Why don't you just let players see the deck they're going up against before they accept the match? If it's a deck they judge to be broken, they can just skip it and search for a new opponent. Could even put a chat box in the screen.
Would casual players legitimately care about the lack of a surprise factor?
Just go one step further and allow pre-match class/card bans.
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Honestly a decent fix could be improving matchmaking to heavily weigh on each users card collection before pairing them up. Would be a subtle way of keeping those with less cards from matching against those that have nearly finished collections. In short somebody brand new wouldn't see high tiered lists and would be more apt to match against someone with a collection similar to theirs. Small disclaimer: this wouldn't stop someone if they were to just insta craft a tier 1 deck out of the get go and never make a card again but at that point the person is just handicapping their progress. Otherwise I just suggest people to play ranked because if you are going to face powerful decks you might as well get an end of season reward out of it. Thoughts about matchmaking improvements? Is my idea crap? Open to any and all constructive ideas and opinions.
You spent all your gold/dust on your netdeck and don't have other decent decks to play but need to farm gold
This might be shocking to learn, but you can win games in Casual without netdecking. I regularly maintain around a 50% if not higher winrate with whatever jank deck I've made (with a few exceptions.....see: Salt Thread)
Those who whine about casual mode, are the same ones that whine about anything and everything in the game.
I love the game, praise many of its aspects, and also criticize things that require criticism.
One of those criticisms is the over-representation of Tier 1 & Tier 2 decks in casual.
Still, there really doesn't seem to be a great solution that I've come up with or seen from others, despite the plethora of "Casual = Ladder" type threads (and there are lots of them, all the time). Ultimately, Team 5 is on record stating they never had any intention of making Casual a non-competitive play mode so it's never going to be anything more than it currently is. Sad, but true.
that's depressing and ultimately makes me a bit triggered. If Team 5 isn't going to make the mode non-competitive, then why does the mode exist in the first place... I understand this is the mode where beginners play, but it cannot be like this anymore if THEY want to enjoy their fun too.
Those who netdeck in casual are either terrible players with ladder anxiety that are afraid of losing their 14 rank stars, or just douchebags that want to ruin the other's fun. So there is no solution other than incentives. I am too bored to retype everything so this is what i proposed
I think I was seen it the Nemsy time Fireside Gathering;
When you lose the game your next game you have an advantage maybe this kind of situation can help new players in casual.
But unfortunately people need gold and they need to farm it from casual, for this reason I'm not expecting to see in difference in near future in casual mode. I hope they will change the 3 Win / 10 gold option.
The issue is not what Blizzard intended Casual to be; the issue is the playerbase (at least expressed here on Hearthpwn) is unhappy with what it's turned out to be. The very same argument could have been made back in the "9 deckslots" days. "Well Blizzard never intended there to be more than 9 deckslots. You shouldn't need more than 9 anyways, so just deal with it and quit crying." Instead, Blizzard adapted to the unhappy playerbase. Same thing here.
Here's the thing. If you truly enjoy playing your netdeck, you can just as easily play it on ladder. The same cannot be said for more memey/fun decks. 55% of the time, Casual is the only place you can go to not be completely run over.
This is why I recommend an additional mode be made that doesn't reward anything. Call it "Casual" and call current Casual "Unranked."
Because weaker decks actually allow me to play my meme cards. I don't play Casual to get better at deckbuilding (not anymore). To turn it around on you, do you think that playing your T1 netdeck in casual against meme decks will make you a better player and hone your skills? How are you going to learn how to play against/tech against/mulligan against HealZoo while playing in Casual against my Even Spell Damage Mech Rogue?
I know this might sound weird, but some people actually play the decks they play for fun. Shocking I know. You don't just have to play top tier netdeck, looking to play every turn perfectly, you can play wacky cards to see what they do and what random shenanigans you can pull....not just by trying to win on turn 5.
I'd argue that deciding whether or not giving players more deckslots vs changing an existing mode completely and/or creating a new mode is a topic that is much more complex for Blizzard. They aren't going to just make a decision as soon as the first complainers express their opinions. Plus, there really was no downside for any party in giving everyone more deckslots. With changing casual so that it limits what you can play in it is akin to a HS equivalent of telling WoW players that each expansion they are going to ban the highest performing spec from each class from queuing up for random bgs and instead tell them to go play those specs in rated bgs or 3's/5's arena.
