I don't get the big deal. Did you guys play with dreadsteed and shadowboxer on a daily basis or something? These are cards that saw zero play in popular wild decks before they got nerfed. These nerfs effect less than 1% of the wild playerbase and gives everyone else free dust
Actually yes, I do use & did use Dreadsteed often.
Some people like to actually like to use more than the top 8-10% of cards that get printed.
Dust is meaningless to me if I can't play the game for fun and instead turn the game into a chore that pressures me to play only the most popular decks 95% of the rest of the playerbase is using. At that point I might as well just stop playing and merely watch streamers who could pilot a copy pasta tier deck better than I could.
I feel as if this design decision is extremely dangerous for both formats. They are repeating an already made mistake and restarting a certain chain of events.
1. Blizzard creates an obviously problematic card that causes at least one potentially game breaking combo to be almost instantly apparent.
2. An already weak card(s) is preemptively nerfed so that the combo can be broken without stopping the release of the obviously problematic card.
3. The obviously problematic card is released and (surprise surprise) becomes problematic.
4. The obviously problematic card then has to be nerfed anyway.
5. The card(s) that were caught in the crossfire remain in an unusably nerfed state without redress to those that enjoyed them.
Blizzard is already angering some wild players with a preemptive and ultimately meaningless nerf before the expansion even comes out. Even if the specific combo with Shadowboxer became problematic itself, it would likely be fixed with the almost inevitable nerf to Zilliax. People from both modes will be upset after the expansion release because a super dangerous and retroactively design limiting card was forced out. The originally angry wild players will both be saying, "I told you so," and will still be angry after the nerf. The problematic card risks limiting future designs as well, even in its nerfed state.
Well put.
I have no doubt that you are right. Zillax seems like poorly designed card since it not only has magnetic, but a plethora of stuff as well. Before Zillax was released Shadowboxer & Mechwarper were not problem cards at all, and yet know that it is going to be coming there is a combo that interacts with both mechs.
If you have to consider nerfing two different 2 mana mechs just to release one of your new cards that should tell you that you probably did something wrong when designing said new card.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like having fun and using unique cards as much as the next guy. Back when dreadsteed was standard, I actually built for a friend a lineup with dreadsteed which he used to win a local tournament with (He gave me half of his Blizzard loot!)
It's just that I don't really see dreadsteed as a particularly interesting card to treasure for years and years and to love to the extent of being upset when it gets nuked by a nerf. It seems more like a gimmick to entertain for a day and get bored of the next. There's not really any unique combos I can think of outside of Noggenfogger shenanigans that you can't do with patron or some other card. Shadowboxer OTK (pre-nerf) seems like something you pull off once, screenshot and move on from. Decks, archetypes and cards die every expansion, even in wild. Sometimes through nerfs but usually through powercreep and meta shifts. It's just the natural way of things
Shadowboxer and Dreadsteed in their pre nerfed states were problematic and clearly restricted card design. Sure they are fun and iconic, but you gotta look past that.
Pre-release nerf/fix are always welcome because at last Blizzard this time avoid to let us wait for months in order to see the balancing of a broken combo. Sure, maybe the combo would not have been so strong as it may seems but it's not that this changes are going to broke down any existing deck or powerfull cards: they just nerf/fix some niche situation that in the future coming of BP may be problematic.
Imho it's a better solution than just release everything and then check for months if it is something worth another patch (look a NSW and how long we've been waiting for a nerf).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
You still have the chance to play the card "as is" before the nerf happens, so why does it have to continue being broken after more cards are released to accentuate the potential exploit? It isn't how the card was designed, but a loophole that is causing unintended OTKs.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like having fun and using unique cards as much as the next guy. Back when dreadsteed was standard, I actually built for a friend a lineup with dreadsteed which he used to win a local tournament with (He gave me half of his Blizzard loot!)
It's just that I don't really see dreadsteed as a particularly interesting card to treasure for years and years and to love to the extent of being upset when it gets nuked by a nerf. It seems more like a gimmick to entertain for a day and get bored of the next. There's not really any unique combos I can think of outside of Noggenfogger shenanigans that you can't do with patron or some other card. Shadowboxer OTK (pre-nerf) seems like something you pull off once, screenshot and move on from. Decks, archetypes and cards die every expansion, even in wild. Sometimes through nerfs but usually through powercreep and meta shifts. It's just the natural way of things
The problem isn't with the specific cards in question. The problem is with how bad a mistake this is for the game in both the present and long run, how the fanbase loses even more trust in the Blizzard design team, and that this mistake has already been made before and will likely be made again in the future.
Shadowboxer and Dreadsteed in their pre nerfed states were problematic and clearly restricted card design. Sure they are fun and iconic, but you gotta look past that.
