Well, before RR, we had TBP. We must admit it, TBP was one of the least impactful expansion we got (and the worst since TGT for me, but that depends of your opinion). A lot of old decks stayed, with not a lot of changes.
Then, I heard a lot of people (and I thought the same) that next HS expansion (that have became RR) will be important for the future of this game. Because a lot of people took a break in TBP, because the best decks were old and a bit frustrating to play against (I don't need to name them I think ;) )
For me, a lot of streamers and players, Rastakhan seemed really good. The flavor is really cool, Rumble Run seemed cool and fun and the powerlevel of the cards seemed high. And I still do think this expansion is great.
Finally, Rumble Run is a total failure and receive a lot of complaints by everyone (or almost). The RNG was blamed a lot and the matchup that feels impossible also (that you can lose on the 3rd boss sometimes). The set by itself didn't impact the meta almost at all, like BTP. Vicious Syndicate, especially, said this in his last report. As I said before, that set is important for the future of HS... And now it worries me a lot.
Well, first question to discuss about: Is HS future in danger now? Or it's going to only lose some players? Or it's totally normal?
2nd thing: I think there's a way to deal with it. And that's how:
Ban Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater from the game. Not even in the hall of fame. Yeah, that sounds weird at first look and unusual, but it's probably the best way to make Hearthstone great again (mouahahah)
Since WW and the release of those cards, not even a single expansion really made an impact on the game. Ouch. Only completely broken cards can compete with Odd and Even decks, a lot from them come from KC and KoFT. That's why a lot of people think rotation will save HS, but hey, WW is in the year of the Raven. Baku and Genn, with their usual polarized deck, are gonna lose a lot of elements, but as other decks will also. Upgraded HP is so good that these decks can afford running bad cards that had never seen play. So why would it change after the rotation, when other decks will all be a lot weaker? And I don't even talk about Wild, because they are already SO good there and they can only be better with time... And also about now, the metagame seems to be aproximately the same since 3 expansions and HS needs some fresh air and nerfing cards from last year won't change the biggest issue of the game currently.
So it became an evidence to me that they need to be nerfed. But there's no way of doing it without killing the design and Team 5 hate that. I don't want to put them in HoF, Wild is still going to be broken with always the same decks, no matter the expansion (if the power level of the expansions is following TBP and RR). So, I came to the conclusion to ban them, even if it's unusual. We're in an online game, what does limit us? The metagame will be changed from its core and even more at the rotation. That would be... insanely fun. It would be like if two new expansions (TBP and RR) were released at the same time.
Well, that took a long time writing, hope you enjoy and if a lot of you agree it would be cool if Team 5 finally listen to us, because something is needed NOW.
There's two huge flaws plaguing the game right now: overpowered sets (KotFT/K&K), and as you eloquently put, Odd and Even pushing everything out of the meta except for what is most obscenely broken. However the easiest fix of simply deleting the offending Genn and Baku, Blizzard would essentially be admittting that they fail at balance on a momumental level (the meta since Boomsday to now is a joke for balance, and predictions based on current data show it'll get MUCH WORSE). Honestly the game deserves this fate, when you don't consider the implications of VASTLY overpowered strategies that make much of everything ineffective (translation unplayable for competitive, period end of discussion), this is precisely what happens: hyper archetypes that leave little to nothing for nuance in the meta.
It will get worse before it get's better, the rotation will not fix the issues. The game is in a very precarious state where many longtime players are seeing the inevitable approach, and asking themselves "do I want to keep playing the same thing for another year?" That's a serious problem I see no solution to considering how the game is being structured and updated currently.
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If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
Baku and Genn aren't even a problem, especially if you go into Wild formats. True, Odd Paladin is a Tier 1 deck, but stronger, more refined Cubelocks, Renolocks, Priests, Druids, and Mages wipe the floor with them. The only real strong Genn deck in Wild is Even Shaman.
