So im seeing this arguments for a long time and i just want to discuss it. So feel free to join.
As a rogue main ( main in Hs LuL) i dont understand preperation argument. i mean if they hof it or remove it, would they seriously craft a 2 mana necrium vial? or 1 mana wanted?
it reduces the cost but you need prep on your hand, so you use two cards.
i mean without prep, rogue would be way more bonkers, dont you think?
The purpose of HoFing cards is what it creates a deck or playstyle that rotations can't change. For example, Ice Block in mage was used for one purpose: the Freeze Mage deck. Every expansion then came a question of "Does freeze mage return?" And ever freeze mage worked the same: Stall the game until an knock out burst combo is found then burst.
Note that it has nothing to do with whether the deck is too strong or unfun: that's what nerfs are for. It's just whether the deck never really goes away or remakes itself into something new.
In comparison mage has fireball which DOES like to go face. But it's existance doesn't force mage to always be looking for a burn deck. Even with fireball, mage is more than happy to take up a Secret Tempo deck, a grindy control deck, or a fast burn deck. Sometimes it uses fireball, sometimes not, but the card existing isn't forcing the same archetype.
Thus Ice Block is HoFed and fireball stays around.
There IS another reason to HoF a card: if it causes designers to be too limited in design space due to the card's abilities. But that is not something players can determine. Whether a card is a bother for designers is up to them, not us.
So the question, what exactly is preparation locking rogue into?
That it lets it do crazy things is a feature, not a bug. It's 'unfair' which is NOT a reason to change anything. You're SUPPOSED to find unfair ways to do things. Mages blasting you from the hand. Paladins constantly healing to full. Warriors killing 3 cards with one of theirs or better. Druids having 10 mana while you have 3. These are FEATURES. So rogue being able to cheat out cheap spells, by itself, isn't a negative element. To be nerf worthy, it has to produce a deck that's far too polarizing or breaks the entire meta.
So what deck is breaking the game of rogue? What deck is so polarizing the meta that it's making it stale?
Preparation is fine , its good to do unfair things. Dragon's Fury is an unfair card too it deals tons of damage for 5 Mana AoE better than flamestrike that means it already cheats at least 2 Mana or more is like Preparation and so on.
Personally i woulda just prefered Rogue to get Oil card to replace Conceal not a garbage card , Oil was soo fun.
As long this card remain in Standard the majority of spells for rogue will be crap, terrible and insanely overcosted, just look how disgusting is rogue spellstone and compare with hunter, warlock or even druid spellstone and you will see how badly is.
For all Old Gods Blizzard, send this card to Hell HoF and safe rogue class from suffering in the future.
As long this card remain in Standard the majority of spells for rogue will be crap, terrible and insanely overcosted, just look how disgusting is rogue spellstone and compare with hunter, warlock or even druid spellstone and you will see how badly is.
For all Old Gods Blizzard, send this card to Hell HoF and safe rogue class from suffering in the future.
this is why i opened this discussion. i know what you mean but you will still need prep to use spells which cant be tutored.
Dont know what they will do to the card(if they will ever do anything). As a wild player HoF doesnt affect me.
Which reminds me. Blade flurry nerfed for class identity which rogue needs to be weak against wide boards. Then again, Druid got Spreading plague...
I see over-costed big spells/super cheap little spells as part of rogues identity. Prep is is the central driver for this theme. Often in favour of nerfs or rotations but not this time.
The purpose of HoFing cards is what it creates a deck or playstyle that rotations can't change. For example, Ice Block in mage was used for one purpose: the Freeze Mage deck. Every expansion then came a question of "Does freeze mage return?" And ever freeze mage worked the same: Stall the game until an knock out burst combo is found then burst.
Note that it has nothing to do with whether the deck is too strong or unfun: that's what nerfs are for. It's just whether the deck never really goes away or remakes itself into something new.
In comparison mage has fireball which DOES like to go face. But it's existance doesn't force mage to always be looking for a burn deck. Even with fireball, mage is more than happy to take up a Secret Tempo deck, a grindy control deck, or a fast burn deck. Sometimes it uses fireball, sometimes not, but the card existing isn't forcing the same archetype.
Thus Ice Block is HoFed and fireball stays around.
