The death knights are rotating out, and it doesn't seem like any other class is getting as much consistent late game value and tempo as Rogue is with Heistbaron Togwaggle + Togwaggle's Scheme and Wondrous Wand / Zarog's Crown from the treasures. It doesn't feel like the devs realize just how powerful these 2 treasures can be if you can consistently get them... Marin didn't see play because of the RNG and bad tempo, but this is faster and the fact that you get to CHOOSE the treasure and avoid the 2 bad ones is incredibly important. This card is a million times better than Marin, and i'm worried it'll ruin the meta. Can someone alleviate my concerns?
i will put this in thief rogue. i want to buff my spectrall cutllass and random legendaries are better than garbage weapons. and 1 thing i want to see is rogoe playing against mage and getting tollin goblet. into 1 mana pyroblasts.
I think the main problem of that deck is staying alive. You have two choices, play it early for the tempo and lose late game value, or play it super late and go forever from it.
But I just don’t see how rogue lives that long right now. It will be much better off played for the early tempo, but then that gets taken out by any control deck just like normal.
I’m seeing it as a strong midrange deck, but not tier 1, and rogue just doesn’t have the ability to survive late at all to make a control deck.
IMO this card won't ruin the meta. But bomb warrior and the card that draw minions and make them 1/1 might though. THis rogue that uses togwaggle will be like other rogues essentially imo. A huge rock paper scissors thing. Gets rekt by aggro but beats control
Rogue still has limited healing options and no way to stabilize the board if behind. Playing low tempo plays (Lackey Generators and Togwaggle both seem low tempo from what we've seen so far) in the early-mid game as a Rogue is a great way to get yourself killed. It doesnt matter how many late-game tempo resources you generate if you die before you can use them.
"It doesn't feel like the devs realize just how powerful these 2 treasures can be if you can consistently get them." Considering they've played in the environment where that is possible and we have not, I'd be willing to guess they have a better idea than you or I just how powerful that is.
"This card is a million times better than Marin" considering Marin saw pretty much 0 competitive play it could be a billion times better than Marin and still not influence the meta at all.
The main issue I see with Togwaggle is that it relies on Lackeys being both good enough and easily obtainable enough to make a deck based around them, and therefore reliably have one on board when you play Tog.
Even then, this is one card in a deck that might have to sacrifice usual Rogue power for this Lackey synergy. One offs usually aren't that much of a threat unless they win the game on their own. For example, Shudderwock was a problem because even though it involved creating a very weird ultra-synergistic deck to make it work, if you played it, you won. This seems more like a general good value card, along the lines of Ysera or Tirion Fordring - amazing in the right situation, but not a free win if played. Yes, the treasures are powerful, but you're still relying on drawing exactly the right cards with the wand, or discovering exactly the right legendary with the crown, and even then, is it really enough to kill your opponent if you're not already winning?
Honestly, the answer to all threads like this is: "We haven't seen the rest of the cards, or the new meta, so we don't know yet". That is the case with every new expansion, even more so a yearly rotation, and even more so with this one, which is leaving us with the smallest cardpool since the introduction of Standard. We just have to trust the dev team and wait.
Remember that you need to control lackey to get the treasure. This means you often won't play this because lack of lackeys. And shuffling cheap (at least from what was revealed) generation cards will slow you down. With Togwaggle and Lackey generating cards both shuffled into your deck, this will balance each other nicely.
Ofc this legendary will be the win condition for that Value Rogue, so it needs to put pressure, like any other board/value oriented deck.
Ok, so you shuffle a lot of copies of this card into your deck, draw one copy and play a 6 mana 5/5, is that your idea? Because I can't see where you are getting so many lackeys! Do you have a factor or something? Have you seen a card that generate so many lackeys as you want? Think about it, first you need to draw EVIL Miscreant and use it to get two lackeys, then you need two Schemes in you hand getting buffed, then you need to draw Heistbaron, use it and use the Scheme. But wait, you have just one more lackey in your hand, or maybe none because you used it... So now you need another EVIL Miscreant to create more lackeys and use the Scheme on it, but wait, you are already dead, so you can't do this...
Guys you need to think about the gameflow, think about all the setup you need for this to be something good, and it is A LOT. And even if you do it, it does not guarantee you the victory.
I think Hesitbaron is going to be a very good card, just because choosing a treasure is OP, but you can't rely on this card to win.
This card has potential but I like other posters here I do not believe it will live up to the hype everyone seems to think it will have. Will it be fun to play? Yes probably, will it win some games? Yeah probably. But it's too early in the reveal schedule to see what the new meta were going to get is. At face value this card has alot of potential but it requires so many other factors to win that I dont know if it will be consistent enough to break the game.
i smell boardclears become mandatory or you are doomed. So each class without the ability of 4+ full clears in the deck goes either for T5-6 kill or gets invalid....
Just remember that Rogue has very few and bad board clears and terrible healing, so it's not easy for them to play the value game as aggro usually bashes those decks. However, value rouge can be so fun to play, so I hope they get some support.
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The death knights are rotating out, and it doesn't seem like any other class is getting as much consistent late game value and tempo as Rogue is with Heistbaron Togwaggle + Togwaggle's Scheme and Wondrous Wand / Zarog's Crown from the treasures. It doesn't feel like the devs realize just how powerful these 2 treasures can be if you can consistently get them... Marin didn't see play because of the RNG and bad tempo, but this is faster and the fact that you get to CHOOSE the treasure and avoid the 2 bad ones is incredibly important. This card is a million times better than Marin, and i'm worried it'll ruin the meta. Can someone alleviate my concerns?