I don't have any opposition for T5 creating a new mode for memes. It is the demands for changing a mode that is working as intended that I oppose. However, as I have mentioned this to you in other threads before creating a new mode wouldn't change much in the long term scheme of things. In a meme-only mode you will still get certain meme decks that are vastly more powerful than other memes, so for those players they will still feel like they are being 'oppressed' by decks that perform more consistently than their deck. For example, Mech Rogue will always have more aggro pressure, burst, and tempo than Mech Priest, especially when it highrolls when cards like Iron Sensei. This would result in a meme like Mech Priest losing to Mech Rogue most of the time. In this vacuum world of meme decks the former meme is 'preventing the latter from having fun'. Seeing as I have a lot of experience with meme decks I could provide more comparisons between less vs more consistent meme decks if you'd like me to further illustrate this point.
You do raise a fair counter point in that a top tier deck player wouldn't get as much experience at playing their deck better should they queue up against a non-tier deck. To be honest, I also find the excuse of tier deck practice in casual to be a weak argument since you often miss in the queue and face a weaker deck some of the times. There are better and more legitimate reasons why the presence of tier decks existing in casual is fine.
I wanted to save the point of meme decks not succeeding and being able to be played on ladder for last because there is evidence that runs contrary to this point, at least in terms of some meme decks. Youtube streamer and consistent high legend player, RDU, won three games in a row at rank 1 legend with a randomized Whizbang deck. Just to reemphasize this point a randomized meme deck played at rank 1 legend beat three different high legend players in a row. This occurrence really blows the argument out of the water that meme decks can't be played for fun and even pull of wins against tier decks on ladder. However, if you'd like more anecdotes I can send you to watch Firebat beating Shudderwock Shaman with a meme Dragon Priest, countless vids of Kibler bullying decks with Recruit Warrior, Kibler and Thijs pulling off many wins with Tess Rogue (pre & post legend status), Hysteria playing gatekeeper at rank 5 wild benchmark and meming all over players, etc, etc. I'm not saying that all meme decks are capable of this, but plenty are in either format. Some memes are just too much of a joke deck, which says more about the deck than it does about the format.
You spent all your gold/dust on your netdeck and don't have other decent decks to play but need to farm gold
This might be shocking to learn, but you can win games in Casual without netdecking. I regularly maintain around a 50% if not higher winrate with whatever jank deck I've made (with a few exceptions.....see: Salt Thread)
Telling one to play against the innkeeper to test a new deck is like assuming that one can learn how to drive after practicing a couple turns in a parking lot. The Innkeeper isn't going to play Odd Paladin or Taunt Druid against you. The Innkeeper isn't going to be doing fancy Hadronox shenanigans you can try to counter. In fact, the presence of netdecks in casual actually helps people who use it to craft counter decks.
As far as your other comment, you can also get places on a unicycle, how practical it is is another story.
P.S. Since you seemed so triggered by my post I wanted to clarify that I myself don't actually play netdecks in casual because after climbing with that deck in ranked every month playing it starts feeling like a chore. However, I have no problem with other people playing netdecks in ranked for reasons stated above.
Play against the Innkeeper then. Or play on a ranked floor where you can't lose rank.
You can do that too :).
This might be shocking to learn, but you can win games in Casual without netdecking. I regularly maintain around a 50% if not higher winrate with whatever jank deck I've made (with a few exceptions.....see: Salt Thread)
Wait, what ? Weren't people unhappy with casual because they can't win there with their fun decks and have to play netdecks to win ? And now you are saying that's not true.
Well, if are winning 50%+ on casual then I don't think there is any problem with casual.
Play against the Innkeeper then. Or play on a ranked floor where you can't lose rank.
You can do that too :).
This might be shocking to learn, but you can win games in Casual without netdecking. I regularly maintain around a 50% if not higher winrate with whatever jank deck I've made (with a few exceptions.....see: Salt Thread)
Wait, what ? Weren't people unhappy with casual because they can't win there with their fun decks and have to play netdecks to win ? And now you are saying that's not true.
