I did not like either of these cards from the very beginning and sure enough, as soon as people figured them out, they started producing mostly aggro decks that are all basically the same and made the game incredibly boring to play and a coin toss on ladder, if you played one of them yourselves.
That's not their biggest crime though. Ever since the meta became flooded with Baku and Genn decks and hearthstone hit us with nerfs to other cards, they had to go out of their way to increase the nerfed mana cost by 1 extra mana, just so the card would not continue to see play in a Genn or Baku deck. So essentially, because of these two moronic cards, they nerf cards extra hard for no other reason than so it would not show up in their deck. Good job Blizzard, you played yourself. You printed two absoultely terrible cards that are now limiting the other cards you can print and making your nerfs even worse
Aside from Even Shaman, what other Even aggro decks are there right now in the meta?
He is not talking really about current meta, he is talking about cards specifically being changed around not falling into even/odd category just because of Genn and Baku... And I do agree that is a very strange way to approach card changes...
Even paladin has helped me walk up the ladder last season when I only had 3-4 days of play sessions in, a few hours each. It's extremely strong, but not odd pally strong, which is (as my buddy best put it) "30 cards" because that's all you need for that deck to do well. Without a nerf to Baku the Mooneater, odd pally can continue to find replacements to whatever cards they lose in rotation or get nerfed, because the hero power itself is broken.
Genn Greymane decks usually only need a card or two nerfed to seriously damage them. Witchwood even pally was better than odd pally when it still had Call to Arms. Losing that took it out of "utterly broken" territory. Even shaman will lose Flametongue Totem, but they might still be ok.
These cards will likely be nerfed in April if at all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
So you complain about Blizzard failing with the design of Baku and Genn?
Honestly, Blizzard is failing all the time.
1. The Knights of the frozen throne and KnC Expansions that led to Warlock being massively op and a massive power creep.
2. They allowed newer beasts to work with Rexxar resulting in a ridiculously absurd hero power.
3. Introducing Baku and Genn with witchwood blessing us with odd paladin as the top deck since then in spite of nerfing the deck. Even and odd decks now run rampant in wild. Andtthey terribly limit the balancing of cards like equality.
4. Giving hunter even more strong cards with Rastakhan's Rumble plus the December nerfs that destroyed druid and lead to hunter stone.
5. Buffing kingsbane with Rastakhan's raiding party only quickly to realize the deck might be to strong resulting in a new and quick nerf.
6. Now even more mostly stupid and lazy nerfs nobody called for.
That's only the most obvious fails from my perspective. It appears as if the guys at Team 5 are just incompetent. So we can all embrace ourselfs for even more and more severe missteps by the balancing geniuses.
So have you watched Kibler, too? Know what else is moronic? Stupid sheeps like you who don't know how to judge for themselves. That was YOUR thought right after these nerfs? That was YOUR thought before the nerfs when you were probably salty because of the swarm of hunters?
All the people in the salt thread and reddit complained about hunters and otk decks, about hoooow unfair it is to lose in one turn when you're dominating the game. I bet Kibler would've pointed the problem at otk decks and hunters if Baku and Genn got nerfed instead of the cards from yesterday.
I usually don't go out of my way for morons like you but it's absurd to attack the two cards that are actually good and helpful for most players. Each one gives you 9 different archetypes (not decks). Tell me one neutral legendary that gives you so many options to play, I dare you.
OP, You're not adding any more legitimacy to your argument by insulting the other side and claiming things you disagree with to be "moronic". On the contrary.
I actually like the odd/even mechanic, it made several cards that were so bad they were never played or nerfed into oblivion playable again: Raid Leader, Frostwolf Warlord, Stormwind Champion, Ironbeak Owl, Windfury Harpy, Corridor Creeper. If anything, it increases design space by giving us more cards that are "conditionally good" in the right context because odd/even mechanic adds more contexts that we didn't have before, similar how Mecha'thun made Cataclysm good, which previously saw no play at all.
