don't have premium on HSR though, so I cant see what the win rate looks like based on turn played.
The stat if Lunas is played on coin turn 4 or turn 5 is like a 66% win rate. I played a mirror yesterday where like usual I never get lunas during first 10 turns and my opponent got it turn 4. I get wrecked ofc lol.. really good card at turn 5. Archmage for 1 turn 6 is pretty OP lolol
So, following that logic LPG shouldn't be nerfed because e.g. Warrior has Mad Genius? Come on, there have been enough complaints about both classes that nerfs are pretty much warranted. NO deck should be able to keep a 7 - <SEVEN> - mana card in the opening hand and STILL be able to improve their % played win rate that much, otherwise that card is broken without doubt. It's the Keleseth or Rexxar drama all over again (personally, I refused to craft Dr. 2 and will never spend dust on him because I loathe such terrible card design)
The deck above has a 60,1% win rate on average. Over the course of 8,700 games Lunas Pocket Galaxy has been identified as the card with the highest % mulligan win rate of 70,7%! When drawn, it has the second highest % win rate of 64,6%, only 0,1 % right behind Zephrys. What about the % played win rate? Yeah, another close runners-up sporting 70,7% only surpassed by Alex! Seriously, does that sound right to you?
I played 20 or more matches against mage in this week. 90% of them played Lunas on Turn 4 or 5. Then I have no chance to win against it with my version of highlander druid. It should be reverted to 7 mana for health of the game.
1 Mana:
Kalecgos , Alexstratza & King Phaoris is too much to handle on Turn 6.
On hsreplay.com almost all meta decks have ~60% winrate, they all differ just 1-4 percent points.
Everybody - warrior, priest, paladin, shaman, hunter, mage etc - have a deck with ~60% win rate on hsreplay. There is no huge gaps as there were before in some expansions. Of course some tuning might be needed, but that is not as most of you offer to nerf to the ground (as blizzard had to like in past like with Warsong Commander).
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Nothing fun about getting 1 mana minions and then getting 2(or 4 ty Khadgar) 8+ cost minions in its place, all while you can't do anything because your getting frozen constantly, and if they don't have the answer in hand, just play the 8 mana minion (or 1 mana) and play a copy of Flamestrike or Blizzard.
It's a hell of a lot better than Exodia, but still not a fun thing to play against.
If Mage didn't have all the tools it has now to draw, Lunas would feel a lot better to play against, but they have so many draw cards (AI, SG Luna, Research Project), if you compare this to the Warlock Quest in which is a shit ton weaker than Lunas PG and requires 200x the effort for the pay off.
At 7 mana LPG was never played in any competitive deck and even Blizzard realised it was underpowered enough to actually require them to buff a card for the first time ever. Thats a pretty good indicator that it really wasnt fine at 7 mana and needed a lot more than a 1 mana decrease to make it even slightly viable.
Just lost a game this morning to a (sorcs apprentice on board) turn 4 luna's, turn 5 1 mana phaoris into khadgar into conjurer's delivering 3x deathwings. I had no chance.
Fun and interactive.
Nerf khadgar to 4 mana and lunas back to 7.
Just ranting but....
WTF I just got 5 mages in a row 4 of them had galaxy on 5..... If you are not playing agrro you may as well concede...since you are in for a game of solitaire.
what a great game...
So basically "Make these cards unplayable."
That's the problem, this card is absolute bonkers so it makes sense that it is a high risk, high reward right? having 1 mana minions is no joke. especially with the current Mage minion and spell pool, it's a hard one to balance.
"Slightly viable", ahem.
The card didn't see any daylight at 7 and drastically increases your chance to win the game when being played at 5 (or 4 with the coin) so why should it become unplayable again at 6? Isn't it the ridiculous % mulligan win rate of DBMG what we don't want to exist in the game anymore? Why should Mage, a class which is certainly able to stall the game - especially versus board-centric decks - be treated in a different way? Also, CC is bullshit as it is, we all know that. No card with such a flexible field of application should be playable at only 3 mana. The question is, are they going to butcher the classic set even more by sending Mountain Giant to the HoF?
I would eat my shoe if they still weren't played at those costs. Mage has enough stall to make them viable still.
Luna's saw NO play at 7, despite being able to make minions cost 1. It was too slow and if you play that on turn 7 and do nothing at all, you will lose. A lot of classes have their big stuff out by then. That's why they buffed it. CC would still see some place, but not nearly as much.
"has enough stall" All the stall that mage has had over the years hasn't changed the fact that it's horridly weak to aggro and for the most part always has been.
The main reason why Mage feels broken is the mass amount of RNG their decks consist of and no one likes being on the bad end of RNG, even then Lunas costing 5 is definitely too powerful, finding middleground is the biggest hurdle.