I suggest broadening your narrow horizons for the game.
Interesting topic, glad its not just salt. I don't have time to talk about everything, but for extra info I looked at hsreplay. Out of the 23 decks that are tier 2 or higher atm, 18 of them cannot function at all without Year of the Mammoth cards. So I think the meta will drastically change. The next question is whether or not the game can last that long. I think it definently will, but they should still nerf some of the most prevalent cards *cough* rexxar *cough*
And yeah, forgot to mention it, no salt at all ;). It's only from a perspective of improving the game and keeping the most players possible. I do enjoy some of the Even/Odd decks. It would feel bad to never play them at first, but if I can save the game and FINALLY have change in the metagame, it's sure that we can quickly forget these decks.
Baku and Genn aren't even a problem, especially if you go into Wild formats. True, Odd Paladin is a Tier 1 deck, but stronger, more refined Cubelocks, Renolocks, Priests, Druids, and Mages wipe the floor with them. The only real strong Genn deck in Wild is Even Shaman.
I suggest broadening your narrow horizons for the game.
Did I say Odd and Even decks were 100% of the meta? Not at all. In Wild, there's Odd Rogue, Even Shaman and Odd Paladin that are really strong, and others can belong to Tier 2-3. That's still a lot and as I said, Odd/Even decks can only improve with time in this format. And also as I said again, ''Only completely broken cards can compete with Odd and Even decks'' and you mentionned some of these broken decks ;) (Cubelocks, Renolocks, Big Priest, OTK Druid)
Standard should be ok when year of the mammoth expansions rotate out. Wild has big priest and kingsbane rogue which are considerably worse for players to face that odd and even decks, Genn and Baku shouldn't be a problem there.
I agree that Genn and Baku create design limitations for Team 5 but I disagree with banning them. Odd and even decks brought variety to the archetypes and made playable some cards that wouldn't have been played otherwise.
And the fact that TBP and RR did not impact meta so much is a very good thing, because that means that their power level is just right. When year of the mammoth expansions rotate out, I'm pretty sure the game will become very different.
HS is the best casual card game on the market and it has simplicity, light-hearted design, great flavour and WoW relation to back everything up. HS is not in danger (yet?)
I feel like the annoying part about genn and baku is, that whatever tactic or archetype they may introduce for the next year, there will ALWAYS be the question if you could use it in odd/even decks. And that's not fun at all. I really like the idea of having dragon warrior back (i didn't play back when it was a thing) but the deck is not good at all, the dragons mediocre, because if they would actually print strong ones, odd warrior would get stronger as well.
They have to have genn and baku in their mind for ALL cards they are trying to implement and i think that is a problem.
The game is fine. By fine I mean it isn't dying any time soon.
After the rotation the standard game will drastically change. Right now DKs & Genn/Baku pretty much carry class identity/strats (which means almost every class is defined by a single card. Once they are gone the standard game will be turned upside down.
And the fact that TBP and RR did not impact meta so much is a very good thing, because that means that their power level is just right. When year of the mammoth expansions rotate out, I'm pretty sure the game will become very different.
So let me get this straight, having the meta stagnate because the last 2 sets (arguably last 3) have kept the game stuck in the same rut, and that's a GOOD thing? Seems insane to me. Unless you sadistically enjoy facing nothing but Odd Rogue/Paladin.
Also want to address everyone hoping in the wishing well saying "well magically the meta will be fine even though Genn and Baku are still around, they won't be a problem because optimism". The only route where that argument works if they lower the power even more for the next rotation year...which is the cause of the current issues to the game. I don't understand the sense in simply hoping it'll be better without looking at EXACTLY how the game as evolved over the past year/6 months. Being critical isn't being negative, but being oblivious helps no one, most certainly not new players who might believe you under false pretenses.
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If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
I would say Genn is not the problem because his upgrade is only short term advantage in tempo (for token hero powers and rogue dagger) and as the game goes on 1 mana reduction on hero power becomes less relevant.
