So far there's been a lot of letdown about the RR expansion and the rumble run game mode and all bliz and their fanboys have said was this for the most part(i admit there's been people doing the usual:"Oh they can't release good cards because the rotation is coming soon" argument), but this is a terrible excuse. The meta has been rundown and garbage since witchwood and they have done very little to solve it, and even when they attempt to solve it(Ex: the nerfs to quest rogue) it does nothing.
Blizzard has been in a DoWnWaRd SpIrAl for a long time, and i'm honestly tired of people trying to excuse them for it.
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Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
Personally, I think Rastakhan is a really fun expansion, i like all the new synergistic cards. However, the rumble run is terrible and the meta is absolutely boring and repetitive.
I have lost all hopes for any kind of meta change before rotation. Blizzard won't nerf all those broken Druid cards, DK Rexxar or Paladin's odd hero power and whatever they will nerf won't change anything.
So far there's been a lot of letdown about the RR expansion and the rumble run game mode and all bliz and their fanboys have said was this for the most part(i admit there's been people doing the usual:"Oh they can't release good cards because the rotation is coming soon" argument), but this is a terrible excuse. The meta has been rundown and garbage since witchwood and they have done very little to solve it, and even when they attempt to solve it(Ex: the nerfs to quest rogue) it does nothing.
It's not fanboyish to say that they can't release cards strong enough to change the meta. The ones saying that have been hoping for that since before the expansion was revealed.
The fact is, Blizzard scewed up with Kobold's and Catacombs. You CAN argue that they screwed up at Frozen Throne or even as far back as Un'Goro and that K&C was just a symptom of that screw up.
The problem: they were FAR too strong. They wanted to go BIG with 'mammoth', and ended up going big as far as the power level. But that's a Bad Thing for card games since you can't just sit down and eternally enjoy the game afterwards. You have to keep making new cards. And the only way to make new cards fit into a meta with strong cards is to go Up in power.
Going Up in power level does mean each set becomes useful. Thus Un'goro was more useful than Mean streets, Frozen Throne more useful than Un'goro, so on. But that means you have to keep going up. This is why Kobolds ended up with so many powerful cards that overwhelmed the meta. That's also why rotation did basically nothing to the meta since the strongest decks used the new cards that didn't rotate. It's also why Baku/Genn are so #()$#( powerful, since they have to be even STRONGER than Kobolds or the DKs to see play. This is the curse of Power Creep.
Rotation is meant to stop that. The idea is for old, high powered, cards go away leaving the a low power level to 'reset' things so that new ideas can show up modestly and still see play. Healing doesn't have to compete with Healbot or Reno. Warlock legendaries don't have to compete with Mal'ganis. That sort of thing. But when the high power comes from cards too new to rotate, rotation means nothing. When the next year has to be more powerful than the last, rotation never will mean anything.
From what I hear, MTG had the same problem in certain years: a set so powerful it warped the meta. Their solution was to avoid power creeping and to keep the power level of the next sets low. It resulted in everyone ignoring the sets until rotation knocked out the high power set. Then afterwards everyone had to scramble to use the remaining cards and accept the low power level. It was a painful time but resulted in a better experience once it was over.
I don't know if Blizzard meant to go the same route, but whether they did or didn't, that's what we're headed. Right now all of the major decks and ideas are based around last year's high powered cards. Even the 'new' decks people make rely heavily on the old sets. It sucks now if you want to compete. However, that also means ther won't be another 'cubelock' or 'jade' type deck that survives past rotation. just about everything dies or is forced to warp completely once Spring comes. Assuming the spring expansion doesn't muck things up (and it can), the meta of today will be gutted wholesale and the remaining decks will be much lower in power as everyone has to figure out how to make echo, magnetic, and Loa cards 'work'.
(of course we still have Genn/Baku decks, but that's another mistake that MAY have be necessary due to the mistakes of last year. I hold my theory that they knew Genn/Baku were too strong but that without them we would rage over staleness LONG before the reset happened and decided to just have those two be OP and work around them best they can)
After that, we can get into a more reasonable system, where the first two sets create interesting but not fully 'powerful' ideas while the third fully forms deck concepts of the year prior (think how Kazakas 'completed' Reno decks right before Reno rotated). Thus Winter ends up the time of high power levels (i.e. imagine if Shudderwock/Grumble came NOW instead of Witchwood, or how Kingsbane went from an interesting tier 3-4 deck into what looks like a high tier 2 at least this expansion) which leave once it gets boring.
Personally, I'm all for folks raging over this. It's going to be a long set of months. That I'd argue that this is the best they could do doesn't change the fact that it utterly sucks for some folks and blizzard needs to know about it. In fact, I'd argue that last year was necessary as it taught them A LOT about card design (i.e. what makes a good late game card, why a Control meta isn't as good as many people demand, why going anti-RNG per the DKs and Genn/Baku are about as bad as going GvG style RNG, why having decks base their key strategy around a single legendary is BAD THING so on) but it still is a bitter bill to swallow. Blizzard is going to have to take the rage and hate until Spring and make SUREEE to learn the lessons from it.
In the past, I would be 100% sure they would. Blizzard fans are among the best at ragefests for good and ill and Blizzard had been a company VERY good at accepting the rage, owning it, and looking for the correct solutions towards their games. I'm pretty sure Activision is gutting that part of Blizzard though. So here's to hoping there's a little bit left in Team 5.
So yeah, TL:DR version
They didn't screw up this year. They screwed up BAD last year. This year we are paying the price as they have to clean up.
Making good cards after a power creep means more power creep which causes even more problems. Do we want another Kobolds into Witchwood experience?
The weakened power level now means a better next year. IT worked in MTG. It can work here. We're set up for it. Just gotta get past this set and not screw up Spring then all of these 'bad' cards of this year become REALLY relevant and we get a very new, and low powered, meta to build on.