There IS another reason to HoF a card: if it causes designers to be too limited in design space due to the card's abilities. But that is not something players can determine. Whether a card is a bother for designers is up to them, not us.
So the question, what exactly is preparation locking rogue into?
That it lets it do crazy things is a feature, not a bug. It's 'unfair' which is NOT a reason to change anything. You're SUPPOSED to find unfair ways to do things. Mages blasting you from the hand. Paladins constantly healing to full. Warriors killing 3 cards with one of theirs or better. Druids having 10 mana while you have 3. These are FEATURES. So rogue being able to cheat out cheap spells, by itself, isn't a negative element. To be nerf worthy, it has to produce a deck that's far too polarizing or breaks the entire meta.
So what deck is breaking the game of rogue? What deck is so polarizing the meta that it's making it stale?
oh yeah. they printed counterfeit coin and tomb pillager even tho they knew rogue had prep. so i guess its not that limiting?? :))
There is no class identity, Druid is not weak to ST nor AoE boards, Spreading Plague in Standard but Poison Seeds in Wild basically saying you can have a full board of Ancient Ones and just Seeds + Starfall and bye bye board.
Blade Flurry nerf was unfair and killed the card, they shoulda just HoF the card tbh, Blade Flurry needs to be HoFed not Prep because that card is a waste of Rare card spot in Standard after the nerfs !
As long this card remain in Standard the majority of spells for rogue will be crap, terrible and insanely overcosted, just look how disgusting is rogue spellstone and compare with hunter, warlock or even druid spellstone and you will see how badly is.
For all Old Gods Blizzard, send this card to Hell HoF and safe rogue class from suffering in the future.
But if all rogues spells were designed with prep in mind, then they simply can't move it to hof without rebalancing entire rogue card pool?
There is no class identity, Druid is not weak to ST nor AoE boards, Spreading Plague in Standard but Poison Seeds in Wild basically saying you can have a full board of Ancient Ones and just Seeds + Starfall and bye bye board.
Blade Flurry nerf was unfair and killed the card, they shoulda just HoF the card tbh, Blade Flurry needs to be HoFed not Prep because that card is a waste of Rare card spot in Standard after the nerfs !
Well if Prep was HoFed then IF staff wanted to print actually great Spells for Rogue without keeping Track of Prep then it would only make Rogue OP in Wild.
HoF ing the card would only lead to power crept spell cards in Wild more abused with Prep , HoF is generally a bad idea for this card because Wild will suffer in the long term.
There is no class identity, Druid is not weak to ST nor AoE boards, Spreading Plague in Standard but Poison Seeds in Wild basically saying you can have a full board of Ancient Ones and just Seeds + Starfall and bye bye board.
Blade Flurry nerf was unfair and killed the card, they shoulda just HoF the card tbh, Blade Flurry needs to be HoFed not Prep because that card is a waste of Rare card spot in Standard after the nerfs !
There is class identity, but part of the theme of Knights of the Frozen Throne was that all classes are now death knights, and they made the horrible mistake of using that as a reason to break class identity. In nearly all other expansions things have been consistent.
If they HoF the card they will probably print a 2 Mana StealthCycle card : Deal 2 damage to a minion,draw a card if it is Stealthed.
I do not want crappy cards to open in classic packs as epics whatsoever!
This is complete nonsense. If you already have Prep then it just replaces opening 100 dust with whatever epic they replace it with, which is at worst 100 dust.
Regarding Prep, moving it to the HoF will temporarily hurt the class in standard as it has to live with overcosted spells from the Year of the Raven. BUT in the long run the class will break out of the shackles of the card as it gets properly costed spells to work with. The arguments for HoF-ing Prep are viewing things in a long-time perspective, and after a year the effects of how it warps [damages] the class should have all but gone.
I don't have faith the Prep will be replaced by a at least GOOD/Decent card as part of Classic set after i saw what they did with Ice Block.
Again Prep is not a huge design card limiting one. If it ever was broken in one expansion upping the mana cost of new expansion spells is always the way to balance it in this case.
Well if Prep was HoFed then IF staff wanted to print actually great Spells for Rogue without keeping Track of Prep then it would only make Rogue OP in Wild.
