Hearthpwn

The main problem is, that with these decks, one aspect of the game is completely missing: the thrill of calculating what kind of deck your opponent plays. Ok, you know it "only" after the mulligan, but the whole pokerish, read/deceive your opponent thing is just disappearing from the game.

And this would be ok, if these decks werent as good as they become, but with everyone using them, this important part is lost. And with the current state, they will only become more powerful in wild, where they already top tier decks. And i like playing wild.

Quote from Lyra_Silvertongue >>

Quote from WlLFRlD >>

No, OP completely misses what is problematic about even/odd decks—i.e., they provide an immediate advantage at the start of each game. Pointing out that there aren’t many “consistent” even/odd decks doesn’t amount to much.

In Reno decks, you sacrifice consistency for the chance to potentially full heal. This trade-off is (more) balanced because limiting your deck to 30 unique cards really undermines consistency. Moreover, when playing a Reno deck, you don’t get any immediate advantage at the beginning of the game (unless maybe, e.g., you’re playing against aggro and have Reno in your opening hand, but I’d hardly call that an advantage because of deck inconsistency/super fast wild decks can kill you before turn 6), and in fact, you are at a disadvantage because you have 30 unique cards in your deck. Often times you won’t even draw Reno, and playing Reno on curve against a fast deck is hardly a surefire way to win the game. 

In contrast, even/odd decks provide an immediate advantage and don’t suffer from the same consistency drawback that Reno decks do. Having access to only even/odd cards certainly limits options, but it doesn’t inherently hurt deck consistency like Reno does. Furthermore, Reno can be played once (unless, of course, you play Zola or etc. but those are additional cards), but the discounted/upgraded hero power that Genn/Baku provides is available on turn one and lasts the entire game, unless you play a hero card or etc. 

I know that most people couldn’t care less about Wild, but even/odd decks dominate Wild above rank 5. Even Shaman is incredibly easy to play, and incredibly annoying to play against over and over in Wild—it’s not nearly as good in Standard. Odd Rogue is also very easy to play and probably tied with Even Shaman for (easy and effective) climbing in Wild. Renolock is the only other *consistently* strong deck in Wild right now. Also note that Reno decks aren’t great for climbing fast, so if you want to climb, why play Renolock when you can play Even Shaman or Odd Rogue? I’m not here to argue that Wild is “ruined” because of even/odd, but it is genuinely difficult to imagine what new cards/deck types could possibly displace even/odd decks as the best (easiest to pilot+very consistent+very powerful) options for climbing in Wild—each expansion will provide new cards for both even and odd decks, so without a nerf/change, they’re here for good. As such, it’s difficult to imagine the tier 1/2 meta changing very much, if ever, in Wild. 

In sum, comparing even/odd decks to Reno decks is a poor comparison. Reno only fits in slow decks. Even/odd works WELL in fast, midrange, and slow decks. Reno provides no immediate advantage and instead puts you at a disadvantage by ruining consistency. Even/odd provides an immediate advantage without hurting consistency (note also that being unable to run e.g., Sap in Odd Rogue, is not a consistency drawback). Wild meta suffers from the fact that even/odd decks are the best to climb ladder. 

The point about the Reno design ruining consistency greatly suffers from the fact that as more cards are released (particularly removal) the less that consistency suffers from having one of each removal. The consistency argument made sense when those of who first started using Reno decks back in LoE had significantly fewer spells/minions to remove things (Warlock had Hellfire for their earliest board clear, that's it). Now we have Hellfire AND Defile. For the late game? You had two outs for wide & tall removal in Reno Lock, Nether & Shadowflame plus some big thing). Now? We also have Godfrey. Sure, eventually we will have so much removal that you certainly won't want to include it all, but greatly suffering from not having two nethers hardly matters when you have Godfrey as out as well. As more cards release the easier it will be to mitigate the drawback of a singleton build in wild.