Well, if are winning 50%+ on casual then I don't think there is any problem with casual.
45% of games in Casual are tier 1 and 2 netdecks. This is unacceptably high.
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I want to share my opinion about this one. Someone said to remove the Win X Games quests from Daily Quests,i think this is one step to do to reduce the Casual "Needing to win" decks,it might not be a huge step but it would help new players as well since they don't have many cards and thus reduced chances to actually win a game to do their daily quests.
For one i am really hoping Blizzard will remove the Win X Games Quests from the pool because that seems like a smart decision,card bans and other more drastically actions need much more thinking in the long run,but doing just a simple step like removing Quests that demand Wins then i can totally agree Hearthstone would become a lot more "casual" at least figuratively and maybe a bit more literally than it currently is.
TIL If you aren't a high legend streamer, you absolutely have no business winning games in casual.
Got it!
That is your rebuttal to my counter argument? Your concern about casual isn't going to accomplish much if you aren't willing to attempt to discredit my points that are already established with evidence from multiple sources.
While many of my observable examples are from streamers (since realistically the average player, meme or otherwise, does not record their games, even on hsreplay) that does not mean your average Sally/Joe doesn't pull of wins with meme decks on ladder and casual frequently.
Renounce Lock
Menagerie Warden OTK N'Zoth Druid
Ancient Curse Togwaggle Druid
Aviana K'Thun OTK Druid
Aviana Rag OTK Druid
N'Thun Reno Rogue
Big Rogue
Spiteful Mech Mage
Spectral Pillager Reno Rogue
Weasel Priest
Deathspeaker Geist Warlock
Pony/Maly Lock
^ Pick a meme deck and I'll upload countless picks of me winning against tier decks in casual (or on ladder depending on the deck). If you don't want examples from pro players and/or streamers then I'll offer up my own anecdotes as an example from an everyday player if you prefer.
Just because tier decks are generally favored against meme decks that does not mean wins are impossible or so disproportionately unflavored against you that you have a <40% win rate against them in casual, regardless of the tier deck. Some meme decks can hold their own, depending on which tier deck you get matched against. Just don't be taking your 30 1 mana minion deck in casual and expect to have the same results.
TIL If you aren't a high legend streamer, you absolutely have no business winning games in casual.
Got it!
That is your rebuttal to my counter argument? Your concern about casual isn't going to accomplish much if you aren't willing to attempt to discredit my points that are already established with evidence from multiple sources.
While many of my observable examples are from streamers (since realistically the average player, meme or otherwise, does not record their games, even on hsreplay) that does not mean your average Sally/Joe doesn't pull of wins with meme decks on ladder and casual frequently.
Renounce Lock
Menagerie Warden OTK N'Zoth Druid
Ancient Curse Togwaggle Druid
Aviana K'Thun OTK Druid
Aviana Rag OTK Druid
N'Thun Reno Rogue
Big Rogue
Spiteful Mech Mage
Spectral Pillager Reno Rogue
Weasel Priest
Deathspeaker Geist Warlock
Pony/Maly Lock
^ Pick a meme deck and I'll upload countless picks of me winning against tier decks in casual (or on ladder depending on the deck). If you don't want examples from pro players and/or streamers then I'll offer up my own anecdotes as an example from an everyday player if you prefer.
Just because tier decks are generally favored against meme decks that does not mean wins are impossible or so disproportionately unflavored against you that you have a <40% win rate against them in casual. Some meme decks can hold their own, depending on which tier deck you get matched against. Just don't be taking your 30 1 mana minion deck in casual and expect to have the same results.
You're under the delusion that most other casual players are, which is thinking that if you add a meme card or two to a netdeck, it's suddenly not a netdeck. "It's not technically Cubelock, because I run a different 5-drop!" "It's not technically Odd Paladin because I run a meme card in it!" "It's not aggro Mage because it has no Pyroblast!" "It's not netdeck OTK Druid because it doesn't have Wrath in it!"
This still sidesteps basically my entire point: I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AGAINST NETDECKS IN CASUAL.
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45% of games in Casual are tier 1 and 2 netdecks. This is unacceptably high.
55% winrate is great, most people don't have that in Ranked with netdecks.