HoF ing the card would only lead to power crept spell cards in Wild more abused with Prep , HoF is generally a bad idea for this card because Wild will suffer in the long term.
ohh wild will suffer in the longterm regardless if they HoF prep or not, it's hard to keep track of all effects you print for any expansion and something will eventually break anyways even if it's relativelt stable atm, most games with "expanded" or "Modern" formats, just give up trying to do the impossible and just issue bans, for example in mtg's modern format the expected thing is that one of the players will win at exactly turn 4, so wizards ban anything that allows wins earlier than turn 4 but dont go over every card that allows players to win by turn 4 because it would be a massively daunting task over the thousands of unique cards, this rubs some people the wrong way but is the only thing you can do with thousands of cards and a sane amount of workload.
As for the prep argument, Blizz were the ones that stated that prep was the one card that constrained rogue's design space, it isn't a community's invention, it is a real official statement, so the argument has actual weight.
Prep's biggest problem is its versatility. I can be used in basically any deck and performs well. Prep into Raiding Party is insane as it triggers the Combo and draws you 3 cards for a 2 card 0 Mana investment. While there are cards out there that provide great value for cost, such as Dragon's Fury, they are usually more limited in the decks they can go in. Dragon's Fury forces the player to severely reduce the number of low cost spells in their deck. Hunter Spellstone althoug very powerful can only go into a deck with plenty of secrets. Prep has been part of about every good Rogue deck, with the exception of odd Rogue for obvious reasons. I feel like Prep needs to go to open up some design space for Rogue spells. Honestly, the fact that Raiding Party exists at 3 Mana is hinting at Prep's departure from Standard at rotation. Basically giving people a short window to do very powerful stuff before rotation balances it out. Same goes for Jaina and Rag. I feel like they gave us Rag specifically at this time so we can enjoy this powerful interaction for a brief time before it tthen goes away.
I don#t think they'll ever substantially nerf prep, even if it's just because they would have to rebalance a ton of cards.
Sprint for example is only worth playing because you have access to prep. Then there's new cads like Cannon Barrage, Wanted!, etc. that have will never ever see play at their mana cost without it.
Also...what would those spells even look like without Prep. Sprint wouldn't just be a 4-mana draw 4. That would be absurd. Cannon Barrage won't suddenly just be 3-mana. At best they'd be 1 or 2 mana less, which actively makes them worse than they are right now.
Idk why people think nerfing Prep will somehow get Rogue "better" spells. Prep never "broke" any deck. The only time when Prep ever was a major factor it was during Un'goro with quest Rogue, a deckk that had so many more problems outside of Preparation. Maly Rogue hasn't been a thing for a while (the meme version doesn't count) and Aucitoneer hasn't seen play in almost a year.
Literally most of the reasons people like to mention for nerfing HoFing Prep just aren't real issues anymore. It's not like Team 5 is going to be like: "now that prep is gone let's give Rogue a 6-mana Flamestrike" At best they're giving us 3-4 mana spells that would have cost 1 mana more before.
I don#t think they'll ever substantially nerf prep, even if it's just because they would have to rebalance a ton of cards.
Sprint for example is only worth playing because you have access to prep. Then there's new cads like Cannon Barrage, Wanted!, etc. that have will never ever see play at their mana cost without it.
Also...what would those spells even look like without Prep. Sprint wouldn't just be a 4-mana draw 4. That would be absurd. Cannon Barrage won't suddenly just be 3-mana. At best they'd be 1 or 2 mana less, which actively makes them worse than they are right now.
Idk why people think nerfing Prep will somehow get Rogue "better" spells. Prep never "broke" any deck. The only time when Prep ever was a major factor it was during Un'goro with quest Rogue, a deckk that had so many more problems outside of Preparation. Maly Rogue hasn't been a thing for a while (the meme version doesn't count) and Aucitoneer hasn't seen play in almost a year.
Literally most of the reasons people like to mention for nerfing HoFing Prep just aren't real issues anymore. It's not like Team 5 is going to be like: "now that prep is gone let's give Rogue a 6-mana Flamestrike" At best they're giving us 3-4 mana spells that would have cost 1 mana more before.
You are saying that prep goes into every deck? From my experience it doesn't... tons of the spells seem fair without prep even in the deck.