Dreadsteed Was never problematic with anything that came before a card that forced it to be nerfed and then broke the game with another card and now permanently limits design space even after a nerf. Defile was problematic but got pushed through.
Shadowboxer Has never been problematic even with the fact you can already give it lifesteal. It likely wouldn't be problematic even with Zilliax. Zilliax is so problematic it is already seen as part of another potentially game breaking combo and will permanently limit design space but is getting pushed through.
I don't know what you complain about (people always find what to complain about, huh? ziliax + shadowboxer would be so broken.. 2 cards, reno jackson + juggle all your lost hp to your opponent.
The only reason why are you not complaining about Glinda+mechwarper+Zillax is because you are Warlock main. That is kinda hypocritic. At least you will get to try that out and see how powerfull it is (And that combo surely is powerfull. Even a deck like Jade Druid will think that you are compensating something)
Warlocks are getting another insane board flood, Druids have even more ramp for their crazy comboes, Kingsbane Rogue keeps smashing any Control,Paladin is either summoning a ton of Dudes or OTKes you with Murlocs and so on and on. If Priest needs Barnes on turn 4 to combat this bullcrap, then I may slowly agree with Big Priest existing. Fight bullshit with bullshit. Taking the combo before we even could try it out in the game is bad. Same with Deadstreed comboes. I hope they will bring out something to the Priest as a class. And I'm saying that not only because I'm Kabal main, but also because this class feels underwhelming in Wild lately. And I WON'T PLAY BIG PRIEST FOR LADDERING.
Nah I know that exists too and it's terrifying as well.They should nerf mechwarper in one of the following ways:
1)The effect doesn't stack
2) limit "no less than (1)" it would keep his main functionality but avoid broken combos both in constructed and some tavern brawl.
3) "the first mech you play each turn costs (1) less".
I favor the first nerf more, since I think the aggro mechwarper archtype should exist as it isn't problematic and most decks can deal with it, I played mech mage with spiteful (before the nerf) and it was quite a deck. then they nerfed the whole neutral cores and yep the deck sucked but oh well.
I didn't mention the warlock combo in my short comment on this thread because the main topic is Shadowboxer + Zilliax, and not cause I main warlock.
As for wild priest:I don't like big priest as well it either loses hard or wins hard I don't like those kind of decks.
You can play dragon priest it got quite a lot of powerhouse cards like drakonid and the early game curve is quite strong as well as got the combo that was quite strong before rotation with Potion of Madness, Divine Spirit and Inner Fire. it's hard to pilot but should be as effective as ever.
Sorry for false claiming without a proper research about your previous posts and threads. It's kinda immature from me.
Now about Priest. I know that there are 2 deck viable outside of Bg Priest which are Inner Fire Dragon varriations and Reno Control Priests but outside of that it feels really underwhelming compared to other classes. I really do hope that Boomsday Project will bring something for Priest because they got 0 ne strategies with the Witchwood.
Another amazing thought process. Can't you contribute to something with more than one sentence? Why did you come to thread dedicated to Wild just to say that Wild is bullshit? Does it makes you feel special?
What is concerning is that Zillax is getting pushed through despite it being the enabler of two different combos. I have no idea why it makes more sense to nerf two already existing mechs that haven't caused problems for the game as opposed to a new card that has rush, divine shield, etc AND will be able to magnetize to all currently existing mechs and any future mechs that get released (even powerful ones).
It is clear that Zillax is the more design limiting card and it isn't even officially released atm, and yet that is the card that is going untouched atm because it is new. Two cards might get nerfed to release a broken mech.
Wild players: Blizzard doesn't care about Wild, they're never fixing any broken combos, WAAAAAAHA
also Wild players: STOP NERFING STUFF THAT IS OBVIOUSLY BROKEN, WAAAAAH
The same people who complain about card nerfs in Wild are the same people who would throw a fit after a week of that card dominating the Wild Meta.
Sorry, but these people are not wild-players. They are players who simply want to play overpowered decks, not wild itself. A real wild player want simply to play all cards instead of this standard-crap. But that does not mean that we don't need balance-changes.
I am a priest-main, and i also thought that i wanted to play this combo, but i also see that this is very problematic. And so i'm thankful that blizzard nerfed it.
NOT ONLY because of the new legendary, but also because blizzard now might give us a buff that give a minion lifesteal. And that's something i would really like to see. We already have this, but only with a 25% chance.
So in the end: WILD NEEDS TO BE BALANCED TOO. IT'S NOT A CRAPHOLE FOR OVERPOWERED CARDS, IT'S A FORMAT FOR EVERY CARD, NOT ONLY STANDARD!!!
If the meta stay too long stale sure. But right now the wild-meta is not too bad. Big Priest can be very annoying, but it gets so hard wrecked by some decks like Rogue and some other decks that i don't see a nerf yet.
They could just react faster, if the problem occurs. Not like months of giants.