I honestly don't understand how anyone in their right mind can defend Luna's in its current state. This card is disgusting right now especially considering how easily can a mage control the board before turn 5. Lots of freeze + they even have a board clear secret now.
Any card which creates binary conditions for a match is unhealthy. Barnes on 4, Keleseth on 2, Luna on 5. Basically, play this kind of card and win the game with a much higher percentage of success just because you were lucky enough to draw it.
I'd rather see LPG or Conjurer's Calling nerfed than the small spells and cards like mana cyclone personally. I have the mage quest and built a passable deck around it, a low winrate but high variability/ amount of shenanigans in games kind of deck. Losing cards like Ray of Frost, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Elemental Invocation, and Mana Cyclone would effectively kill that deck and, imo, Raid the Sky Temple off completely.
Honestly it feels like Conjurer's Calling is maybe the problem card couple with Mountain Giant having the elemental tag but increasing LPG to 6 seems fair given them high drawn winrate it has. Of course if you go that route you obviously have to nerf the Boom hero card as well to keep things fair.
I play alot of highlander control mage, and let me tell you, Lunas on 4 or 5 is absolutely busted, even against aggro decks like tempoe rogue.
1 mana big minions is simply too great of a tempo swing to counter.
Lunas on 6 would make sense, and the card would still be very very good.
Mage has tons of anti-aggro tools before turn 4 and 5, so it's not really lacking in that department.
The reason lunas on 7 wasn't played before, was because mage didn't have enough tools to take advantage of it.
If Lunas was 7 mana now, I bet it would STILL be played in highlander mage. It's that good.
Most people who hate didn't even play it. You may be lucky not that much often as you can imaging.
I played several new decks, highlander mage as well. Up to rank 3 for now with different decks.
It might seem LunaPG on 5 is busted, but other classes have their own busted things!
Conjurer's Calling might be fine at 4, but Luna's Pocket Galaxy seems to be fine at 5 at Hearthstone current meta.
https://hsreplay.net/cards/48198/lunas-pocket-galaxy?modal=premium#tab=recommended-decks
Interestingly - on a side note - the average win rate of decks that play Luna's Pocket Galaxy is about 60%, according to HSReplay. Though the graph indicates it is lower than that.
So with that sort of win rate, it is pretty clear that it is not at overbearing as it might seem.
That's a pretty middle of the road win rate when you compare to other decks that are currently hitting the mid 60's right now.
I don't have premium on HSR though, so I cant see what the win rate looks like based on turn played.
The stat if Lunas is played on coin turn 4 or turn 5 is like a 66% win rate. I played a mirror yesterday where like usual I never get lunas during first 10 turns and my opponent got it turn 4. I get wrecked ofc lol.. really good card at turn 5. Archmage for 1 turn 6 is pretty OP lolol
So, following that logic LPG shouldn't be nerfed because e.g. Warrior has Mad Genius? Come on, there have been enough complaints about both classes that nerfs are pretty much warranted. NO deck should be able to keep a 7 - <SEVEN> - mana card in the opening hand and STILL be able to improve their % played win rate that much, otherwise that card is broken without doubt. It's the Keleseth or Rexxar drama all over again (personally, I refused to craft Dr. 2 and will never spend dust on him because I loathe such terrible card design)
https://hsreplay.net/decks/hkXus8vwFzPL34IRn20Rpe/
The deck above has a 60,1% win rate on average. Over the course of 8,700 games Lunas Pocket Galaxy has been identified as the card with the highest % mulligan win rate of 70,7%! When drawn, it has the second highest % win rate of 64,6%, only 0,1 % right behind Zephrys. What about the % played win rate? Yeah, another close runners-up sporting 70,7% only surpassed by Alex! Seriously, does that sound right to you?
https://hsreplay.net/decks/Q8vE23Txwg2U3Ne9vGQpF/
61,9% win rate on average, 50.000 games, same bullshit... just related to Mad Genius (#1 64,9 % // #1 65,1% // #2 67,3%)
I played 20 or more matches against mage in this week. 90% of them played Lunas on Turn 4 or 5. Then I have no chance to win against it with my version of highlander druid. It should be reverted to 7 mana for health of the game.
1 Mana:
Kalecgos , Alexstratza & King Phaoris is too much to handle on Turn 6.
On hsreplay.com almost all meta decks have ~60% winrate, they all differ just 1-4 percent points.
Everybody - warrior, priest, paladin, shaman, hunter, mage etc - have a deck with ~60% win rate on hsreplay. There is no huge gaps as there were before in some expansions. Of course some tuning might be needed, but that is not as most of you offer to nerf to the ground (as blizzard had to like in past like with Warsong Commander).