That I say it's 'meant to be this way' still means it sucks. Feel free to rage. Blizzard needs to know 'it sucks' even if they can't really 'fix' it right now.
I think the power level of the cards released this year (Raven) is mostly fine, if you look at this year's cards alone. The problem is that the year before (Mammoth) contains lots overpowered cards, which are still dominating the meta. RR contains a lot of good building blocks for new archetypes, but people want to win, so they're sticking to the old more powerful archetypes.
I don't think Hearthstone is getting worse, but it may not be improving fast enough. Its development has always been slow, both in terms of features and the willingness to make changes. And some players are running out of patience.
Personally, I would like to see a rotation with every set release, instead of once per year. Standard could for example contain the last 5 sets released, so at the release of RR, Un'Goro would have rotated. That way, there will be meta shifts without having to introduce more powerful cards.
They didn't screw up this year. They screwed up BAD last year. This year we are paying the price as they have to clean up.
This is the best way to summarize it !
Also, your long post was nice ;). I already knew the basics of what you're saying (mostly reading out of curiosity), but your point is well documented and well written, argumentation is pretty clear, good job !
Look at the bright side peope they manage to make the meta boring as fuck since 1st week, three times in a row! If that isn't an achievement i do not know what it is. :D
On serious note however i will agree that they fucked up last year.I mean they introduced the rotation to avoid powercreeping but they powercreeped like never before anyway lol.
This is also the 1st time i do not blame the playerbase either. I mean i am a deck builder my self and whenever i tried making a new deck, i ended up building something with a few or 0 raven cards unless i wanted to make my deck objectively worse...
I have a firm understanding of the need for the balance to stay the same with the printing of cards for every expansion.
And i know that blizzard went off the rails with KoFT(from my perspective they wanted to hype up the lich king since he's one of their main properties and they wanted it to be flashy and new to rouse interest in their game again from new and old sources) while firmly deciding to stay off those rails with KnC to keep the ride going.
But the thing is, and i've said it before, you don't need overpowered cards to change the meta. You don't need a deathstalker rexxar to change the hunter character model. As an example i point to the new card that just released Zul'jin. On it's own this card is not overpowered, it's not complicated, the effect it has isn't long-lasting like deathstalker rexxar, but it's a card you build a deck around. The same goes for other cards that aren't particularly good in a vacuum like Rhok'delar. Everyone thought Rhok'delar wouldn't see play(at least most, and yes you can argue this but it doesn't matter it's just an example) but it created the archetype of spell hunter(along with other newer tools). These new cards change the meta by introducing new deck archetypes that actually work in the current one.
I've said it when boomsday came out and i'll say it again here, it's fine if an expansion comes out with tools for deck archetypes down the road(freeze shaman, treant druid, rush warrior) but it needs cards that are playable now, and the majority need to be the ladder. To avoid people just playing the same old decks from the last expansion without even glancing at the newer cards to even think about changing their decks, and there are people today that are still playing the same unchanged version of the Shudderwock deck from the first week witchwood, because there is no need to change anything in it, there's no need to adapt because there's no change.
When rastakhan's rumble came out there were a lot of people like me, that were just exhausted with the game, they were tired of playing against nothing but 1 mana 1/3 on turn one Keleseth on turn two like clockwork and so on every game no matter what class the other person was playing, and people that were upset by druids changing as much as your brother that sleeps on your couch that just changes their shirt every day, that being, on the outside there was a slight change, but the main body is the same, lazy and uninterested, that main body being, ramp, UI, naturalize, swipe, wrath, spreading plague, DK. Druid is as unchanging mechanically as always and bliz won't do anything about it because they'd have to change EVERYTHING about the class mechanics to do it. To make a druid deck you literally gut it of the win condition and just swap it out with another one, as if you were changing a lightbulb in a light socket. This is not a problem that will go away when the deathknight does.
People are crying about Kingsbane and say that it's the plague of wild, when almost every deck you play against in wild is intended to be as broken as possible, and that has been slowly leaking into standard for the longest time with deck design being: "What cards can i add to my deck to make me live against aggro until i get to the point where i can play my guaranteed win condition OTK"
And yes i see the irony in complaining simultaneously about aggro and combo at the same time. Notice how i don't mention control? Because control is dead in the current meta, if deathstalker rexxar in an aggro deck isn't killing you with infinite value some combo deck is, or some paladin is just playing cards til you simply run out of ways to stop them from doing that. You can't play control and just get to the point where your opponent is out of cards and concedes anymore, because that's not possible anymore. If you want to play control and win you need to play a combo deck, because even if you get the luckiest draws, that aggro deck has some way to outvalue you in the end.
The problem isn't with OP cards that will just end up rotating out, it's with blizzard not throwing their players a bone with cards that make them want to make new decks, you hear it every time an expansion comes around the corner and the card reviews come out "It's a good card, but why would you play X when you can just play Y, one star" The mentality is corrupted, and i don't see that changing anytime soon, and i don't think a rotation will solve it.
Back to the title, i don't even think bliz should give packs for beating the solo mode, and most people didn't either, they just wanted something to show for it, it just came off as lazy, as least in the other single player modes that weren't full campaigns you only got the reward you got from beating it with every class, but now you don't even get to pick a class, you only have to beat it once, and you need to be insanely lucky to beat it that one time, lucky in the actual game, lucky with the buckets it gives you, lucky with the matchups(which has always been a thing), and lucky with your starting shrines. And hope you never draw the dead cards bliz added to your decks like Forbidden Ancient
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Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
I have a firm understanding of the need for the balance to stay the same with the printing of cards for every expansion.
And i know that blizzard went off the rails with KoFT(from my perspective they wanted to hype up the lich king since he's one of their main properties and they wanted it to be flashy and new to rouse interest in their game again from new and old sources) while firmly deciding to stay off those rails with KnC to keep the ride going.