As for your claim that Odd & Even dominate wild in the upper ranks? No, that is not strictly correct. Even Shaman, Even Lock, and Odd Rogue generally dominate the ranks. A few scattered Odd & Even decks dominating ranks is a massive stretch from saying that Odd/Even is a such a busted mechanic that most of the 18 Odd/Even decks are wrecking ladder. Point me in the direction of the magical rank where Even Warrior is a consistent ladder deck. No? Okay, how about Odd Shaman? Even Druid, Odd Druid, Even Hunter, Odd Hunter, Even Rogue, Even Priest, Odd Priest, Odd Warlock, Even Mage? The reality of the matter is that most Odd/Even decks actually never took off as competitive decks in EITHER FORMAT. So saying that Odd/Even is dominating the ladder is reaching significantly and warping the reality of the topic (The exact same thing was done with Reno back in the day, just downscaled to 9 decks instead of 18. Oh no Reno lock has ruined the ladder and is everywhere! The reality? Reno Lock, Reno Mage, & Reno Priest/Reno Dragon Priest were everywhere competitively. Even nowadays a wild Reno Paladin, Reno Druid, & Reno Shaman have failed to appear). Saying Odd/Even is dominating is like trying to say today that Reno decks are dominating everywhere when in reality it just mostly Reno Lock, with some Reno Mage.

In order to keep this post shorter I will just ask this question. If Odd/Even decks are bad design for giving classes a benefit at the start of the game then do you think having them changed would really encourage anybody to play them competitively if they had some staggered effect? My prediction would be a resounding no considering that even with an immediate effect only approximately one third of the total 18 decks even say competitive play in either format, being utterly & completely unused in druid and shaman even with immediate start of turn effects. 

I never claimed that "even/odd decks dominate high ranks." What I claimed is that a few decks, which happen to be even/odd, are the most consistent, effective, and powerful decks to climb Wild ladder. Certainly, you're right by pointing out that there are only a few good, and only a handful that are even viable at all, even/odd decks. My point is only that the even Shaman and odd Rogue are just so (relatively) easy to pilot AND so powerful, it makes little sense to play anything else, IF your goal is to simply climb ladder as quickly and efficiently as possible. I never said, or meant to imply, that I think that even/odd decks are BROKEN. They aren't broken, but they are very, very consistent and powerful while being easy to play. I should add here that by "easy to play," I don't mean to imply that those decks require no strategy or "skill." Of course, odd Rogue and even Shaman require decision making, and certainly there are better decisions than others to make when playing these decks. I've played my fair share of odd Rogue, but I find the deck to just get boring fairly quickly. I've climbed to rank 5 with handbuff Paladin, APM Priest, Star Aligner Druid (post-nerf), and Quest Mage the past 6 months in Wild. I've had a good time playing these decks, but after getting to rank 4~, it's simply too time consuming to play these sorts of decks to climb to Legend. 

More to the point: Why would you play some version of tempo Rogue when you can just play odd Rogue? Here are some reasons why you might: (1) it's *more* fun (2) or it's *more* challenging. As a matter of fact, at this point in time, you're not going to play some version of non-odd tempo Rogue because it's strictly more effective, or "better," than odd Rogue. Certainly, one can find success on ladder with non-even/odd decks, but that's besides the point. As such, it's difficult to see how even Shaman and odd Rogue will, or even can, be displaced as the most effective decks to climb ladder in Wild in the future.

Ok, I rarely comment on a thread having not read the rest, but I want to respond to one aspect of the OP's particular point (hi again, Lyra).

I agree beyond agreement that the particular argument "restricted deck choices shouldn't be able to be high tier" is ridiculous.

Having said that, the most interesting argument doesn't relate to tier lists at all, but to health of the game in general, and it goes something like this.

You will always have your hero power.  That and mana availability are basically the only general aspects of the game completely devoid of RNG (don't quibble about whether you draw your wild growth, I understand the exceptions).  So, when you have a card that upgrades the hero power at the beginning of the game, that too is devoid of RNG.  As a simple premise, it is reasonable to assume that the more powerful (or less costly) a hero power is, the more likely it will have meaningful effect on the game.  That's one of those difficult to quantify but still obviously true statements.  In other words, the more powerful the HP, the more likely it will be the reason you win.

Therefore, the more powerful the hero power in every game played, the more likely the game will be decided by the hero power moreso than the cards drawn and played.  We see this in Odd Paladin most of all.  The shell of Odd Paladin has stayed basically unchanged since Witchwood.  Blizzard removes the most synergistic-with-HP card in the deck (Level Up) AND THE DAMN DECK IS STILL TIER 1.

This is not because paladin cards are broken.  It's because games played against Odd Paladin are decided on whether or not you can beat the hero power.

