Yesterday I tried to start a discussion about Mechathun Druid;s ability to finish the game super fast while their opponents actions dont really affect the outcome: your dead to the OTK.
Yes, there is Geist and Mojomaster. However, freeing up 2 card slots to defend against it isnt always viable for alot of decks atm.
So basically HS is like a rock paper scissors game.
But why cant we just get more card slots to tech our decks vs ALL matchups? Why should I lose instantly just cuz of the matchup?
When Druid draws Auctioneer and plays it on turn 6, they go thru almost their whole deck, getting ready for the finisher on turn 10.
Alot of games lately, have been crazy fun battling out win conditions and being thoughtful about coming turns, setting up board states and clears etc...these are some of the wonnderful things about HS.
But the feelings generated around playing a game where nothing you do matters , while Druid draws their WHOLE DECK in 2 turns, while gaing around 40 armor and playing minions to defend is just not fair IMO. Thats just 1 example of how some games play out right now in HS.
I just feel that if the game is going to include this, then there should be more ways FOR EVERY CLASS to interact with there opponents attempts.
I would like to see a "resource pool' of cards available, outside of the starting 30, that each class can use to tech at the start of the game vs the matchup they are facing.
I believ this will make the games more intersting and actually give players the feeling that their decisions actually matteredin the outcome of the game.
Imagine being able to add 3 cards that will help with your match vs DR Hunter, or Odd Warrior etc...
I come from a Tournament level Chess background, where losing is the fault of the player alone, and with the right tactics and positional play, anyone can win a game vs anyone else.
I would like to see more skill and less luck in the game.
Is mechatun druid even that strong.. I mean in it's current form it uses a ramp card that ramps you too.. it's way less oppressive than druid ever was in the last year.
You really shouldn't be comparing Hearthstone or Card-games in general to Chess. There are no random factors and you can see exactly what your opponent is playing with.
That aside though, what you are referring to is essential side-boarding that is common in almost every single competitive physical card game. While it would be a welcome addition, it is more prevalent in tournament mode (i.e. something akin to best of 3) which Blizzard promised to deliver but never did. It's not really suited for ladder and while you may say that it increases skill level I would argue otherwise. Right now you have a limit of 30 cards and you have to include your tech cards in there which means you actually have to think how many are necessary and what you are targeting with the tech options. Having a random pool of cards that doesn't force you to make any sacrifices when deckbuilding will just produce more streamlined builds.
Hearthstone's main issue are infinite resources. Resource management just went down the tube with discover upon discover upon discover effects. It's hard to advocate for player-skill when the game promotes the random element beyond healthy levels.
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Hearthstone always has been, is, and always will be mostly RNG. Even if you removed all the "RNG-cards", the random card draw remains and greatly affects the outcome of a game.
If you don't like RNG-based games, you need to play something else I'm afraid.
Eternal implemented the Sidebar ('resource pool' as you call it) one expansion ago. It's called 'Market' and when you play a minion with market you may swap a card in your hand with one of 5 in your market (determined at deckbuilding time). It is more balanced than a straight-up sidebar because you are forced into a tempo trade to leverage it (the minion has mediocre stats and no other abilities). While it is a neat feature, it has done little to address polarization; The representation of the decks in the meta and the contents of the 'market' eventually stabilized. The analogy is when everyone was running Dr. Boom, everyone was also running Big Game Hunter (he cost 3 then).
Mechathun druid only works if people are not countering it. Geist and nerubian unraveler make the matchup autowin.
In hearthstone in a way deck building is a part of the match, using the appropriate deck to counter a certain meta is a skill factor that gets often neglected. If you feel the deck is oppressing you, tech in one of its counters. You will lower your winrate in other matchups this way, balancing these factors takes quite some skill .
The more cards you add to a deck, the more inconsistent it gets. In most mtg formats, you are free to have a deck with hundreds of cards, but it is nearly always incorrect to start with anything more than the minimum of 60.