As far as what happened with KoFT, along with the matter of flash they were also solving an age old issue with Hearthstone: a bad late game. Part of what made aggro such a big thing was that there wasn't much of a good late game to develop. You can't end games well off of a 9 drop that made leper gnomes or a card that requires 20 mana to get ANY affect out of it. So the Hero cards were set out to be Big, noticable, and very late game.
And it worked.. too well. It's better than the legendaries back in GvG though which is why I don't rage out about it, eeven if it did create what's going on. You smile when your child first learns how to walk, even if you know you'll be crying when they run head first into a wall and mess up their nose later. Blizzard NEEDS to screw up and learn from their screw ups if we're to ever get anywhere.
As far as the matter of overpowered cards go, that, I hope, is the lesson they took from last year, that it's better to work off of synergies between sets rather than high powered cards in the same set. And Rumble makes me feel like they learned that lesson.
Rhok'delar IS a hyperpowered card and spell hunter is a high powered deck. It was FAR more powerful than anything Hunter had going for them. That we didn't see it is just a sign we aren't good at predicting cards. It also is overshadowed by the even more broken and hyperpowered recruit/deathrattle Hunter. And overshadowed by most of the other hyperpowered cards and decks from the same expansion.
But really the real problem with these decks isn't that they ARE hyperpowered in themselves. Shudderwock, Cubelock, Kingsbane, Even Paladin, Odd Paladin, The 10000 versions of Ramp Druid, these are all, to be true, good solid decks. They existing is why we praised the post nerf Witchwood meta. I call them 'high powered' but that's not fully an insult. They are strong, and they feel good playing them. The real problem is that most of key cards for them came in Summer of 2017 and the rest in Fall of 2017. We gained all of these decks by April of 2018, meaning we are playing decks that are 1 to 1.5 years old. That is the problem isn't their existence. It's their timing.
Kingsbane shouldn't have been in the same year as Shinyfinder. Voidlord not in the same year as Lackey. Level up and Genn/Baku are in different years but Genn/Baku should've been in the Fall (well they probably shouldn't have existed but meh). That way, we get ONE expansion playing all of these decks then they go away from standard. The strongest decks in the year should have a 5 month lifespan (Dec to April), not a 1 year 5 month lifespan. That's their issue.
As far as new cards, Zul'jin you praise but the only reason why it even exist is similar to Zilliax: it fits into the old decks. It doesn't offer any new deck archetypes or concepts It MAY later, but no one will bother with that in this meta. The ONLY cards that can exist now are cards that either fit into the current deck lineup or are so strong they create their own stronger deck, like Shudderwock did. Blizzard could've easily did that by giving warlock more healing and demons, warrior more armor tools, shaman more battlecries, rogue more ways to pull up weapons...oh wait they DID which is why Kingsbane has a Rumble card in it.
We've actually had a lot of new deck designs out in the past few expansions. Frog Burst Shaman, Pogo Rogue, Gonk Druid, Odd Dragonhawk Mage, Healadin, OTK Tigerdin, Lynx Hunter, a new form of Discolock, Death Priest, Egg Paladin, Mech Warrior, Dragon Warrior, Even Pirate Rogue, Hakkar decks (How the #()$#9 is this a thing?!) and that's just what I remember now. ALL of these are interesting, new decks that do interesting and in many cases innovative things. Most of them have enough cards to make a full deck.
NONE of them are as strong as the old decks. So no one beyond memers and Johnnies make them.
You say that you want Blizzard to cards that you want to play. But HOW? As you said, why WOULD you play any deck that can't beat the current batch of decks? You don't. How can you make a new deck show up in the meta if it's not stronger than the old decks? You DON'T. You can't 'side power' power creep. Blizzard tried that crap in TGT. It doesn't work. The meta only accepts the strongest. If the deck isn't stronger, it dies. Full stop.
The only way to get new cards into the meta is to have them fit the strongest decks. That's WHY Zul'jin 'works' right now. but it will just hyperpower the decks we already have, not make new metas. Blizzard learned THAT mistake back in One Night, which did nothing but bolster old decks. We USED a lot of the cards, but we HATED it. They made SURE not to power up strong decks afterwards.
(druid doesn't count. When you can get powered up by (*)#)*( HAKKAR and nearly turn Grok into a tournament worthy deck, something is wrong with your core cards)
So the ONLY way to make NEW decks in Rumble show up in the meta is to power creep them. Make Dragonhawk mage able to sweep the entire board and be odd cost, or give healadin a minion that does damage to the hero equal to the amount of healing you did that turn. Or have the Spirit of the Bat buff your entire hand, or make the Spirit of the Shark cost 0 mana. We'd stop playing the old cards then.But we'd be back here next year, after you're sick of Dragonhawk mage lasting a full year, I promise you that. Because it's the same #(#)$#)(* mistake Blizzard made last year.
You CANNOT add new cards to the meta without power creeping the current set either by making the new deck stronger or making new decks even more stronger than the last one. Or waiting for Rotation when the power level drops so that THEY become the strongest decks.
Unless you want an even STRONGER Odd Paladin deck, or a deck that makes Odd Paladin look week plaguing the meta for the next year and a half, we're taking the third option.
Back to the title, i don't even think bliz should give packs for beating the solo mode, and most people didn't either, they just wanted something to show for it, it just came off as lazy, as least in the other single player modes that weren't full campaigns you only got the reward you got from beating it with every class, but now you don't even get to pick a class, you only have to beat it once, and you need to be insanely lucky to beat it that one time, lucky in the actual game, lucky with the buckets it gives you, lucky with the matchups(which has always been a thing), and lucky with your starting shrines. And hope you never draw the dead cards bliz added to your decks like Forbidden Ancient
I'm not going to even defend Rumble. The Constructed meta was a problem that had to happen. Rumble is a problem that shouldn't have happened. Blizzard should be using PvE to experiment with new ideas a lot more. Witchwood should've taught them that they can't rest on their laurels and bask in the limelight of Dungeon Run.