Who said I win 100% of my games against non netdecks? That's absurd.
Ok since you don't win any games against netdecks and don't win all games against non netdecks, you are still looking at winrate of 52%-53%. Still impressive.
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Just go one step further and allow pre-match class/card bans.
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Honestly a decent fix could be improving matchmaking to heavily weigh on each users card collection before pairing them up. Would be a subtle way of keeping those with less cards from matching against those that have nearly finished collections. In short somebody brand new wouldn't see high tiered lists and would be more apt to match against someone with a collection similar to theirs. Small disclaimer: this wouldn't stop someone if they were to just insta craft a tier 1 deck out of the get go and never make a card again but at that point the person is just handicapping their progress. Otherwise I just suggest people to play ranked because if you are going to face powerful decks you might as well get an end of season reward out of it. Thoughts about matchmaking improvements? Is my idea crap? Open to any and all constructive ideas and opinions.
IMO casual is fine the way it is.
IMO netdecks are fine in casual too, and people who hate on others for it are closed-minded, short-sighted, and perhaps even ignorant.
Here are just a few reasons to netdeck in casual:
Play against the Innkeeper then. Or play on a ranked floor where you can't lose rank.
This might be shocking to learn, but you can win games in Casual without netdecking. I regularly maintain around a 50% if not higher winrate with whatever jank deck I've made (with a few exceptions.....see: Salt Thread)
So, "Reasons to netdeck in Casual: Don't netdeck."
There is no reason for Blizzard to not address this issue, either with options or an entirely new mode.
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Lol, nice one !
I have no problems with casual at all. In casual play node you should be able and you are able to play all decks you want soo...
that's depressing and ultimately makes me a bit triggered. If Team 5 isn't going to make the mode non-competitive, then why does the mode exist in the first place... I understand this is the mode where beginners play, but it cannot be like this anymore if THEY want to enjoy their fun too.
the thread linked in this post is one of the better soultions
I think I was seen it the Nemsy time Fireside Gathering;
When you lose the game your next game you have an advantage maybe this kind of situation can help new players in casual.
But unfortunately people need gold and they need to farm it from casual, for this reason I'm not expecting to see in difference in near future in casual mode. I hope they will change the 3 Win / 10 gold option.
It's currently impossible to win with something that isn't a netdeck in casual. You have to play a netdeck or lose every game.
Tell me this is absolutely fine.
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I'd argue that deciding whether or not giving players more deckslots vs changing an existing mode completely and/or creating a new mode is a topic that is much more complex for Blizzard. They aren't going to just make a decision as soon as the first complainers express their opinions. Plus, there really was no downside for any party in giving everyone more deckslots. With changing casual so that it limits what you can play in it is akin to a HS equivalent of telling WoW players that each expansion they are going to ban the highest performing spec from each class from queuing up for random bgs and instead tell them to go play those specs in rated bgs or 3's/5's arena.
I don't have any opposition for T5 creating a new mode for memes. It is the demands for changing a mode that is working as intended that I oppose. However, as I have mentioned this to you in other threads before creating a new mode wouldn't change much in the long term scheme of things. In a meme-only mode you will still get certain meme decks that are vastly more powerful than other memes, so for those players they will still feel like they are being 'oppressed' by decks that perform more consistently than their deck. For example, Mech Rogue will always have more aggro pressure, burst, and tempo than Mech Priest, especially when it highrolls when cards like Iron Sensei. This would result in a meme like Mech Priest losing to Mech Rogue most of the time. In this vacuum world of meme decks the former meme is 'preventing the latter from having fun'. Seeing as I have a lot of experience with meme decks I could provide more comparisons between less vs more consistent meme decks if you'd like me to further illustrate this point.
You do raise a fair counter point in that a top tier deck player wouldn't get as much experience at playing their deck better should they queue up against a non-tier deck. To be honest, I also find the excuse of tier deck practice in casual to be a weak argument since you often miss in the queue and face a weaker deck some of the times. There are better and more legitimate reasons why the presence of tier decks existing in casual is fine.