Baku is a big problem, because advantage of upgraded hero power is good both early and late game, and if there are too many good odd cards it becomes the only way to build the class (for classes with good upgraded hero power). So in order to keep him in check they need to print broken even costed cards, and design odd cards around him.
I don't like either Baku and Genn too because I like to deckbuild using all cards, not only half of them, but that isn't really a game breaking problem, just something I find annoying.
Baku and Genn aren't even a problem, especially if you go into Wild formats. True, Odd Paladin is a Tier 1 deck, but stronger, more refined Cubelocks, Renolocks, Priests, Druids, and Mages wipe the floor with them. The only real strong Genn deck in Wild is Even Shaman.
I suggest broadening your narrow horizons for the game.
Wdym Odd Paladin and Even Shaman + Odd rogue are all tier 1-2 in wild. It's not as bad as standard but Baku and Genn are a large part of tier 1 decks in standard and wild.
And the fact that TBP and RR did not impact meta so much is a very good thing, because that means that their power level is just right. When year of the mammoth expansions rotate out, I'm pretty sure the game will become very different.
So let me get this straight, having the meta stagnate because the last 2 sets (arguably last 3) have kept the game stuck in the same rut, and that's a GOOD thing? Seems insane to me. Unless you sadistically enjoy facing nothing but Odd Rogue/Paladin.
Also want to address everyone hoping in the wishing well saying "well magically the meta will be fine even though Genn and Baku are still around, they won't be a problem because optimism". The only route where that argument works if they lower the power even more for the next rotation year...which is the cause of the current issues to the game. I don't understand the sense in simply hoping it'll be better without looking at EXACTLY how the game as evolved over the past year/6 months. Being critical isn't being negative, but being oblivious helps no one, most certainly not new players who might believe you under false pretenses.
I'm not saying that stagnate meta is good and I enjoy it or anything. It is all a consequence of extremely strong sets of the year of the mammoth and team 5 lowering the power level. And if they keep the same power level of cards then sets should be equally impactfull.
I know that almost nothing has changed over the last 2 expansions, but the fact team 5 isn't priniting anything as insane as Rexxar, Guldan, Jaina DKs and things that completely obliterate class weaknesses like UI or Spreading Plague is good in the long-term perspective which you obviously missed in your argument.
Also just now new nerfs have been confirmed so enjoy the game and don't be so edgy.
Wow, these nerfs are so insane! We needed a big change before next rotation, and either that or ban Genn and Baku would have been okay (maybe better these nerfs after all). And that much early... that's a big gift from Team 5. Yeah! We're gonna see 2 new expansions guys :))))
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Well, before RR, we had TBP. We must admit it, TBP was one of the least impactful expansion we got (and the worst since TGT for me, but that depends of your opinion). A lot of old decks stayed, with not a lot of changes.
Then, I heard a lot of people (and I thought the same) that next HS expansion (that have became RR) will be important for the future of this game. Because a lot of people took a break in TBP, because the best decks were old and a bit frustrating to play against (I don't need to name them I think ;) )
For me, a lot of streamers and players, Rastakhan seemed really good. The flavor is really cool, Rumble Run seemed cool and fun and the powerlevel of the cards seemed high. And I still do think this expansion is great.
Finally, Rumble Run is a total failure and receive a lot of complaints by everyone (or almost). The RNG was blamed a lot and the matchup that feels impossible also (that you can lose on the 3rd boss sometimes). The set by itself didn't impact the meta almost at all, like BTP. Vicious Syndicate, especially, said this in his last report. As I said before, that set is important for the future of HS... And now it worries me a lot.
Well, first question to discuss about: Is HS future in danger now? Or it's going to only lose some players? Or it's totally normal?