Though honestly I think the idea of linking the modes with the expansions so directly might be a problem. Dungeon Run is still awesome. They could easily just delilnk it to Kobolds and just have it be a regular mode, adding new monsters and cards, swapping things out at times. Doesn't even have to be to a set schedule, just whenever they find time to do so.
In fact, ALL o fthe PvE content can be treated as new modes. Puzzle labs is a great tool for new players and new puzzles can be added as new mechanics are released. Rumble Run could be something more PvPish, perhaps have the players decide on a 'team' and duke it out with the game tracking wins/losses. It can even be open at set times like a mini-tournament.
And they don't HAVE to work. If it sucks then let it dust and move on. if it works, keep it going. If you can't think of anything, just update the old stuff or just run some bosses ala the old adventure mode.
if all of that is too hard, just drop the whole thing of PvE content and go back to making new modes at the typical blizzard Pace.
Lots of things they could be doing. a reskin, more broken version of Dungeon Run (when we've learned in Arena/Constructed that More broken does not mean More Fun) is not one of them.
i think people like you expect to much from blizzard. there is no such thing as a 'perfect meta'. no matter what cards they print, people will just find the best deck, and play that. even if every card is as balanced as it could possibly be, there would still be the 'best deck' and everyone would play that.
the problem is not that blizzard is a horrible greedy company, and they print lots of op cards just to get your money. or that they are a bunch of idiots just cramming whatever ideas they have onto cards, making horribly unbalanced and unfun cards.
the problem is that people want to win, people want to be the best, and so they will play the best deck, whatever it is. and that will make a cancerous meta.
witchwood was going in the right direction, making lower level cards. and they should, so that way the meta is at least tolerable. but there is no way to 'fix' hearthstone, without 'fixing' all the players. and there is no way to stop this "DoWnWoRd SpIrAl".
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Rejoice, for even in death, you have become children of Thanos.
Keep in mind Ben Brode has not even been gone a year. That means 4/6 expansions currently in standard are were released under his control. Next expansion/rotation, that'll drop to 1/4. Then we'll see whether the problem is Brode's leadership/vision, or something more systemic in the game itself.
i think people like you expect to much from blizzard. there is no such thing as a 'perfect meta'. no matter what cards they print, people will just find the best deck, and play that. even if every card is as balanced as it could possibly be, there would still be the 'best deck' and everyone would play that.
the problem is not that blizzard is a horrible greedy company, and they print lots of op cards just to get your money. or that they are a bunch of idiots just cramming whatever ideas they have onto cards, making horribly unbalanced and unfun cards.
the problem is that people want to win, people want to be the best, and so they will play the best deck, whatever it is. and that will make a cancerous meta.
witchwood was going in the right direction, making lower level cards. and they should, so that way the meta is at least tolerable. but there is no way to 'fix' hearthstone, without 'fixing' all the players. and there is no way to stop this "DoWnWoRd SpIrAl".
it's a little better than that. Blaming the players is the old "This plan would work if humans didn't exist" bit. You CAN make plans that work with humans and their habits.
One good method is to have the first two expansions be 'setup'. The first expansion would be the lowest power to let us rediscover old cards and establish new deck ideas. The second expansion adds more ideas and helps solidify, but not complete, decks. The third expansion powers up decks.. of the prior year. A good example is Kingsbane Rogue, which went from an..ok deck to OMG WTF thanks to Raiding Party.
Thus we get a story of cards that spend two years powering up, get broken in the Fall, then go away in the spring leaving behind incomplete ideas and half completed decks that can be built up again next year.
Thus players will gravitate to the 'best decks' but will keep finding new ones that then slip from their grasps. Then you ignore all of the "Aww come on put XYZ into Standard!"
Look at the bright side peope they manage to make the meta boring as fuck since 1st week, three times in a row! If that isn't an achievement i do not know what it is. :D
On serious note however i will agree that they fucked up last year.I mean they introduced the rotation to avoid powercreeping but they powercreeped like never before anyway lol.
This is also the 1st time i do not blame the playerbase either. I mean i am a deck builder my self and whenever i tried making a new deck, i ended up building something with a few or 0 raven cards unless i wanted to make my deck objectively worse...
I actually blame the playerbase more now than before
I'm torn between opinions on Mamoth cards tho, i kinda remember that 8+ mana cards before DKS existed were some gimmicky or vanilla unplayable cards like that Vanilla 8/10 horror from wotg or ultrasaur, things like old gods were scarce and even then things Ysharasshj and Deathwing dragonlord were technically unplayable, people had this 16k dust aggro decks because between spending 16k dust in some gimmicky as hell legendaries or some murloc paladin/token aggro druid or pirate deck that killed the opponent in turn 5 they'd default to the later, in fact there was a point where Pirate warrior and Murloc Paladin aproached the price tag of Wallet warriors of old and yet i'd see everyone playing them, i actually wanted to see powerful lategame cards that it was worth stalling the game for, think things like shipbreaker Kraken, rith the awakener ,baneslayer angel or some of the 10 mana Eldrazi instead of Avian watcher and Prince malchezaar, however those cards did create seething brainless baby ragers that call everything tht doesn't hold their hands thrash, even 2 weeks after an expansion (you guys know what thread i'm talking about) ..so i'm pretty torn between liking and wanting more late game bombs to avoid going back to curvestone only games and disliking them for breeding a generation of dumb babyragers that can't think for themselves unless cards hold their hands.
So far there's been a lot of letdown about the RR expansion and the rumble run game mode and all bliz and their fanboys have said was this for the most part(i admit there's been people doing the usual:"Oh they can't release good cards because the rotation is coming soon" argument), but this is a terrible excuse. The meta has been rundown and garbage since witchwood and they have done very little to solve it, and even when they attempt to solve it(Ex: the nerfs to quest rogue) it does nothing.