Eternal implemented the Sidebar ('resource pool' as you call it) one expansion ago. It's called 'Market' and when you play a minion with market you may swap a card in your hand with one of 5 in your market (determined at deckbuilding time). It is more balanced than a straight-up sidebar because you are forced into a tempo trade to leverage it (the minion has mediocre stats and no other abilities). While it is a neat feature, it has done little to address polarization; The representation of the decks in the meta and the contents of the 'market' eventually stabilized. The analogy is when everyone was running Dr. Boom, everyone was also running Big Game Hunter (he cost 3 then).
very intereting! ill look into that. thx for your response.
Mechathun druid only works if people are not countering it. Geist and nerubian unraveler make the matchup autowin.
In hearthstone in a way deck building is a part of the match, using the appropriate deck to counter a certain meta is a skill factor that gets often neglected. If you feel the deck is oppressing you, tech in one of its counters. You will lower your winrate in other matchups this way, balancing these factors takes quite some skill .
Mechathun druid only works if people are not countering it. Geist and nerubian unraveler make the matchup autowin.
In hearthstone in a way deck building is a part of the match, using the appropriate deck to counter a certain meta is a skill factor that gets often neglected. If you feel the deck is oppressing you, tech in one of its counters. You will lower your winrate in other matchups this way, balancing these factors takes quite some skill .
I totally agree. I do tech my decks if I run into alot of a certain opponent. I was more trying to make a point of some kind of extra pool to use as a resource depending on the coming matchup.... I appreciate your reply. thx.
Hearthstone always has been, is, and always will be mostly RNG. Even if you removed all the "RNG-cards", the random card draw remains and greatly affects the outcome of a game.
If you don't like RNG-based games, you need to play something else I'm afraid.
Eternal implemented the Sidebar ('resource pool' as you call it) one expansion ago. It's called 'Market' and when you play a minion with market you may swap a card in your hand with one of 5 in your market (determined at deckbuilding time). It is more balanced than a straight-up sidebar because you are forced into a tempo trade to leverage it (the minion has mediocre stats and no other abilities). While it is a neat feature, it has done little to address polarization; The representation of the decks in the meta and the contents of the 'market' eventually stabilized. The analogy is when everyone was running Dr. Boom, everyone was also running Big Game Hunter (he cost 3 then).
That's because the entire point of the sidebar was meant for best out of X games.
The idea was that in tournaments you would bring only one deck against multiple opponents. This means that, unlike ladder where you can play a few games, check the stats, then tweak and tech your deck, if your deck is vulnerable against your opponent you are 100% stuck...except for the sideboard. Thus you play one game strait, then after seeing what your opponent has, can sideboard to tech against them while they tech against you.
All of that is useless when you can completely change out your deck before every game and only face your opponent once. If there were times where you had to, say, play control warlock vs mechathun druid and have to fight against them 2 more times without being able to switch to a different deck, THEN sideboarding would be a good idea.
(which I'm not sure would be better than the multi-class style systems we have now. If anything I feel we need to lean more into the concept of bringing more decks in tournaments. I personally like those "one of each class, then a choose/ban phase" concepts. Why have a sideboard of 10 cards when you can swap entire decks to suit what your opponent may bring.
Note, HS' Discover mechanic sounds like our version of the Market, though with some randomization to avoid the stabilization issue. For example, priests can use Shadow Visions to either draw more removal against aggro or pull combo pieces if they feel safer.
Is mechatun druid even that strong.. I mean in it's current form it uses a ramp card that ramps you too.. it's way less oppressive than druid ever was in the last year.
no its not bro. if they draw auctioneer early, they draw their whole deck cuz its filled with 0,and 1 mana spells, then they paly 2 spells that give 2 mana each and they keep going with it. I think its worse now. IMO.