6 mana useless combo to fully heal and do like 10 damage??? Does nothing apart from that and requires 4 cards in total plus healing or hit from a minion? OMG broken! Big priest would be dead by turn 4 omg.
Im glad they do preemptive nerfs, shows they are actually testing things and removing broken interactions instead of reacting halfway thru expansion.
Testing things?
Don't you realize that from now on out every mech that gets printed will have to go through the Zillax testing just to make sure Zillax doesn't make any future mechs 'problematic'? For the very fact that the mech has rush & magnetic it ensures that future mechs have to tip-toe around this one legendary card to avoid combos with it.
Seems like they only tested the existing cards that they wanted to weed out of play as opposed to testing the legendary that is actually the enabler of the two combos we know of so far.
They could just react faster, if the problem occurs. Not like months of giants.
6 mana useless combo to fully heal and do like 10 damage??? Does nothing apart from that and requires 4 cards in total plus healing or hit from a minion? OMG broken! Big priest would be dead by turn 4 omg.
huh? 6 mana what are you talking about?? the problem is the 7 mana combo that fully heal + ping your opponent for the amount you healed -5, so you get yourself low, you play shadowboxer and zilliax you both fully heal and C'Thun the oppossing board all for a 2 card combo that you probably run 2 shadowboxers and you get the effect that requires you to have no duplicates normally.
Actually yes, I do use & did use Dreadsteed often.
Some people like to actually like to use more than the top 8-10% of cards that get printed.
Dust is meaningless to me if I can't play the game for fun and instead turn the game into a chore that pressures me to play only the most popular decks 95% of the rest of the playerbase is using. At that point I might as well just stop playing and merely watch streamers who could pilot a copy pasta tier deck better than I could.
Fun > pitiful amounts of free dust
Well put.
I have no doubt that you are right. Zillax seems like poorly designed card since it not only has magnetic, but a plethora of stuff as well. Before Zillax was released Shadowboxer & Mechwarper were not problem cards at all, and yet know that it is going to be coming there is a combo that interacts with both mechs.
If you have to consider nerfing two different 2 mana mechs just to release one of your new cards that should tell you that you probably did something wrong when designing said new card.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like having fun and using unique cards as much as the next guy. Back when dreadsteed was standard, I actually built for a friend a lineup with dreadsteed which he used to win a local tournament with (He gave me half of his Blizzard loot!)
It's just that I don't really see dreadsteed as a particularly interesting card to treasure for years and years and to love to the extent of being upset when it gets nuked by a nerf. It seems more like a gimmick to entertain for a day and get bored of the next. There's not really any unique combos I can think of outside of Noggenfogger shenanigans that you can't do with patron or some other card. Shadowboxer OTK (pre-nerf) seems like something you pull off once, screenshot and move on from. Decks, archetypes and cards die every expansion, even in wild. Sometimes through nerfs but usually through powercreep and meta shifts. It's just the natural way of things
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
Shadowboxer and Dreadsteed in their pre nerfed states were problematic and clearly restricted card design. Sure they are fun and iconic, but you gotta look past that.
Wild players: Blizzard doesn't care about Wild, they're never fixing any broken combos, WAAAAAAHA
also Wild players: STOP NERFING STUFF THAT IS OBVIOUSLY BROKEN, WAAAAAH
The same people who complain about card nerfs in Wild are the same people who would throw a fit after a week of that card dominating the Wild Meta.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Pre-release nerf/fix are always welcome because at last Blizzard this time avoid to let us wait for months in order to see the balancing of a broken combo. Sure, maybe the combo would not have been so strong as it may seems but it's not that this changes are going to broke down any existing deck or powerfull cards: they just nerf/fix some niche situation that in the future coming of BP may be problematic.
Imho it's a better solution than just release everything and then check for months if it is something worth another patch (look a NSW and how long we've been waiting for a nerf).
For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
You still have the chance to play the card "as is" before the nerf happens, so why does it have to continue being broken after more cards are released to accentuate the potential exploit? It isn't how the card was designed, but a loophole that is causing unintended OTKs.
The problem isn't with the specific cards in question. The problem is with how bad a mistake this is for the game in both the present and long run, how the fanbase loses even more trust in the Blizzard design team, and that this mistake has already been made before and will likely be made again in the future.
Dreadsteed Was never problematic with anything that came before a card that forced it to be nerfed and then broke the game with another card and now permanently limits design space even after a nerf. Defile was problematic but got pushed through.
Shadowboxer Has never been problematic even with the fact you can already give it lifesteal. It likely wouldn't be problematic even with Zilliax. Zilliax is so problematic it is already seen as part of another potentially game breaking combo and will permanently limit design space but is getting pushed through.
They also indirectly nerfed my Al'Akir the Windlord by nerfing Rockbiter Weapon, yet Cold Blood still exists.