(of course we still have Genn/Baku decks, but that's another mistake that MAY have be necessary due to the mistakes of last year. I hold my theory that they knew Genn/Baku were too strong but that without them we would rage over staleness LONG before the reset happened and decided to just have those two be OP and work around them best they can)
I agree with everything you said except this. I don't understand why people complain so much about Baku/Genn as I find them extremely interesting. With the exception of Odd Rogue and Odd Paladin which will hopefully be significantly weaker after rotation, these decks are interesting. I'm playing Even Rogue, Even Priest and Odd Mage right now and they are very fun, and far from OP. In fact I'm finding them very balanced and few of my games are decided early. I hope Even Priest will get some love next expansion, but right now it's not too bad.
Baku and Genn cards are good design IMO, it's just that Hearthstone lacks the card number to make those decks versatile and useful for every class. The only thing I don't like about them is that they made their effect universal instead of tailored for every class separately to make both Odd and Even Hero Powers useful for each class.
So far there's been a lot of letdown about the RR expansion and the rumble run game mode and all bliz and their fanboys have said was this for the most part(i admit there's been people doing the usual:"Oh they can't release good cards because the rotation is coming soon" argument), but this is a terrible excuse. The meta has been rundown and garbage since witchwood and they have done very little to solve it, and even when they attempt to solve it(Ex: the nerfs to quest rogue) it does nothing.
Blizzard has been in a DoWnWaRd SpIrAl for a long time, and i'm honestly tired of people trying to excuse them for it.
Counter point: I'm honestly tired of all the complaints.
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So far there's been a lot of letdown about the RR expansion and the rumble run game mode and all bliz and their fanboys have said was this for the most part(i admit there's been people doing the usual:"Oh they can't release good cards because the rotation is coming soon" argument), but this is a terrible excuse. The meta has been rundown and garbage since witchwood and they have done very little to solve it, and even when they attempt to solve it(Ex: the nerfs to quest rogue) it does nothing.
Blizzard has been in a DoWnWaRd SpIrAl for a long time, and i'm honestly tired of people trying to excuse them for it.
Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
https://twitter.com/davekosak/status/1074399689233944576?s=21
Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
Is this a discussion, as in, should those 'fanboys' be explaining why they are saying why Rumble needed to be what it was.
Or are you just ranting and really wouldn't appreciate folks 'defending blizzard' again?
Would like to know whether I should post one of my usual long posts or just fling a 'there's a thread for this' line.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Ah hell ya, drop a block of text, i'm into that kind of thing
Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
Personally, I think Rastakhan is a really fun expansion, i like all the new synergistic cards. However, the rumble run is terrible and the meta is absolutely boring and repetitive.
Although it is 1AM here so no guarantee that i will respond within a reasonable manner
Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
I have lost all hopes for any kind of meta change before rotation. Blizzard won't nerf all those broken Druid cards, DK Rexxar or Paladin's odd hero power and whatever they will nerf won't change anything.
It's not fanboyish to say that they can't release cards strong enough to change the meta. The ones saying that have been hoping for that since before the expansion was revealed.
The fact is, Blizzard scewed up with Kobold's and Catacombs. You CAN argue that they screwed up at Frozen Throne or even as far back as Un'Goro and that K&C was just a symptom of that screw up.
The problem: they were FAR too strong. They wanted to go BIG with 'mammoth', and ended up going big as far as the power level. But that's a Bad Thing for card games since you can't just sit down and eternally enjoy the game afterwards. You have to keep making new cards. And the only way to make new cards fit into a meta with strong cards is to go Up in power.
Going Up in power level does mean each set becomes useful. Thus Un'goro was more useful than Mean streets, Frozen Throne more useful than Un'goro, so on. But that means you have to keep going up. This is why Kobolds ended up with so many powerful cards that overwhelmed the meta. That's also why rotation did basically nothing to the meta since the strongest decks used the new cards that didn't rotate. It's also why Baku/Genn are so #()$#( powerful, since they have to be even STRONGER than Kobolds or the DKs to see play. This is the curse of Power Creep.
Rotation is meant to stop that. The idea is for old, high powered, cards go away leaving the a low power level to 'reset' things so that new ideas can show up modestly and still see play. Healing doesn't have to compete with Healbot or Reno. Warlock legendaries don't have to compete with Mal'ganis. That sort of thing. But when the high power comes from cards too new to rotate, rotation means nothing. When the next year has to be more powerful than the last, rotation never will mean anything.
From what I hear, MTG had the same problem in certain years: a set so powerful it warped the meta. Their solution was to avoid power creeping and to keep the power level of the next sets low. It resulted in everyone ignoring the sets until rotation knocked out the high power set. Then afterwards everyone had to scramble to use the remaining cards and accept the low power level. It was a painful time but resulted in a better experience once it was over.
I don't know if Blizzard meant to go the same route, but whether they did or didn't, that's what we're headed. Right now all of the major decks and ideas are based around last year's high powered cards. Even the 'new' decks people make rely heavily on the old sets. It sucks now if you want to compete. However, that also means ther won't be another 'cubelock' or 'jade' type deck that survives past rotation. just about everything dies or is forced to warp completely once Spring comes. Assuming the spring expansion doesn't muck things up (and it can), the meta of today will be gutted wholesale and the remaining decks will be much lower in power as everyone has to figure out how to make echo, magnetic, and Loa cards 'work'.
(of course we still have Genn/Baku decks, but that's another mistake that MAY have be necessary due to the mistakes of last year. I hold my theory that they knew Genn/Baku were too strong but that without them we would rage over staleness LONG before the reset happened and decided to just have those two be OP and work around them best they can)
After that, we can get into a more reasonable system, where the first two sets create interesting but not fully 'powerful' ideas while the third fully forms deck concepts of the year prior (think how Kazakas 'completed' Reno decks right before Reno rotated). Thus Winter ends up the time of high power levels (i.e. imagine if Shudderwock/Grumble came NOW instead of Witchwood, or how Kingsbane went from an interesting tier 3-4 deck into what looks like a high tier 2 at least this expansion) which leave once it gets boring.
