"Tempo rogue" describe any rogue deck where tempo is the win condition, probably the list changes a lot, my version with spell damage works much better vs druid and much worse vs warrior than the most popular version.
Cool, this isn't about some fringe version you're running though. This is about what the general public considers as 'tempo rogue' and both those builds are anything but a hard counter to token druid.
I confirm that, tempo rogue hard counter token druid and is hard countered by any warrior deck.
Tempo rogue versus druid is literally 50-50 (50.3% in druid's favor, even). I guess you still haven't gotten the definition of "hard counter" down, huh?
Well, I played 29 times vs token druid with tempo rogue and win 29 times, never be in danger or luck/random/draw dependent in any of this games, yes, I call this hard counter, unfortunately the same is truth when I play vs warrior, not able to win a single game.
I prefer 210.000 games over 29 games, but that's just me...
"Tempo rogue" describe any rogue deck where tempo is the win condition, probably the list changes a lot, my version with spell damage works much better vs druid and much worse vs warrior than the most popular version.
People smuggled Fan of Knives into their lists, cut Heistbaron Togwaggle and Chef Nomi for Crystallizer and Bloodmage Thalnos - all of that just to get better vs Token Druid. I've played some Token Druid matches myself and I generally kill all Tempo Rogues, unless I draw poorly, or they play a surprise FoK and kill me 1-2 turns after that. Which is possible only if I didn't create a board in early turns, which means I'd die anyway.
Apart from that, there is no point teching against Control Warrior, as you're gonna lose it anyway.
Tempo or "Lackey" Rogue is played by over 25% of players at rank 1 and 30% at Legend accordingly to HS replay.
That's ridiculous. Something needs to be done. No single class should attract that many players at high ranks. It is obviously in need of an adjustment.
Tempo or "Lackey" Rogue is played by over 25% of players at rank 1 and 30% at Legend accordingly to HS replay.
That's ridiculous. Something needs to be done. No single class should attract that many players at high ranks. It is obviously in need of an adjustment.
I would normally agree, but the winrate for rogue isn't the highest in the game. That goes to druid, which is the third-most played in the game. We're still in a settling meta, so I'm not concerned about this just yet. The numbers show that even the best win rates for decks (druid and paladin) aren't the top-played decks.
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Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
I confirm that, tempo rogue hard counter token druid and is hard countered by any warrior deck.
Tempo rogue versus druid is literally 50-50 (50.3% in druid's favor, even). I guess you still haven't gotten the definition of "hard counter" down, huh?
Well, I played 29 times vs token druid with tempo rogue and win 29 times, never be in danger or luck/random/draw dependent in any of this games, yes, I call this hard counter, unfortunately the same is truth when I play vs warrior, not able to win a single game.
I prefer 210.000 games over 29 games, but that's just me...
I would normally agree, but the winrate for rogue isn't the highest in the game. That goes to druid, which is the third-most played in the game. We're still in a settling meta, so I'm not concerned about this just yet. The numbers show that even the best win rates for decks (druid and paladin) aren't the top-played decks.
In around 100 games so far 75% of my opponents have been tempo rogue, token druid and bomb/control warrior.
Yeah that's a super healthy meta... Anyone with a brain can see tempo rogue and bomb/control warrior are broken right now as well.
The only reason their figures aren't higher is because everybody is now forced to run 2 - 3 weapon removals.
The meta is also completely dominated by aggro decks. It's 1 of the crappest most unbalanced metas in the history of hearthstone.
Actually, anyone with a brain understands that what people choose to play -- especially during the first week -- doesn't always line up with what's strongest.
What actually makes a healthy meta is when every powerful deck has at least a couple of hard counters, and that is very much true right now. Khadgar Mage never loses against Warrior or Burgle Rogue. All Rogues lose to any Warrior. All Hunters counter all Warriors and Tempo Rogue. And even Druid, which is generally very strong, cannot stand up to Mech Paladin or Zoolock.