Meanwhile, the design space of the game is thoroughly constricted by a constant fear of breaking (as in "making broken") a hero power.  Most people use Level Up as the canonical example of this, but Reckless Flurry is perhaps an even more relevant example.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I've sure never seen that card in any deck that doesn't also contain Baku, and in the Odd decks, it is arguably the most powerful board clear in the entire game.  Not that I'm suggesting Reckless Flurry is broken, but the devs have to tread incredibly carefully around such mechanics until Witchwood rotates.

I don't know if anyone is convinced by the above (because I'm not really trying to convince you), but I would suggest that I have laid out a much more relevant objection.

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

Ok, I rarely comment on a thread having not read the rest, but I want to respond to one aspect of the OP's particular point (hi again, Lyra).

I agree beyond agreement that the particular argument "restricted deck choices shouldn't be able to be high tier" is ridiculous.

Having said that, the most interesting argument doesn't relate to tier lists at all, but to health of the game in general, and it goes something like this.

You will always have your hero power.  That and mana availability are basically the only general aspects of the game completely devoid of RNG (don't quibble about whether you draw your wild growth, I understand the exceptions).  So, when you have a card that upgrades the hero power at the beginning of the game, that too is devoid of RNG.  As a simple premise, it is reasonable to assume that the more powerful (or less costly) a hero power is, the more likely it will have meaningful effect on the game.  That's one of those difficult to quantify but still obviously true statements.  In other words, the more powerful the HP, the more likely it will be the reason you win.

Therefore, the more powerful the hero power in every game played, the more likely the game will be decided by the hero power moreso than the cards drawn and played.  We see this in Odd Paladin most of all.  The shell of Odd Paladin has stayed basically unchanged since Witchwood.  Blizzard removes the most synergistic-with-HP card in the deck (Level Up) AND THE DAMN DECK IS STILL TIER 1.

This is not because paladin cards are broken.  It's because games played against Odd Paladin are decided on whether or not you can beat the hero power.

Meanwhile, the design space of the game is thoroughly constricted by a constant fear of breaking (as in "making broken") a hero power.  Most people use Level Up as the canonical example of this, but Reckless Flurry is perhaps an even more relevant example.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I've sure never seen that card in any deck that doesn't also contain Baku, and in the Odd decks, it is arguably the most powerful board clear in the entire game.  Not that I'm suggesting Reckless Flurry is broken, but the devs have to tread incredibly carefully around such mechanics until Witchwood rotates.

I don't know if anyone is convinced by the above (because I'm not really trying to convince you), but I would suggest that I have laid out a much more relevant objection.

 Couldn't agree more. Well put.

That's not really the problem though. What sucks is when you have cool cards like Zentimo and Warmaster Voone that don't fit into any good archetypes even though they're good cards, because the only viable decks for those classes are locked behind the odd/even requirement.

I'm going to say that the Odd/Even archetype is not the most imbalanced thing to happen to Hearthstone, but it's pretty polarizing, even the best Odd/Even decks can't run specific cards that are usually necessary for the class to function properly in almost every other deck.

I think my best examples are Odd Rogue, Odd Mage, and Even Shaman, one that has been a fairly consistent in both standard and wild,  another has started picking up steam due to the heavy Odd-costed hero power synergy in RR, and the last one manages to have the one of the best win-rates in Wild despite missing several cards you would imagine to be crucial to midrange deck.

Odd Rogue loses Sap and Eviscerate, one making them almost auto lose against Big Priest and the other means a well-timed Skulking Geist hoses the deck's burst potential.

Odd Mage is in a worse boat, while getting the extra damage on your hero power is nice (and still being able to run Frost Lich Jaina(for now) is also quite good), the loss of Polymorph, Fireball, and Frostbolt feels like too much to even attempt to run this deck, yet some people are trying, to much less success than Odd Rogue I imagine...never really faced an Odd Mage, but considering how I usually beat the Odd Rogue's I come across, I feel like the outcome would be similar.

As for Even Shaman, I'm impressed that this deck has a 65-70% win rate considering it's missing two of the best Shaman board clears to ever be printed (Lightning Storm and Volcano) as well as various other cards that could add to the decks burst potential or their ability to survive. Look, I know most of this deck's power is attributed to the fact that it can just spit out totems making Thing from Below the cheapest good taunt minion to ever exist.