Personally, I'm all for folks raging over this. It's going to be a long set of months. That I'd argue that this is the best they could do doesn't change the fact that it utterly sucks for some folks and blizzard needs to know about it. In fact, I'd argue that last year was necessary as it taught them A LOT about card design (i.e. what makes a good late game card, why a Control meta isn't as good as many people demand, why going anti-RNG per the DKs and Genn/Baku are about as bad as going GvG style RNG, why having decks base their key strategy around a single legendary is BAD THING so on) but it still is a bitter bill to swallow. Blizzard is going to have to take the rage and hate until Spring and make SUREEE to learn the lessons from it.
In the past, I would be 100% sure they would. Blizzard fans are among the best at ragefests for good and ill and Blizzard had been a company VERY good at accepting the rage, owning it, and looking for the correct solutions towards their games. I'm pretty sure Activision is gutting that part of Blizzard though. So here's to hoping there's a little bit left in Team 5.
So yeah, TL:DR version
They didn't screw up this year. They screwed up BAD last year. This year we are paying the price as they have to clean up.
Making good cards after a power creep means more power creep which causes even more problems. Do we want another Kobolds into Witchwood experience?
The weakened power level now means a better next year. IT worked in MTG. It can work here. We're set up for it. Just gotta get past this set and not screw up Spring then all of these 'bad' cards of this year become REALLY relevant and we get a very new, and low powered, meta to build on.
That I say it's 'meant to be this way' still means it sucks. Feel free to rage. Blizzard needs to know 'it sucks' even if they can't really 'fix' it right now.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I think the power level of the cards released this year (Raven) is mostly fine, if you look at this year's cards alone. The problem is that the year before (Mammoth) contains lots overpowered cards, which are still dominating the meta. RR contains a lot of good building blocks for new archetypes, but people want to win, so they're sticking to the old more powerful archetypes.
I don't think Hearthstone is getting worse, but it may not be improving fast enough. Its development has always been slow, both in terms of features and the willingness to make changes. And some players are running out of patience.
Personally, I would like to see a rotation with every set release, instead of once per year. Standard could for example contain the last 5 sets released, so at the release of RR, Un'Goro would have rotated. That way, there will be meta shifts without having to introduce more powerful cards.
This is the best way to summarize it !
Also, your long post was nice ;). I already knew the basics of what you're saying (mostly reading out of curiosity), but your point is well documented and well written, argumentation is pretty clear, good job !
Look at the bright side peope they manage to make the meta boring as fuck since 1st week, three times in a row! If that isn't an achievement i do not know what it is. :D
On serious note however i will agree that they fucked up last year.I mean they introduced the rotation to avoid powercreeping but they powercreeped like never before anyway lol.
This is also the 1st time i do not blame the playerbase either. I mean i am a deck builder my self and whenever i tried making a new deck, i ended up building something with a few or 0 raven cards unless i wanted to make my deck objectively worse...
I have a firm understanding of the need for the balance to stay the same with the printing of cards for every expansion.
And i know that blizzard went off the rails with KoFT(from my perspective they wanted to hype up the lich king since he's one of their main properties and they wanted it to be flashy and new to rouse interest in their game again from new and old sources) while firmly deciding to stay off those rails with KnC to keep the ride going.
But the thing is, and i've said it before, you don't need overpowered cards to change the meta. You don't need a deathstalker rexxar to change the hunter character model. As an example i point to the new card that just released Zul'jin. On it's own this card is not overpowered, it's not complicated, the effect it has isn't long-lasting like deathstalker rexxar, but it's a card you build a deck around. The same goes for other cards that aren't particularly good in a vacuum like Rhok'delar. Everyone thought Rhok'delar wouldn't see play(at least most, and yes you can argue this but it doesn't matter it's just an example) but it created the archetype of spell hunter(along with other newer tools). These new cards change the meta by introducing new deck archetypes that actually work in the current one.
I've said it when boomsday came out and i'll say it again here, it's fine if an expansion comes out with tools for deck archetypes down the road(freeze shaman, treant druid, rush warrior) but it needs cards that are playable now, and the majority need to be the ladder. To avoid people just playing the same old decks from the last expansion without even glancing at the newer cards to even think about changing their decks, and there are people today that are still playing the same unchanged version of the Shudderwock deck from the first week witchwood, because there is no need to change anything in it, there's no need to adapt because there's no change.
When rastakhan's rumble came out there were a lot of people like me, that were just exhausted with the game, they were tired of playing against nothing but 1 mana 1/3 on turn one Keleseth on turn two like clockwork and so on every game no matter what class the other person was playing, and people that were upset by druids changing as much as your brother that sleeps on your couch that just changes their shirt every day, that being, on the outside there was a slight change, but the main body is the same, lazy and uninterested, that main body being, ramp, UI, naturalize, swipe, wrath, spreading plague, DK. Druid is as unchanging mechanically as always and bliz won't do anything about it because they'd have to change EVERYTHING about the class mechanics to do it. To make a druid deck you literally gut it of the win condition and just swap it out with another one, as if you were changing a lightbulb in a light socket. This is not a problem that will go away when the deathknight does.
People are crying about Kingsbane and say that it's the plague of wild, when almost every deck you play against in wild is intended to be as broken as possible, and that has been slowly leaking into standard for the longest time with deck design being: "What cards can i add to my deck to make me live against aggro until i get to the point where i can play my guaranteed win condition OTK"
And yes i see the irony in complaining simultaneously about aggro and combo at the same time. Notice how i don't mention control? Because control is dead in the current meta, if deathstalker rexxar in an aggro deck isn't killing you with infinite value some combo deck is, or some paladin is just playing cards til you simply run out of ways to stop them from doing that. You can't play control and just get to the point where your opponent is out of cards and concedes anymore, because that's not possible anymore. If you want to play control and win you need to play a combo deck, because even if you get the luckiest draws, that aggro deck has some way to outvalue you in the end.