Card nerfs are natural part of the game, some you may disagree with (and I've disagreed with a fair share of nerfs myself in the past), but it's important to understand that the world isn't stale. Things that seemed balanced/fair 2 years ago, may not be balanced today (either due to new support from other cards or nerfs to cards that opposed them). With more contexts (archetypes) appearing to use your cards in, it's bound to happen. You can't introduce new cards without affecting power of existing ones.
I really liked the idea of odd and even decks but have been terrified for a long time of what may eventually happen...
And now it's happening. Everything about Hearthstone going forward must be designed around these guys for fear of making a particular odd or even deck too strong. Flametongue and Cold Blood in particular will gut the two strongest decks in Wild. Coincidence? Not at all. Necessary? Maybe.... but only because of the fact that odd and even decks exist.
If this continues, slowly the whole game will become a mockery. Everything balanced around two polarizing legendaries that will exist forever in Wild. This does not seem like an ideal way to go about the design of the game.
I find Mecha'thun, Uther of the Ebon Blade far more cancerous. Because these cards scream for board avoidance, which is or should be the foremost focus of the game. And equally to Genn and Baku, they will lead to increasingly efficient Wild decks.
As much as Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater are boring (tbh I find them far more interesting than any Prince Keleseth deck), they may be the only way to produce Tempo decks that are consistent enough to keep the Wild meta in check from the Exodia mentioned above, which are the real cancer.
Sheer Aggro is not enough anymore, since a Standard Miracle Druid can beat a Wild Pirate Warrior.
With Reno Jackson decks being in turn the counter to Tempo.
As I wrote elsewhere in similar threads, all they have to do is to stop printing obviously OP cards that give BS synergy with Hero Powers: this will grant enough room to build different decks, without being forced into Genn/Baku.
PS: Wild Kingsbane Rogue is already the proof that Baku is not as invincible as it seems, even in its own meta role.
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Baku and Genn are two of the best things that have happened to Hearthstone. The fact that your card choices are limited to a specific kind of card means that thinking is the way forward.
Let's see what happens after Rotation and the new set is released shall we?
Absolutely agree, as a wild player, they really screwed a lot of people. The effects are way too powerful and should be nerfed. That's why justicat was a legendary and wasn't very reliable. They both need a big nerf
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Baku and Genn are two of the best things that have happened to Hearthstone. The fact that your card choices are limited to a specific kind of card means that thinking is the way forward.
Let's see what happens after Rotation and the new set is released shall we?
Oh weren't you the evenlock and even shaman player? I remember you telling that they were good so no wonder you don't see a problem with genn and baku
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Baku and Genn are two of the best things that have happened to Hearthstone. The fact that your card choices are limited to a specific kind of card means that thinking is the way forward.
Let's see what happens after Rotation and the new set is released shall we?
Oh weren't you the evenlock and even shaman player? I remember you telling that they were good so no wonder you don't see a problem with genn and baku
Nope. I have played EvenLock but never touched Even Shaman. Nice try though. Maybe next time? 😂
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Baku and Genn are two of the best things that have happened to Hearthstone. The fact that your card choices are limited to a specific kind of card means that thinking is the way forward.
Let's see what happens after Rotation and the new set is released shall we?
Oh weren't you the evenlock and even shaman player? I remember you telling that they were good so no wonder you don't see a problem with genn and baku
So you are the Renolock player. I should assume anything you write about Reno is BS?
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Baku and Genn are two of the best things that have happened to Hearthstone. The fact that your card choices are limited to a specific kind of card means that thinking is the way forward.
Let's see what happens after Rotation and the new set is released shall we?
Oh weren't you the evenlock and even shaman player? I remember you telling that they were good so no wonder you don't see a problem with genn and baku
So you are the Renolock player. I should assume anything you write about Reno is BS?
C'mon, let's argue with points...
Ehhh, yea Reno is broken admit that and kazakus is even worse, btw I have like 10 different wild tier 1-4 decks (no big priest :) ) I just see that guy defend genn quite often, or idk, maybe we are just posting at the same time xD
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
So have you watched Kibler, too? Know what else is moronic? Stupid sheeps like you who don't know how to judge for themselves. That was YOUR thought right after these nerfs? That was YOUR thought before the nerfs when you were probably salty because of the swarm of hunters?