An example of an unhealthy meta would be the Midrange Hunter meta of earlier this year, or, from another perspective, the odd/even meta where every single deck contained Genn or Baku, which was the case before nerfs brought Hunter to the forefront.
If you can give an example of a Hearthstone meta that was healthier than what we're seeing now, I'd really love to hear about it. Post-Rogue-nerf Un'goro is the last truly diverse meta I can think of, and that died the moment Death Knights appeared.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
What I'm most happy about is that no deck is infuriating to play against (Read: Genn, Baku). Maybe it's just cause the meta is still quite fresh, but it seems like no deck is currently running stupid busted combos. All decks have their power spikes, but they just feel well balanced.
While I think it is fine and dandy to have 7 classes represented in the top 7. I think it would be a lot healthier if it was balanced around there being a good representative of each play style instead of each class. (Aggro, tempo, mid-range, combo, control)
As I look at that list I see all Aggro, tempo, and mid-range. Combo and Control players left in the cold.
I predicted this would happen after the cards were revealed. I also thought that tempo would rule the day. So, not terribly surprised to hear about tempo rogue being the shiz.
This all seems to be by design. They couldn't have not known control tools were lacking and combo decks were not well supported when they released the cards. I like playing control the most, and combo second. So, I find this meta lacking. Give me variety, not in classes but in archetypes!
If you can give an example of a Hearthstone meta that was healthier than what we're seeing now, I'd really love to hear about it. Post-Rogue-nerf Un'goro is the last truly diverse meta I can think of, and that died the moment Death Knights appeared.
That's the only example I could give. But that's because KotFT fucked this game sideways.
It is still early, people. While there are certain obvious winners (Warrior, Rogue), there's still some dust left to settle.
That said, I do expect we will see some nerfs not too long after Worlds. In particular, Elysiana is actively hurting Specialist Tournaments, and Vegas isn't too far away. I expect she'll be bumped to 10 mana so playing her twice is really difficult. Breaking the actual mechanics of tournament play has gotten cards in Magic (and to a lesser extent YGO) banned (nerfed in HS's case).
But a change like that suddenly makes Shudderwock Shaman more interesting.
Why? it is kept in check by Khadgar mage and warrior?
I don't play Rogue so I don't know. Is that true? If so, I take your point, perhaps I am just struggling against it.
That being said, it does seem to be seeing surprisingly high levels of play. My twitter feed is full of pros bragging about high legend status with some version of the common Rogue deck.
As a control shaman player, bomb warrior is 100% harder to deal with than control warrior. He actually threatens lethal between bombs and boom.
Control warrior is a total value game with no chance of killing you without highrolling Elysianna.
Cool, this isn't about some fringe version you're running though. This is about what the general public considers as 'tempo rogue' and both those builds are anything but a hard counter to token druid.
People smuggled Fan of Knives into their lists, cut Heistbaron Togwaggle and Chef Nomi for Crystallizer and Bloodmage Thalnos - all of that just to get better vs Token Druid. I've played some Token Druid matches myself and I generally kill all Tempo Rogues, unless I draw poorly, or they play a surprise FoK and kill me 1-2 turns after that. Which is possible only if I didn't create a board in early turns, which means I'd die anyway.
Apart from that, there is no point teching against Control Warrior, as you're gonna lose it anyway.
I've no clue what I'm doing...
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/vs-power-rankings-data-reaper-report/
Looks like I am right.
Tempo or "Lackey" Rogue is played by over 25% of players at rank 1 and 30% at Legend accordingly to HS replay.
That's ridiculous. Something needs to be done. No single class should attract that many players at high ranks. It is obviously in need of an adjustment.
I would normally agree, but the winrate for rogue isn't the highest in the game. That goes to druid, which is the third-most played in the game. We're still in a settling meta, so I'm not concerned about this just yet. The numbers show that even the best win rates for decks (druid and paladin) aren't the top-played decks.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
destroyed
VS has it as the highest winrate at legend.