Nope we are all screwed. :)
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Kripp says it's not good.
i will put this in thief rogue. i want to buff my spectrall cutllass and random legendaries are better than garbage weapons. and 1 thing i want to see is rogoe playing against mage and getting tollin goblet. into 1 mana pyroblasts.
Crown can be garbadge too. Many legendaries have bad stats and their strenght is their battlecry.
wand is very scary tho. But remember rouges healing is absolute trash. Agression will always do well
If you have a deck idea might as well go full ham on it.
If value rogue becomes a thing, this will be an incredible card. Value rogue has always been garbage, but maybe this is it's time to shine
I think the main problem of that deck is staying alive. You have two choices, play it early for the tempo and lose late game value, or play it super late and go forever from it.
But I just don’t see how rogue lives that long right now. It will be much better off played for the early tempo, but then that gets taken out by any control deck just like normal.
I’m seeing it as a strong midrange deck, but not tier 1, and rogue just doesn’t have the ability to survive late at all to make a control deck.
IMO this card won't ruin the meta. But bomb warrior and the card that draw minions and make them 1/1 might though. THis rogue that uses togwaggle will be like other rogues essentially imo. A huge rock paper scissors thing. Gets rekt by aggro but beats control
It is a slow one-of card that does not even grant OTK potential, despite having a condition: how can it be a problem?
It may be strong, but not a problem.
Rogue still has limited healing options and no way to stabilize the board if behind. Playing low tempo plays (Lackey Generators and Togwaggle both seem low tempo from what we've seen so far) in the early-mid game as a Rogue is a great way to get yourself killed. It doesnt matter how many late-game tempo resources you generate if you die before you can use them.
"It doesn't feel like the devs realize just how powerful these 2 treasures can be if you can consistently get them." Considering they've played in the environment where that is possible and we have not, I'd be willing to guess they have a better idea than you or I just how powerful that is.
"This card is a million times better than Marin" considering Marin saw pretty much 0 competitive play it could be a billion times better than Marin and still not influence the meta at all.
The main issue I see with Togwaggle is that it relies on Lackeys being both good enough and easily obtainable enough to make a deck based around them, and therefore reliably have one on board when you play Tog.
Even then, this is one card in a deck that might have to sacrifice usual Rogue power for this Lackey synergy. One offs usually aren't that much of a threat unless they win the game on their own. For example, Shudderwock was a problem because even though it involved creating a very weird ultra-synergistic deck to make it work, if you played it, you won. This seems more like a general good value card, along the lines of Ysera or Tirion Fordring - amazing in the right situation, but not a free win if played. Yes, the treasures are powerful, but you're still relying on drawing exactly the right cards with the wand, or discovering exactly the right legendary with the crown, and even then, is it really enough to kill your opponent if you're not already winning?
Honestly, the answer to all threads like this is: "We haven't seen the rest of the cards, or the new meta, so we don't know yet". That is the case with every new expansion, even more so a yearly rotation, and even more so with this one, which is leaving us with the smallest cardpool since the introduction of Standard. We just have to trust the dev team and wait.
Remember that you need to control lackey to get the treasure. This means you often won't play this because lack of lackeys. And shuffling cheap (at least from what was revealed) generation cards will slow you down. With Togwaggle and Lackey generating cards both shuffled into your deck, this will balance each other nicely.
Ofc this legendary will be the win condition for that Value Rogue, so it needs to put pressure, like any other board/value oriented deck.
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We need to see the rest of the cards and understand how efficient aggro will be.
Ok, so you shuffle a lot of copies of this card into your deck, draw one copy and play a 6 mana 5/5, is that your idea? Because I can't see where you are getting so many lackeys! Do you have a factor or something? Have you seen a card that generate so many lackeys as you want? Think about it, first you need to draw EVIL Miscreant and use it to get two lackeys, then you need two Schemes in you hand getting buffed, then you need to draw Heistbaron, use it and use the Scheme. But wait, you have just one more lackey in your hand, or maybe none because you used it... So now you need another EVIL Miscreant to create more lackeys and use the Scheme on it, but wait, you are already dead, so you can't do this...
Guys you need to think about the gameflow, think about all the setup you need for this to be something good, and it is A LOT. And even if you do it, it does not guarantee you the victory.
I think Hesitbaron is going to be a very good card, just because choosing a treasure is OP, but you can't rely on this card to win.
This card has potential but I like other posters here I do not believe it will live up to the hype everyone seems to think it will have. Will it be fun to play? Yes probably, will it win some games? Yeah probably. But it's too early in the reveal schedule to see what the new meta were going to get is. At face value this card has alot of potential but it requires so many other factors to win that I dont know if it will be consistent enough to break the game.
I am far more worried about Myra+Nomi breaking the game with 6/6s on turn 7.
i smell boardclears become mandatory or you are doomed. So each class without the ability of 4+ full clears in the deck goes either for T5-6 kill or gets invalid....
I really don’t get all the fuss over this card tbh
Just remember that Rogue has very few and bad board clears and terrible healing, so it's not easy for them to play the value game as aggro usually bashes those decks. However, value rouge can be so fun to play, so I hope they get some support.