All the people in the salt thread and reddit complained about hunters and otk decks, about hoooow unfair it is to lose in one turn when you're dominating the game. I bet Kibler would've pointed the problem at otk decks and hunters if Baku and Genn got nerfed instead of the cards from yesterday.
I usually don't go out of my way for morons like you but it's absurd to attack the two cards that are actually good and helpful for most players. Each one gives you 9 different archetypes (not decks). Tell me one neutral legendary that gives you so many options to play, I dare you.
Genn and Baku are broken and will haunt standard for another year, and wild until another power creep occurs. Decks cannot consistently compete with these upgraded hero powers unless Blizzard power creep the game even more and release more broken cards just so other archetypes can compete with these two cards.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I did not like either of these cards from the very beginning and sure enough, as soon as people figured them out, they started producing mostly aggro decks that are all basically the same and made the game incredibly boring to play and a coin toss on ladder, if you played one of them yourselves.
That's not their biggest crime though. Ever since the meta became flooded with Baku and Genn decks and hearthstone hit us with nerfs to other cards, they had to go out of their way to increase the nerfed mana cost by 1 extra mana, just so the card would not continue to see play in a Genn or Baku deck. So essentially, because of these two moronic cards, they nerf cards extra hard for no other reason than so it would not show up in their deck. Good job Blizzard, you played yourself. You printed two absoultely terrible cards that are now limiting the other cards you can print and making your nerfs even worse
Aside from Even Shaman, what other Even aggro decks are there right now in the meta?
Evenlock? Also, Even mage is quite good in Wild.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
He is not talking really about current meta, he is talking about cards specifically being changed around not falling into even/odd category just because of Genn and Baku... And I do agree that is a very strange way to approach card changes...
Even paladin has helped me walk up the ladder last season when I only had 3-4 days of play sessions in, a few hours each. It's extremely strong, but not odd pally strong, which is (as my buddy best put it) "30 cards" because that's all you need for that deck to do well. Without a nerf to Baku the Mooneater, odd pally can continue to find replacements to whatever cards they lose in rotation or get nerfed, because the hero power itself is broken.
Genn Greymane decks usually only need a card or two nerfed to seriously damage them. Witchwood even pally was better than odd pally when it still had Call to Arms. Losing that took it out of "utterly broken" territory. Even shaman will lose Flametongue Totem, but they might still be ok.
These cards will likely be nerfed in April if at all.
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
So you complain about Blizzard failing with the design of Baku and Genn?
Honestly, Blizzard is failing all the time.
1. The Knights of the frozen throne and KnC Expansions that led to Warlock being massively op and a massive power creep.
2. They allowed newer beasts to work with Rexxar resulting in a ridiculously absurd hero power.
3. Introducing Baku and Genn with witchwood blessing us with odd paladin as the top deck since then in spite of nerfing the deck. Even and odd decks now run rampant in wild. Andtthey terribly limit the balancing of cards like equality.
4. Giving hunter even more strong cards with Rastakhan's Rumble plus the December nerfs that destroyed druid and lead to hunter stone.
5. Buffing kingsbane with Rastakhan's raiding party only quickly to realize the deck might be to strong resulting in a new and quick nerf.
6. Now even more mostly stupid and lazy nerfs nobody called for.
That's only the most obvious fails from my perspective. It appears as if the guys at Team 5 are just incompetent. So we can all embrace ourselfs for even more and more severe missteps by the balancing geniuses.
So have you watched Kibler, too? Know what else is moronic? Stupid sheeps like you who don't know how to judge for themselves. That was YOUR thought right after these nerfs? That was YOUR thought before the nerfs when you were probably salty because of the swarm of hunters?
All the people in the salt thread and reddit complained about hunters and otk decks, about hoooow unfair it is to lose in one turn when you're dominating the game. I bet Kibler would've pointed the problem at otk decks and hunters if Baku and Genn got nerfed instead of the cards from yesterday.