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So im seeing this arguments for a long time and i just want to discuss it. So feel free to join.
As a rogue main ( main in Hs LuL) i dont understand preperation argument. i mean if they hof it or remove it, would they seriously craft a 2 mana necrium vial? or 1 mana wanted?
it reduces the cost but you need prep on your hand, so you use two cards.
i mean without prep, rogue would be way more bonkers, dont you think?
The purpose of HoFing cards is what it creates a deck or playstyle that rotations can't change. For example, Ice Block in mage was used for one purpose: the Freeze Mage deck. Every expansion then came a question of "Does freeze mage return?" And ever freeze mage worked the same: Stall the game until an knock out burst combo is found then burst.
Note that it has nothing to do with whether the deck is too strong or unfun: that's what nerfs are for. It's just whether the deck never really goes away or remakes itself into something new.
In comparison mage has fireball which DOES like to go face. But it's existance doesn't force mage to always be looking for a burn deck. Even with fireball, mage is more than happy to take up a Secret Tempo deck, a grindy control deck, or a fast burn deck. Sometimes it uses fireball, sometimes not, but the card existing isn't forcing the same archetype.
Thus Ice Block is HoFed and fireball stays around.
There IS another reason to HoF a card: if it causes designers to be too limited in design space due to the card's abilities. But that is not something players can determine. Whether a card is a bother for designers is up to them, not us.
So the question, what exactly is preparation locking rogue into?
That it lets it do crazy things is a feature, not a bug. It's 'unfair' which is NOT a reason to change anything. You're SUPPOSED to find unfair ways to do things. Mages blasting you from the hand. Paladins constantly healing to full. Warriors killing 3 cards with one of theirs or better. Druids having 10 mana while you have 3. These are FEATURES. So rogue being able to cheat out cheap spells, by itself, isn't a negative element. To be nerf worthy, it has to produce a deck that's far too polarizing or breaks the entire meta.
So what deck is breaking the game of rogue? What deck is so polarizing the meta that it's making it stale?
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Preparation is fine , its good to do unfair things. Dragon's Fury is an unfair card too it deals tons of damage for 5 Mana AoE better than flamestrike that means it already cheats at least 2 Mana or more is like Preparation and so on.
Personally i woulda just prefered Rogue to get Oil card to replace Conceal not a garbage card , Oil was soo fun.
Prep is a curse for the rogue class.
As long this card remain in Standard the majority of spells for rogue will be crap, terrible and insanely overcosted, just look how disgusting is rogue spellstone and compare with hunter, warlock or even druid spellstone and you will see how badly is.
For all Old Gods Blizzard, send this card to
HellHoF and safe rogue class from suffering in the future.Yep, keep your candle lit for Prep and continue to get garbage spells.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
If they HoF the card they will probably print a 2 Mana StealthCycle card : Deal 2 damage to a minion,draw a card if it is Stealthed.
I do not want crappy cards to open in classic packs as epics whatsoever!
I am pretty sure that with no Prep we would see the same mana inefficiency as before - just with no option to Prep.
Tbh, i prefer a safe world with Prep, rather than an uncertain one without it.
this is why i opened this discussion. i know what you mean but you will still need prep to use spells which cant be tutored.
Dont know what they will do to the card(if they will ever do anything). As a wild player HoF doesnt affect me.
Which reminds me. Blade flurry nerfed for class identity which rogue needs to be weak against wide boards. Then again, Druid got Spreading plague...
I see over-costed big spells/super cheap little spells as part of rogues identity. Prep is is the central driver for this theme. Often in favour of nerfs or rotations but not this time.
oh yeah. they printed counterfeit coin and tomb pillager even tho they knew rogue had prep. so i guess its not that limiting?? :))
There is no class identity, Druid is not weak to ST nor AoE boards, Spreading Plague in Standard but Poison Seeds in Wild basically saying you can have a full board of Ancient Ones and just Seeds + Starfall and bye bye board.
Blade Flurry nerf was unfair and killed the card, they shoulda just HoF the card tbh, Blade Flurry needs to be HoFed not Prep because that card is a waste of Rare card spot in Standard after the nerfs !