I think Mojomaster isn't so bad to put in your deck. It counters most other OTK decks and if you get ahead on board, you can use it to make it more difficult for the opponent to clear, much like Loatheb
As for sideboards and extra cards, it's never going to happen. HS design philosophy is to keep it simple and easily accessible. In other words, your suggestion is "too confusing for new players"
You have to play against Mecha'thun Druid with a different mind set. They cannot kill you outside of combo so you are always the aggressor in this matchup no matter what deck you are playing. Remember the deck doesn't have good AoE (Swipe is not capable of clearing much) so just make the most threatening board you can as quickly as possible, use any weapons you have to control their face (maybe keep a charge if you need it to deal with a Barkskin Auctioneer but otherwise just unload damage into them as quickly as possible), and try to aggro them out of the game asap. If you're using a deck with Mojomaster Zihi just go nuts trying to draw her and keep track of what 0 mana cards have been played so you know exactly when they can combo. Drop Zihi the turn before and they just have to sit there for 4 turns taking fatigue damage before they can combo. If you can't kill them in that time you deserve to lose :)
I thinkk you missed the point of my thread. I wasnt asking about tactics vs Mechathun. I was talking about changes to the game to make matches that are auto losses vs OTK, like Control decks, more enjoyable and possible to win.
Obviously you are correct. But If im a slow deck, rock paper scissors says I lose to OTK. I was contemplating having a card pool outside of the starting 30 I can use as a resource for the upcoming match.
Too many games feel like it didnt matter what I did. I think thats a problem with the game.
thx for you input.
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Yesterday I tried to start a discussion about Mechathun Druid;s ability to finish the game super fast while their opponents actions dont really affect the outcome: your dead to the OTK.
Yes, there is Geist and Mojomaster. However, freeing up 2 card slots to defend against it isnt always viable for alot of decks atm.
So basically HS is like a rock paper scissors game.
But why cant we just get more card slots to tech our decks vs ALL matchups? Why should I lose instantly just cuz of the matchup?
When Druid draws Auctioneer and plays it on turn 6, they go thru almost their whole deck, getting ready for the finisher on turn 10.
Alot of games lately, have been crazy fun battling out win conditions and being thoughtful about coming turns, setting up board states and clears etc...these are some of the wonnderful things about HS.
But the feelings generated around playing a game where nothing you do matters , while Druid draws their WHOLE DECK in 2 turns, while gaing around 40 armor and playing minions to defend is just not fair IMO. Thats just 1 example of how some games play out right now in HS.
I just feel that if the game is going to include this, then there should be more ways FOR EVERY CLASS to interact with there opponents attempts.
I would like to see a "resource pool' of cards available, outside of the starting 30, that each class can use to tech at the start of the game vs the matchup they are facing.
I believ this will make the games more intersting and actually give players the feeling that their decisions actually matteredin the outcome of the game.
Imagine being able to add 3 cards that will help with your match vs DR Hunter, or Odd Warrior etc...
I come from a Tournament level Chess background, where losing is the fault of the player alone, and with the right tactics and positional play, anyone can win a game vs anyone else.
I would like to see more skill and less luck in the game.
Thank you foryour time.
I encourage thoughts and discussion.
Is mechatun druid even that strong.. I mean in it's current form it uses a ramp card that ramps you too.. it's way less oppressive than druid ever was in the last year.
Hit him in the face with shadowmourne.
You really shouldn't be comparing Hearthstone or Card-games in general to Chess. There are no random factors and you can see exactly what your opponent is playing with.
That aside though, what you are referring to is essential side-boarding that is common in almost every single competitive physical card game. While it would be a welcome addition, it is more prevalent in tournament mode (i.e. something akin to best of 3) which Blizzard promised to deliver but never did. It's not really suited for ladder and while you may say that it increases skill level I would argue otherwise. Right now you have a limit of 30 cards and you have to include your tech cards in there which means you actually have to think how many are necessary and what you are targeting with the tech options. Having a random pool of cards that doesn't force you to make any sacrifices when deckbuilding will just produce more streamlined builds.
Hearthstone's main issue are infinite resources. Resource management just went down the tube with discover upon discover upon discover effects. It's hard to advocate for player-skill when the game promotes the random element beyond healthy levels.
Hearthstone always has been, is, and always will be mostly RNG. Even if you removed all the "RNG-cards", the random card draw remains and greatly affects the outcome of a game.
If you don't like RNG-based games, you need to play something else I'm afraid.