Wow. Hyperbole much? The current Meta is as balanced as can be. 7 Decks over 7 Classes and not more than 3% between Win rates overall.
If that's unbalanced for you I'd hate to imagine what you think Balanced is...
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
Actually, anyone with a brain understands that what people choose to play -- especially during the first week -- doesn't always line up with what's strongest.
What actually makes a healthy meta is when every powerful deck has at least a couple of hard counters, and that is very much true right now. Khadgar Mage never loses against Warrior or Burgle Rogue. All Rogues lose to any Warrior. All Hunters counter all Warriors and Tempo Rogue. And even Druid, which is generally very strong, cannot stand up to Mech Paladin or Zoolock.
An example of an unhealthy meta would be the Midrange Hunter meta of earlier this year, or, from another perspective, the odd/even meta where every single deck contained Genn or Baku, which was the case before nerfs brought Hunter to the forefront.
If you can give an example of a Hearthstone meta that was healthier than what we're seeing now, I'd really love to hear about it. Post-Rogue-nerf Un'goro is the last truly diverse meta I can think of, and that died the moment Death Knights appeared.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
What I'm most happy about is that no deck is infuriating to play against (Read: Genn, Baku). Maybe it's just cause the meta is still quite fresh, but it seems like no deck is currently running stupid busted combos. All decks have their power spikes, but they just feel well balanced.
"Everyone! Get in here!"
While I think it is fine and dandy to have 7 classes represented in the top 7. I think it would be a lot healthier if it was balanced around there being a good representative of each play style instead of each class. (Aggro, tempo, mid-range, combo, control)
As I look at that list I see all Aggro, tempo, and mid-range. Combo and Control players left in the cold.
I predicted this would happen after the cards were revealed. I also thought that tempo would rule the day. So, not terribly surprised to hear about tempo rogue being the shiz.
This all seems to be by design. They couldn't have not known control tools were lacking and combo decks were not well supported when they released the cards. I like playing control the most, and combo second. So, I find this meta lacking. Give me variety, not in classes but in archetypes!
Galavant Animation
It depends on where you look. On metastats zoolock is not that far of from the other classes.
When you see rogues and warriors run lots of weapon removal, you know enough about the current meta..
That's the only example I could give. But that's because KotFT fucked this game sideways.
It is still early, people. While there are certain obvious winners (Warrior, Rogue), there's still some dust left to settle.
That said, I do expect we will see some nerfs not too long after Worlds. In particular, Elysiana is actively hurting Specialist Tournaments, and Vegas isn't too far away. I expect she'll be bumped to 10 mana so playing her twice is really difficult. Breaking the actual mechanics of tournament play has gotten cards in Magic (and to a lesser extent YGO) banned (nerfed in HS's case).
But a change like that suddenly makes Shudderwock Shaman more interesting.
Just hit rank 1 with Mech Paladin. 50% of my games today during the grind from 2-1 were Rogues. It took me 10 games to get there.
So 5 Rogues
3 Warriors
1 Zoolock
And an honourable mention to some guy playing "big" or "duel" paladin. He lost, but it terrified me when he pulled a massive minion on turn 5.
Edit: To be clear, I think we have a very healthy meta, but I think Rogue needs a nerf. I just don't know exactly what should be done.
Why? it is kept in check by Khadgar mage and warrior?
I don't play Rogue so I don't know. Is that true? If so, I take your point, perhaps I am just struggling against it.
That being said, it does seem to be seeing surprisingly high levels of play. My twitter feed is full of pros bragging about high legend status with some version of the common Rogue deck.
State of the game unhealthy as always.
Uhhhhh...
per VS: it's about 60/40 (57/43) rogue favored
per HSReplay: it's anywhere from 55 to 63% rogue favored
Tempo rogue is not that great