Personally, I feel like the Odd/Even mechanic sucks, the decks that are good with it do too well (some times so well that key pieces to those decks end up getting the nerf-hammer), but most of them are garbage or pretty close to it. 

I think they decided to release such powerfu cards at the beginning of the year to create variety in the game while releasing cards that are weaker power wise.. you can't continue printing KOFT level cards all the time.

each deck by itself it's varied but the "sleeper" decks uou are talking about are decks that can be revisited after each expansion (for example even rogue in RR)

^never faced an odd mage.. you must not play a lot.. odd rogue doesn't lose to those decks cause it lacks sap, it's an agressive deck. odd mage is a big spell control deck it doesn't care much about losing burst cards and even shaman is a tempo deck it doesn't need those board clears.. it still got some anyway though (hagatha and kalimos) and hagatha is a low win rate card in the deck.

Quote from ColinthePyro >>

That's not really the problem though. What sucks is when you have cool cards like Zentimo and Warmaster Voone that don't fit into any good archetypes even though they're good cards, because the only viable decks for those classes are locked behind the odd/even requirement.

 If Even Shaman was removed from the game, Shaman would have no viable Standard deck, and Zentimo would still not be played (because apparently the rest of the Shaman class is too bad for the meta).

I fail to see how the removal of Odd/Even would fix that issue.

Quote from RavenSunHP >>

Quote from ColinthePyro >>

(Stuff)

 If Even Shaman was removed from the game, Shaman would have no viable Standard deck, and Zentimo would still not be played (because apparently the rest of the Shaman class is too bad for the meta).

I fail to see how the removal of Odd/Even would fix that issue.

 I'm really sad that this is a completely correct point, that currently Shaman's best Standard deck is literally abusing the fact that there's a build-around that lets would spit out totems at 1 mana each.

Like, Shudderwock got nerfed (because as usual, Blizzard and Team 5 don't think about the synergies of cards until after they come out), and while there is technically a Maly OTK deck, it's not good and requires at least 6 cards to do 30 damage(more if you get lucky/do some fucking BS). Overall, big oof for Shaman as of right now, hopefully the next year gives Shaman some actual archetypes.

The main design problem for me was using the powered hero power thought for a 6 mana legendary card (played at 5th turn at the best, more or less when the odd paladin/rogue matches end)

They should have thought a 9 totally new alternative powers, not that difficult (i thought of this in 2 minutes)

PALADIN: a f.... 2/2 silverhand or even 2/1

ROGUE: equip 2/1 Weapon

MAGE: deal 1damage + 1 to the minions next to the target (still 1 to hero)

PRIEST: heal 2 +1 to the minion next to target (still 2 to hero)

WARRIOR: 2 armor + 1 damage to a random minion, or 3 armor

HUNTER: same of the last expansion hero

WARLOCK: summon a 8/8 Mountain giant (joking), just get one card for one damage (anyway nobody will play it anyway)

DRUID: choose 2 armor or 2 atk

SHAMAN: no idea, i am not working for blizzard though

I don't really have any major issue with even decks, some of them are very good, but not OP.

Quote from DoubleSummon >>

 

^never faced an odd mage.. you must not play a lot.. odd rogue doesn't lose to those decks cause it lacks sap, it's an agressive deck. odd mage is a big spell control deck it doesn't care much about losing burst cards and even shaman is a tempo deck it doesn't need those board clears.. it still got some anyway though (hagatha and kalimos) and hagatha is a low win rate card in the deck.

 I feel like my first post made it very clear that I play Wild-Only(Where Reno and Quest Mage are infinitely better than Odd Mage), but apparently not, but still, in my experience, sap vs. no sap is a major difference in how the deck functions.

Look, I have a buddy who plays Off-Meta in Wild, makes it to about rank 5-6 (his highest is like 3 or 4, don't remember) every season, plays an aggressive Rogue without Baku, which allows him to play Sap. He shits on Big Priest and through a little testing (getting him to build an Odd Rogue and testing them both against a Big Priest, played about 10 games each), we figure that an aggressive non-Odd/Even Rogue has about a 50% better win rate against Big Priest, with Sap being the major factor (though the ability to play a couple of stickier minions in the form of Shredder did help).

I know  a 10 game test is not a lot to go on, but I personally do feel like the ability to stifle your opponent's plays in a way that even Big Priest can't come back from is infinitely more powerful than people realize.