I usually don't go out of my way for morons like you but it's absurd to attack the two cards that are actually good and helpful for most players. Each one gives you 9 different archetypes (not decks). Tell me one neutral legendary that gives you so many options to play, I dare you.
Justicar Trueheart
You're welcome...
OP, You're not adding any more legitimacy to your argument by insulting the other side and claiming things you disagree with to be "moronic". On the contrary.
I actually like the odd/even mechanic, it made several cards that were so bad they were never played or nerfed into oblivion playable again: Raid Leader, Frostwolf Warlord, Stormwind Champion, Ironbeak Owl, Windfury Harpy, Corridor Creeper. If anything, it increases design space by giving us more cards that are "conditionally good" in the right context because odd/even mechanic adds more contexts that we didn't have before, similar how Mecha'thun made Cataclysm good, which previously saw no play at all.
Card nerfs are natural part of the game, some you may disagree with (and I've disagreed with a fair share of nerfs myself in the past), but it's important to understand that the world isn't stale. Things that seemed balanced/fair 2 years ago, may not be balanced today (either due to new support from other cards or nerfs to cards that opposed them). With more contexts (archetypes) appearing to use your cards in, it's bound to happen. You can't introduce new cards without affecting power of existing ones.
I really liked the idea of odd and even decks but have been terrified for a long time of what may eventually happen...
And now it's happening. Everything about Hearthstone going forward must be designed around these guys for fear of making a particular odd or even deck too strong. Flametongue and Cold Blood in particular will gut the two strongest decks in Wild. Coincidence? Not at all. Necessary? Maybe.... but only because of the fact that odd and even decks exist.
If this continues, slowly the whole game will become a mockery. Everything balanced around two polarizing legendaries that will exist forever in Wild. This does not seem like an ideal way to go about the design of the game.
I have no salt, I'm just worried for Hearthstone.
I find Mecha'thun, Uther of the Ebon Blade far more cancerous. Because these cards scream for board avoidance, which is or should be the foremost focus of the game. And equally to Genn and Baku, they will lead to increasingly efficient Wild decks.
As much as Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater are boring (tbh I find them far more interesting than any Prince Keleseth deck), they may be the only way to produce Tempo decks that are consistent enough to keep the Wild meta in check from the Exodia mentioned above, which are the real cancer.
Sheer Aggro is not enough anymore, since a Standard Miracle Druid can beat a Wild Pirate Warrior.
With Reno Jackson decks being in turn the counter to Tempo.
As I wrote elsewhere in similar threads, all they have to do is to stop printing obviously OP cards that give BS synergy with Hero Powers: this will grant enough room to build different decks, without being forced into Genn/Baku.
PS: Wild Kingsbane Rogue is already the proof that Baku is not as invincible as it seems, even in its own meta role.
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Baku and Genn are two of the best things that have happened to Hearthstone. The fact that your card choices are limited to a specific kind of card means that thinking is the way forward.
Let's see what happens after Rotation and the new set is released shall we?
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
Absolutely agree, as a wild player, they really screwed a lot of people. The effects are way too powerful and should be nerfed. That's why justicat was a legendary and wasn't very reliable. They both need a big nerf
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
Oh weren't you the evenlock and even shaman player? I remember you telling that they were good so no wonder you don't see a problem with genn and baku
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
I like upgraded heropower and Baku card design.
I think, if Auchenai effect costs 1/3/5 - odd priest could be competitive.
Nope. I have played EvenLock but never touched Even Shaman. Nice try though. Maybe next time? 😂
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
I love the posts by game design PhD's like OP. They are so funny,
So you are the Renolock player. I should assume anything you write about Reno is BS?
C'mon, let's argue with points...
Ehhh, yea Reno is broken admit that and kazakus is even worse, btw I have like 10 different wild tier 1-4 decks (no big priest :) ) I just see that guy defend genn quite often, or idk, maybe we are just posting at the same time xD
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
Whizbang the Wonderful :)
Genn and Baku are broken and will haunt standard for another year, and wild until another power creep occurs. Decks cannot consistently compete with these upgraded hero powers unless Blizzard power creep the game even more and release more broken cards just so other archetypes can compete with these two cards.