The problem isn't with OP cards that will just end up rotating out, it's with blizzard not throwing their players a bone with cards that make them want to make new decks, you hear it every time an expansion comes around the corner and the card reviews come out "It's a good card, but why would you play X when you can just play Y, one star" The mentality is corrupted, and i don't see that changing anytime soon, and i don't think a rotation will solve it.
Back to the title, i don't even think bliz should give packs for beating the solo mode, and most people didn't either, they just wanted something to show for it, it just came off as lazy, as least in the other single player modes that weren't full campaigns you only got the reward you got from beating it with every class, but now you don't even get to pick a class, you only have to beat it once, and you need to be insanely lucky to beat it that one time, lucky in the actual game, lucky with the buckets it gives you, lucky with the matchups(which has always been a thing), and lucky with your starting shrines. And hope you never draw the dead cards bliz added to your decks like Forbidden Ancient
Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
As far as what happened with KoFT, along with the matter of flash they were also solving an age old issue with Hearthstone: a bad late game. Part of what made aggro such a big thing was that there wasn't much of a good late game to develop. You can't end games well off of a 9 drop that made leper gnomes or a card that requires 20 mana to get ANY affect out of it. So the Hero cards were set out to be Big, noticable, and very late game.
And it worked.. too well. It's better than the legendaries back in GvG though which is why I don't rage out about it, eeven if it did create what's going on. You smile when your child first learns how to walk, even if you know you'll be crying when they run head first into a wall and mess up their nose later. Blizzard NEEDS to screw up and learn from their screw ups if we're to ever get anywhere.
As far as the matter of overpowered cards go, that, I hope, is the lesson they took from last year, that it's better to work off of synergies between sets rather than high powered cards in the same set. And Rumble makes me feel like they learned that lesson.
Rhok'delar IS a hyperpowered card and spell hunter is a high powered deck. It was FAR more powerful than anything Hunter had going for them. That we didn't see it is just a sign we aren't good at predicting cards. It also is overshadowed by the even more broken and hyperpowered recruit/deathrattle Hunter. And overshadowed by most of the other hyperpowered cards and decks from the same expansion.
But really the real problem with these decks isn't that they ARE hyperpowered in themselves. Shudderwock, Cubelock, Kingsbane, Even Paladin, Odd Paladin, The 10000 versions of Ramp Druid, these are all, to be true, good solid decks. They existing is why we praised the post nerf Witchwood meta. I call them 'high powered' but that's not fully an insult. They are strong, and they feel good playing them. The real problem is that most of key cards for them came in Summer of 2017 and the rest in Fall of 2017. We gained all of these decks by April of 2018, meaning we are playing decks that are 1 to 1.5 years old. That is the problem isn't their existence. It's their timing.
Kingsbane shouldn't have been in the same year as Shinyfinder. Voidlord not in the same year as Lackey. Level up and Genn/Baku are in different years but Genn/Baku should've been in the Fall (well they probably shouldn't have existed but meh). That way, we get ONE expansion playing all of these decks then they go away from standard. The strongest decks in the year should have a 5 month lifespan (Dec to April), not a 1 year 5 month lifespan. That's their issue.
As far as new cards, Zul'jin you praise but the only reason why it even exist is similar to Zilliax: it fits into the old decks. It doesn't offer any new deck archetypes or concepts It MAY later, but no one will bother with that in this meta. The ONLY cards that can exist now are cards that either fit into the current deck lineup or are so strong they create their own stronger deck, like Shudderwock did. Blizzard could've easily did that by giving warlock more healing and demons, warrior more armor tools, shaman more battlecries, rogue more ways to pull up weapons...oh wait they DID which is why Kingsbane has a Rumble card in it.
We've actually had a lot of new deck designs out in the past few expansions. Frog Burst Shaman, Pogo Rogue, Gonk Druid, Odd Dragonhawk Mage, Healadin, OTK Tigerdin, Lynx Hunter, a new form of Discolock, Death Priest, Egg Paladin, Mech Warrior, Dragon Warrior, Even Pirate Rogue, Hakkar decks (How the #()$#9 is this a thing?!) and that's just what I remember now. ALL of these are interesting, new decks that do interesting and in many cases innovative things. Most of them have enough cards to make a full deck.
NONE of them are as strong as the old decks. So no one beyond memers and Johnnies make them.
You say that you want Blizzard to cards that you want to play. But HOW? As you said, why WOULD you play any deck that can't beat the current batch of decks? You don't. How can you make a new deck show up in the meta if it's not stronger than the old decks? You DON'T. You can't 'side power' power creep. Blizzard tried that crap in TGT. It doesn't work. The meta only accepts the strongest. If the deck isn't stronger, it dies. Full stop.
The only way to get new cards into the meta is to have them fit the strongest decks. That's WHY Zul'jin 'works' right now. but it will just hyperpower the decks we already have, not make new metas. Blizzard learned THAT mistake back in One Night, which did nothing but bolster old decks. We USED a lot of the cards, but we HATED it. They made SURE not to power up strong decks afterwards.
(druid doesn't count. When you can get powered up by (*)#)*( HAKKAR and nearly turn Grok into a tournament worthy deck, something is wrong with your core cards)
So the ONLY way to make NEW decks in Rumble show up in the meta is to power creep them. Make Dragonhawk mage able to sweep the entire board and be odd cost, or give healadin a minion that does damage to the hero equal to the amount of healing you did that turn. Or have the Spirit of the Bat buff your entire hand, or make the Spirit of the Shark cost 0 mana. We'd stop playing the old cards then.But we'd be back here next year, after you're sick of Dragonhawk mage lasting a full year, I promise you that. Because it's the same #(#)$#)(* mistake Blizzard made last year.