2nd thing: I think there's a way to deal with it. And that's how:
Ban Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater from the game. Not even in the hall of fame. Yeah, that sounds weird at first look and unusual, but it's probably the best way to make Hearthstone great again (mouahahah)
Since WW and the release of those cards, not even a single expansion really made an impact on the game. Ouch. Only completely broken cards can compete with Odd and Even decks, a lot from them come from KC and KoFT. That's why a lot of people think rotation will save HS, but hey, WW is in the year of the Raven. Baku and Genn, with their usual polarized deck, are gonna lose a lot of elements, but as other decks will also. Upgraded HP is so good that these decks can afford running bad cards that had never seen play. So why would it change after the rotation, when other decks will all be a lot weaker? And I don't even talk about Wild, because they are already SO good there and they can only be better with time... And also about now, the metagame seems to be aproximately the same since 3 expansions and HS needs some fresh air and nerfing cards from last year won't change the biggest issue of the game currently.
So it became an evidence to me that they need to be nerfed. But there's no way of doing it without killing the design and Team 5 hate that. I don't want to put them in HoF, Wild is still going to be broken with always the same decks, no matter the expansion (if the power level of the expansions is following TBP and RR). So, I came to the conclusion to ban them, even if it's unusual. We're in an online game, what does limit us? The metagame will be changed from its core and even more at the rotation. That would be... insanely fun. It would be like if two new expansions (TBP and RR) were released at the same time.
Well, that took a long time writing, hope you enjoy and if a lot of you agree it would be cool if Team 5 finally listen to us, because something is needed NOW.
There's two huge flaws plaguing the game right now: overpowered sets (KotFT/K&K), and as you eloquently put, Odd and Even pushing everything out of the meta except for what is most obscenely broken. However the easiest fix of simply deleting the offending Genn and Baku, Blizzard would essentially be admittting that they fail at balance on a momumental level (the meta since Boomsday to now is a joke for balance, and predictions based on current data show it'll get MUCH WORSE). Honestly the game deserves this fate, when you don't consider the implications of VASTLY overpowered strategies that make much of everything ineffective (translation unplayable for competitive, period end of discussion), this is precisely what happens: hyper archetypes that leave little to nothing for nuance in the meta.
It will get worse before it get's better, the rotation will not fix the issues. The game is in a very precarious state where many longtime players are seeing the inevitable approach, and asking themselves "do I want to keep playing the same thing for another year?" That's a serious problem I see no solution to considering how the game is being structured and updated currently.
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
.......
Baku and Genn aren't even a problem, especially if you go into Wild formats. True, Odd Paladin is a Tier 1 deck, but stronger, more refined Cubelocks, Renolocks, Priests, Druids, and Mages wipe the floor with them. The only real strong Genn deck in Wild is Even Shaman.
I suggest broadening your narrow horizons for the game.
Interesting topic, glad its not just salt. I don't have time to talk about everything, but for extra info I looked at hsreplay. Out of the 23 decks that are tier 2 or higher atm, 18 of them cannot function at all without Year of the Mammoth cards. So I think the meta will drastically change. The next question is whether or not the game can last that long. I think it definently will, but they should still nerf some of the most prevalent cards *cough* rexxar *cough*
Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP
And yeah, forgot to mention it, no salt at all ;). It's only from a perspective of improving the game and keeping the most players possible. I do enjoy some of the Even/Odd decks. It would feel bad to never play them at first, but if I can save the game and FINALLY have change in the metagame, it's sure that we can quickly forget these decks.
Did I say Odd and Even decks were 100% of the meta? Not at all. In Wild, there's Odd Rogue, Even Shaman and Odd Paladin that are really strong, and others can belong to Tier 2-3. That's still a lot and as I said, Odd/Even decks can only improve with time in this format. And also as I said again, ''Only completely broken cards can compete with Odd and Even decks'' and you mentionned some of these broken decks ;) (Cubelocks, Renolocks, Big Priest, OTK Druid)
Standard should be ok when year of the mammoth expansions rotate out. Wild has big priest and kingsbane rogue which are considerably worse for players to face that odd and even decks, Genn and Baku shouldn't be a problem there.