But if all rogues spells were designed with prep in mind, then they simply can't move it to hof without rebalancing entire rogue card pool?
i agree with this
Well if Prep was HoFed then IF staff wanted to print actually great Spells for Rogue without keeping Track of Prep then it would only make Rogue OP in Wild.
HoF ing the card would only lead to power crept spell cards in Wild more abused with Prep , HoF is generally a bad idea for this card because Wild will suffer in the long term.
There is class identity, but part of the theme of Knights of the Frozen Throne was that all classes are now death knights, and they made the horrible mistake of using that as a reason to break class identity. In nearly all other expansions things have been consistent.
This is complete nonsense. If you already have Prep then it just replaces opening 100 dust with whatever epic they replace it with, which is at worst 100 dust.
Regarding Prep, moving it to the HoF will temporarily hurt the class in standard as it has to live with overcosted spells from the Year of the Raven. BUT in the long run the class will break out of the shackles of the card as it gets properly costed spells to work with. The arguments for HoF-ing Prep are viewing things in a long-time perspective, and after a year the effects of how it warps [damages] the class should have all but gone.
I don't have faith the Prep will be replaced by a at least GOOD/Decent card as part of Classic set after i saw what they did with Ice Block.
Again Prep is not a huge design card limiting one. If it ever was broken in one expansion upping the mana cost of new expansion spells is always the way to balance it in this case.
ohh wild will suffer in the longterm regardless if they HoF prep or not, it's hard to keep track of all effects you print for any expansion and something will eventually break anyways even if it's relativelt stable atm, most games with "expanded" or "Modern" formats, just give up trying to do the impossible and just issue bans, for example in mtg's modern format the expected thing is that one of the players will win at exactly turn 4, so wizards ban anything that allows wins earlier than turn 4 but dont go over every card that allows players to win by turn 4 because it would be a massively daunting task over the thousands of unique cards, this rubs some people the wrong way but is the only thing you can do with thousands of cards and a sane amount of workload.
As for the prep argument, Blizz were the ones that stated that prep was the one card that constrained rogue's design space, it isn't a community's invention, it is a real official statement, so the argument has actual weight.
Prep's biggest problem is its versatility. I can be used in basically any deck and performs well. Prep into Raiding Party is insane as it triggers the Combo and draws you 3 cards for a 2 card 0 Mana investment. While there are cards out there that provide great value for cost, such as Dragon's Fury, they are usually more limited in the decks they can go in. Dragon's Fury forces the player to severely reduce the number of low cost spells in their deck. Hunter Spellstone althoug very powerful can only go into a deck with plenty of secrets. Prep has been part of about every good Rogue deck, with the exception of odd Rogue for obvious reasons. I feel like Prep needs to go to open up some design space for Rogue spells. Honestly, the fact that Raiding Party exists at 3 Mana is hinting at Prep's departure from Standard at rotation. Basically giving people a short window to do very powerful stuff before rotation balances it out. Same goes for Jaina and Rag. I feel like they gave us Rag specifically at this time so we can enjoy this powerful interaction for a brief time before it tthen goes away.
I don#t think they'll ever substantially nerf prep, even if it's just because they would have to rebalance a ton of cards.
Sprint for example is only worth playing because you have access to prep. Then there's new cads like Cannon Barrage, Wanted!, etc. that have will never ever see play at their mana cost without it.
Also...what would those spells even look like without Prep. Sprint wouldn't just be a 4-mana draw 4. That would be absurd. Cannon Barrage won't suddenly just be 3-mana. At best they'd be 1 or 2 mana less, which actively makes them worse than they are right now.
Idk why people think nerfing Prep will somehow get Rogue "better" spells. Prep never "broke" any deck. The only time when Prep ever was a major factor it was during Un'goro with quest Rogue, a deckk that had so many more problems outside of Preparation. Maly Rogue hasn't been a thing for a while (the meme version doesn't count) and Aucitoneer hasn't seen play in almost a year.
Literally most of the reasons people like to mention for nerfing HoFing Prep just aren't real issues anymore. It's not like Team 5 is going to be like: "now that prep is gone let's give Rogue a 6-mana Flamestrike" At best they're giving us 3-4 mana spells that would have cost 1 mana more before.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
You are saying that prep goes into every deck? From my experience it doesn't... tons of the spells seem fair without prep even in the deck.