You CANNOT add new cards to the meta without power creeping the current set either by making the new deck stronger or making new decks even more stronger than the last one. Or waiting for Rotation when the power level drops so that THEY become the strongest decks.
Unless you want an even STRONGER Odd Paladin deck, or a deck that makes Odd Paladin look week plaguing the meta for the next year and a half, we're taking the third option.
I'm not going to even defend Rumble. The Constructed meta was a problem that had to happen. Rumble is a problem that shouldn't have happened. Blizzard should be using PvE to experiment with new ideas a lot more. Witchwood should've taught them that they can't rest on their laurels and bask in the limelight of Dungeon Run.
Though honestly I think the idea of linking the modes with the expansions so directly might be a problem. Dungeon Run is still awesome. They could easily just delilnk it to Kobolds and just have it be a regular mode, adding new monsters and cards, swapping things out at times. Doesn't even have to be to a set schedule, just whenever they find time to do so.
In fact, ALL o fthe PvE content can be treated as new modes. Puzzle labs is a great tool for new players and new puzzles can be added as new mechanics are released. Rumble Run could be something more PvPish, perhaps have the players decide on a 'team' and duke it out with the game tracking wins/losses. It can even be open at set times like a mini-tournament.
And they don't HAVE to work. If it sucks then let it dust and move on. if it works, keep it going. If you can't think of anything, just update the old stuff or just run some bosses ala the old adventure mode.
if all of that is too hard, just drop the whole thing of PvE content and go back to making new modes at the typical blizzard Pace.
Lots of things they could be doing. a reskin, more broken version of Dungeon Run (when we've learned in Arena/Constructed that More broken does not mean More Fun) is not one of them.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
i think people like you expect to much from blizzard. there is no such thing as a 'perfect meta'. no matter what cards they print, people will just find the best deck, and play that. even if every card is as balanced as it could possibly be, there would still be the 'best deck' and everyone would play that.
the problem is not that blizzard is a horrible greedy company, and they print lots of op cards just to get your money. or that they are a bunch of idiots just cramming whatever ideas they have onto cards, making horribly unbalanced and unfun cards.
the problem is that people want to win, people want to be the best, and so they will play the best deck, whatever it is. and that will make a cancerous meta.
witchwood was going in the right direction, making lower level cards. and they should, so that way the meta is at least tolerable. but there is no way to 'fix' hearthstone, without 'fixing' all the players. and there is no way to stop this "DoWnWoRd SpIrAl".
Rejoice, for even in death, you have become children of Thanos.
Keep in mind Ben Brode has not even been gone a year. That means 4/6 expansions currently in standard are were released under his control. Next expansion/rotation, that'll drop to 1/4. Then we'll see whether the problem is Brode's leadership/vision, or something more systemic in the game itself.
it's a little better than that. Blaming the players is the old "This plan would work if humans didn't exist" bit. You CAN make plans that work with humans and their habits.
One good method is to have the first two expansions be 'setup'. The first expansion would be the lowest power to let us rediscover old cards and establish new deck ideas. The second expansion adds more ideas and helps solidify, but not complete, decks. The third expansion powers up decks.. of the prior year. A good example is Kingsbane Rogue, which went from an..ok deck to OMG WTF thanks to Raiding Party.
Thus we get a story of cards that spend two years powering up, get broken in the Fall, then go away in the spring leaving behind incomplete ideas and half completed decks that can be built up again next year.
Thus players will gravitate to the 'best decks' but will keep finding new ones that then slip from their grasps. Then you ignore all of the "Aww come on put XYZ into Standard!"
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
The point is not that RR is weak on purpose because Rotation is incoming.
The point is that you will appreciate RR when the incoming Standard Rotation hits.
Because it will clear a good chunk of oppressing powercreep from the Year of the Mammoth, which is what is making RR feel weak in the first place.
I actually blame the playerbase more now than before
I'm torn between opinions on Mamoth cards tho, i kinda remember that 8+ mana cards before DKS existed were some gimmicky or vanilla unplayable cards like that Vanilla 8/10 horror from wotg or ultrasaur, things like old gods were scarce and even then things Ysharasshj and Deathwing dragonlord were technically unplayable, people had this 16k dust aggro decks because between spending 16k dust in some gimmicky as hell legendaries or some murloc paladin/token aggro druid or pirate deck that killed the opponent in turn 5 they'd default to the later, in fact there was a point where Pirate warrior and Murloc Paladin aproached the price tag of Wallet warriors of old and yet i'd see everyone playing them, i actually wanted to see powerful lategame cards that it was worth stalling the game for, think things like shipbreaker Kraken, rith the awakener ,baneslayer angel or some of the 10 mana Eldrazi instead of Avian watcher and Prince malchezaar, however those cards did create seething brainless baby ragers that call everything tht doesn't hold their hands thrash, even 2 weeks after an expansion (you guys know what thread i'm talking about) ..so i'm pretty torn between liking and wanting more late game bombs to avoid going back to curvestone only games and disliking them for breeding a generation of dumb babyragers that can't think for themselves unless cards hold their hands.
I agree with everything you said except this. I don't understand why people complain so much about Baku/Genn as I find them extremely interesting. With the exception of Odd Rogue and Odd Paladin which will hopefully be significantly weaker after rotation, these decks are interesting. I'm playing Even Rogue, Even Priest and Odd Mage right now and they are very fun, and far from OP. In fact I'm finding them very balanced and few of my games are decided early. I hope Even Priest will get some love next expansion, but right now it's not too bad.
Baku and Genn cards are good design IMO, it's just that Hearthstone lacks the card number to make those decks versatile and useful for every class. The only thing I don't like about them is that they made their effect universal instead of tailored for every class separately to make both Odd and Even Hero Powers useful for each class.
Counter point: I'm honestly tired of all the complaints.