Arena Leaderboard EU - September 2018: #47 (@7.77 Wins Average)
Eternal implemented the Sidebar ('resource pool' as you call it) one expansion ago. It's called 'Market' and when you play a minion with market you may swap a card in your hand with one of 5 in your market (determined at deckbuilding time). It is more balanced than a straight-up sidebar because you are forced into a tempo trade to leverage it (the minion has mediocre stats and no other abilities). While it is a neat feature, it has done little to address polarization; The representation of the decks in the meta and the contents of the 'market' eventually stabilized. The analogy is when everyone was running Dr. Boom, everyone was also running Big Game Hunter (he cost 3 then).
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Mechathun druid only works if people are not countering it. Geist and nerubian unraveler make the matchup autowin.
In hearthstone in a way deck building is a part of the match, using the appropriate deck to counter a certain meta is a skill factor that gets often neglected. If you feel the deck is oppressing you, tech in one of its counters. You will lower your winrate in other matchups this way, balancing these factors takes quite some skill .
The more cards you add to a deck, the more inconsistent it gets. In most mtg formats, you are free to have a deck with hundreds of cards, but it is nearly always incorrect to start with anything more than the minimum of 60.
very intereting! ill look into that. thx for your response.
I totally agree. I do tech my decks if I run into alot of a certain opponent. I was more trying to make a point of some kind of extra pool to use as a resource depending on the coming matchup.... I appreciate your reply. thx.
So true. Thx alot.
That's because the entire point of the sidebar was meant for best out of X games.
The idea was that in tournaments you would bring only one deck against multiple opponents. This means that, unlike ladder where you can play a few games, check the stats, then tweak and tech your deck, if your deck is vulnerable against your opponent you are 100% stuck...except for the sideboard. Thus you play one game strait, then after seeing what your opponent has, can sideboard to tech against them while they tech against you.
All of that is useless when you can completely change out your deck before every game and only face your opponent once. If there were times where you had to, say, play control warlock vs mechathun druid and have to fight against them 2 more times without being able to switch to a different deck, THEN sideboarding would be a good idea.
(which I'm not sure would be better than the multi-class style systems we have now. If anything I feel we need to lean more into the concept of bringing more decks in tournaments. I personally like those "one of each class, then a choose/ban phase" concepts. Why have a sideboard of 10 cards when you can swap entire decks to suit what your opponent may bring.
Note, HS' Discover mechanic sounds like our version of the Market, though with some randomization to avoid the stabilization issue. For example, priests can use Shadow Visions to either draw more removal against aggro or pull combo pieces if they feel safer.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
no its not bro. if they draw auctioneer early, they draw their whole deck cuz its filled with 0,and 1 mana spells, then they paly 2 spells that give 2 mana each and they keep going with it. I think its worse now. IMO.
I think Mojomaster isn't so bad to put in your deck. It counters most other OTK decks and if you get ahead on board, you can use it to make it more difficult for the opponent to clear, much like Loatheb
As for sideboards and extra cards, it's never going to happen. HS design philosophy is to keep it simple and easily accessible. In other words, your suggestion is "too confusing for new players"
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
You have to play against Mecha'thun Druid with a different mind set. They cannot kill you outside of combo so you are always the aggressor in this matchup no matter what deck you are playing. Remember the deck doesn't have good AoE (Swipe is not capable of clearing much) so just make the most threatening board you can as quickly as possible, use any weapons you have to control their face (maybe keep a charge if you need it to deal with a Barkskin Auctioneer but otherwise just unload damage into them as quickly as possible), and try to aggro them out of the game asap. If you're using a deck with Mojomaster Zihi just go nuts trying to draw her and keep track of what 0 mana cards have been played so you know exactly when they can combo. Drop Zihi the turn before and they just have to sit there for 4 turns taking fatigue damage before they can combo. If you can't kill them in that time you deserve to lose :)
I thinkk you missed the point of my thread. I wasnt asking about tactics vs Mechathun. I was talking about changes to the game to make matches that are auto losses vs OTK, like Control decks, more enjoyable and possible to win.
Obviously you are correct. But If im a slow deck, rock paper scissors says I lose to OTK. I was contemplating having a card pool outside of the starting 30 I can use as a resource for the upcoming match.
Too many games feel like it didnt matter what I did. I think thats a problem with the game.
thx for you input.