Now Al'akir is unplayable, it was my most favorite card since I started the game.
You guys are not alone for being victimized if your favorite cards are nerfed. I know this feeling.
I like elementals and totems.
Nah I know that exists too and it's terrifying as well.They should nerf mechwarper in one of the following ways:
1)The effect doesn't stack
2) limit "no less than (1)" it would keep his main functionality but avoid broken combos both in constructed and some tavern brawl.
3) "the first mech you play each turn costs (1) less".
I favor the first nerf more, since I think the aggro mechwarper archtype should exist as it isn't problematic and most decks can deal with it, I played mech mage with spiteful (before the nerf) and it was quite a deck. then they nerfed the whole neutral cores and yep the deck sucked but oh well.
I didn't mention the warlock combo in my short comment on this thread because the main topic is Shadowboxer + Zilliax, and not cause I main warlock.
-> https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/220289-could-blizzard-not-release-obviously-broken-cards - I am really against printing cards that break the game... and obviously so, dunno why people need to suffer such combos before they get addressed much further the line.. It annoys me the first month and a half of the witchwood was quite the continuation of the previews KnC meta and the release of psychic scream in a razakus priest meta.
As for wild priest:I don't like big priest as well it either loses hard or wins hard I don't like those kind of decks.
You can play dragon priest it got quite a lot of powerhouse cards like drakonid and the early game curve is quite strong as well as got the combo that was quite strong before rotation with Potion of Madness, Divine Spirit and Inner Fire. it's hard to pilot but should be as effective as ever.
@Mercynary: alakir is fully playable ATM..
Wild mode is bullshit,so more nerfs pls.
Sorry for false claiming without a proper research about your previous posts and threads. It's kinda immature from me.
Now about Priest. I know that there are 2 deck viable outside of Bg Priest which are Inner Fire Dragon varriations and Reno Control Priests but outside of that it feels really underwhelming compared to other classes. I really do hope that Boomsday Project will bring something for Priest because they got 0 ne strategies with the Witchwood.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Another amazing thought process. Can't you contribute to something with more than one sentence? Why did you come to thread dedicated to Wild just to say that Wild is bullshit? Does it makes you feel special?
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
What is concerning is that Zillax is getting pushed through despite it being the enabler of two different combos. I have no idea why it makes more sense to nerf two already existing mechs that haven't caused problems for the game as opposed to a new card that has rush, divine shield, etc AND will be able to magnetize to all currently existing mechs and any future mechs that get released (even powerful ones).
It is clear that Zillax is the more design limiting card and it isn't even officially released atm, and yet that is the card that is going untouched atm because it is new. Two cards might get nerfed to release a broken mech.
Sorry, but these people are not wild-players. They are players who simply want to play overpowered decks, not wild itself. A real wild player want simply to play all cards instead of this standard-crap. But that does not mean that we don't need balance-changes.
I am a priest-main, and i also thought that i wanted to play this combo, but i also see that this is very problematic. And so i'm thankful that blizzard nerfed it.
NOT ONLY because of the new legendary, but also because blizzard now might give us a buff that give a minion lifesteal. And that's something i would really like to see. We already have this, but only with a 25% chance.
So in the end: WILD NEEDS TO BE BALANCED TOO. IT'S NOT A CRAPHOLE FOR OVERPOWERED CARDS, IT'S A FORMAT FOR EVERY CARD, NOT ONLY STANDARD!!!
If the meta stay too long stale sure. But right now the wild-meta is not too bad. Big Priest can be very annoying, but it gets so hard wrecked by some decks like Rogue and some other decks that i don't see a nerf yet.
Im glad they do preemptive nerfs, shows they are actually testing things and removing broken interactions instead of reacting halfway thru expansion.
They could just react faster, if the problem occurs. Not like months of giants.
6 mana useless combo to fully heal and do like 10 damage??? Does nothing apart from that and requires 4 cards in total plus healing or hit from a minion? OMG broken! Big priest would be dead by turn 4 omg.
The goal of all life is death.
Testing things?
Don't you realize that from now on out every mech that gets printed will have to go through the Zillax testing just to make sure Zillax doesn't make any future mechs 'problematic'? For the very fact that the mech has rush & magnetic it ensures that future mechs have to tip-toe around this one legendary card to avoid combos with it.
Seems like they only tested the existing cards that they wanted to weed out of play as opposed to testing the legendary that is actually the enabler of the two combos we know of so far.
huh? 6 mana what are you talking about?? the problem is the 7 mana combo that fully heal + ping your opponent for the amount you healed -5, so you get yourself low, you play shadowboxer and zilliax you both fully heal and C'Thun the oppossing board all for a 2 card combo that you probably run 2 shadowboxers and you get the effect that requires you to have no duplicates normally.
people seem to underestimate full heals huh..