I wanted to save the point of meme decks not succeeding and being able to be played on ladder for last because there is evidence that runs contrary to this point, at least in terms of some meme decks. Youtube streamer and consistent high legend player, RDU, won three games in a row at rank 1 legend with a randomized Whizbang deck. Just to reemphasize this point a randomized meme deck played at rank 1 legend beat three different high legend players in a row. This occurrence really blows the argument out of the water that meme decks can't be played for fun and even pull of wins against tier decks on ladder. However, if you'd like more anecdotes I can send you to watch Firebat beating Shudderwock Shaman with a meme Dragon Priest, countless vids of Kibler bullying decks with Recruit Warrior, Kibler and Thijs pulling off many wins with Tess Rogue (pre & post legend status), Hysteria playing gatekeeper at rank 5 wild benchmark and meming all over players, etc, etc. I'm not saying that all meme decks are capable of this, but plenty are in either format. Some memes are just too much of a joke deck, which says more about the deck than it does about the format.
Telling one to play against the innkeeper to test a new deck is like assuming that one can learn how to drive after practicing a couple turns in a parking lot. The Innkeeper isn't going to play Odd Paladin or Taunt Druid against you. The Innkeeper isn't going to be doing fancy Hadronox shenanigans you can try to counter. In fact, the presence of netdecks in casual actually helps people who use it to craft counter decks.
As far as your other comment, you can also get places on a unicycle, how practical it is is another story.
P.S. Since you seemed so triggered by my post I wanted to clarify that I myself don't actually play netdecks in casual because after climbing with that deck in ranked every month playing it starts feeling like a chore. However, I have no problem with other people playing netdecks in ranked for reasons stated above.
TIL If you aren't a high legend streamer, you absolutely have no business winning games in casual.
Got it!
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You can do that too :).
Wait, what ? Weren't people unhappy with casual because they can't win there with their fun decks and have to play netdecks to win ? And now you are saying that's not true.
Well, if are winning 50%+ on casual then I don't think there is any problem with casual.
45% of games in Casual are tier 1 and 2 netdecks. This is unacceptably high.
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I want to share my opinion about this one. Someone said to remove the Win X Games quests from Daily Quests,i think this is one step to do to reduce the Casual "Needing to win" decks,it might not be a huge step but it would help new players as well since they don't have many cards and thus reduced chances to actually win a game to do their daily quests.
For one i am really hoping Blizzard will remove the Win X Games Quests from the pool because that seems like a smart decision,card bans and other more drastically actions need much more thinking in the long run,but doing just a simple step like removing Quests that demand Wins then i can totally agree Hearthstone would become a lot more "casual" at least figuratively and maybe a bit more literally than it currently is.
That is your rebuttal to my counter argument? Your concern about casual isn't going to accomplish much if you aren't willing to attempt to discredit my points that are already established with evidence from multiple sources.
While many of my observable examples are from streamers (since realistically the average player, meme or otherwise, does not record their games, even on hsreplay) that does not mean your average Sally/Joe doesn't pull of wins with meme decks on ladder and casual frequently.
^ Pick a meme deck and I'll upload countless picks of me winning against tier decks in casual (or on ladder depending on the deck). If you don't want examples from pro players and/or streamers then I'll offer up my own anecdotes as an example from an everyday player if you prefer.
Just because tier decks are generally favored against meme decks that does not mean wins are impossible or so disproportionately unflavored against you that you have a <40% win rate against them in casual, regardless of the tier deck. Some meme decks can hold their own, depending on which tier deck you get matched against. Just don't be taking your 30 1 mana minion deck in casual and expect to have the same results.
55% winrate is great, most people don't have that in Ranked with netdecks.
Who said I win 100% of my games against non netdecks? That's absurd.
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You're under the delusion that most other casual players are, which is thinking that if you add a meme card or two to a netdeck, it's suddenly not a netdeck. "It's not technically Cubelock, because I run a different 5-drop!" "It's not technically Odd Paladin because I run a meme card in it!" "It's not aggro Mage because it has no Pyroblast!" "It's not netdeck OTK Druid because it doesn't have Wrath in it!"
This still sidesteps basically my entire point: I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AGAINST NETDECKS IN CASUAL.
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Ok since you don't win any games against netdecks and don't win all games against non netdecks, you are still looking at winrate of 52%-53%. Still impressive.