I agree that Genn and Baku create design limitations for Team 5 but I disagree with banning them. Odd and even decks brought variety to the archetypes and made playable some cards that wouldn't have been played otherwise.
And the fact that TBP and RR did not impact meta so much is a very good thing, because that means that their power level is just right. When year of the mammoth expansions rotate out, I'm pretty sure the game will become very different.
HS is the best casual card game on the market and it has simplicity, light-hearted design, great flavour and WoW relation to back everything up. HS is not in danger (yet?)
I feel like the annoying part about genn and baku is, that whatever tactic or archetype they may introduce for the next year, there will ALWAYS be the question if you could use it in odd/even decks. And that's not fun at all. I really like the idea of having dragon warrior back (i didn't play back when it was a thing) but the deck is not good at all, the dragons mediocre, because if they would actually print strong ones, odd warrior would get stronger as well.
They have to have genn and baku in their mind for ALL cards they are trying to implement and i think that is a problem.
The game is fine. By fine I mean it isn't dying any time soon.
After the rotation the standard game will drastically change. Right now DKs & Genn/Baku pretty much carry class identity/strats (which means almost every class is defined by a single card. Once they are gone the standard game will be turned upside down.
The game is boring edmit it go play eternal you will never be bored with meta ever again.
HS cardbacks are for kids. Look at eternal cardbacks, wow.
So let me get this straight, having the meta stagnate because the last 2 sets (arguably last 3) have kept the game stuck in the same rut, and that's a GOOD thing? Seems insane to me. Unless you sadistically enjoy facing nothing but Odd Rogue/Paladin.
Also want to address everyone hoping in the wishing well saying "well magically the meta will be fine even though Genn and Baku are still around, they won't be a problem because optimism". The only route where that argument works if they lower the power even more for the next rotation year...which is the cause of the current issues to the game. I don't understand the sense in simply hoping it'll be better without looking at EXACTLY how the game as evolved over the past year/6 months. Being critical isn't being negative, but being oblivious helps no one, most certainly not new players who might believe you under false pretenses.
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
I would say Genn is not the problem because his upgrade is only short term advantage in tempo (for token hero powers and rogue dagger) and as the game goes on 1 mana reduction on hero power becomes less relevant.
Baku is a big problem, because advantage of upgraded hero power is good both early and late game, and if there are too many good odd cards it becomes the only way to build the class (for classes with good upgraded hero power). So in order to keep him in check they need to print broken even costed cards, and design odd cards around him.
I don't like either Baku and Genn too because I like to deckbuild using all cards, not only half of them, but that isn't really a game breaking problem, just something I find annoying.
The future looks just a bit brighter if Team 5 continues responding with balance changes as quickly as they have this time.
https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/22817529/upcoming-balance-update-december-2018
Wdym Odd Paladin and Even Shaman + Odd rogue are all tier 1-2 in wild. It's not as bad as standard but Baku and Genn are a large part of tier 1 decks in standard and wild.
I'm not saying that stagnate meta is good and I enjoy it or anything. It is all a consequence of extremely strong sets of the year of the mammoth and team 5 lowering the power level. And if they keep the same power level of cards then sets should be equally impactfull.
I know that almost nothing has changed over the last 2 expansions, but the fact team 5 isn't priniting anything as insane as Rexxar, Guldan, Jaina DKs and things that completely obliterate class weaknesses like UI or Spreading Plague is good in the long-term perspective which you obviously missed in your argument.
Also just now new nerfs have been confirmed so enjoy the game and don't be so edgy.
Wow, these nerfs are so insane! We needed a big change before next rotation, and either that or ban Genn and Baku would have been okay (maybe better these nerfs after all). And that much early... that's a big gift from Team 5. Yeah! We're gonna see 2 new expansions guys :))))