I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. Never said Cubelock was Tier 1. I am not saying you can't play any deck you like or that you are "brainless". None of that is in my post. What I have issue with is that 2 classes with very specific builds define every other possible class choice and deck type. "Control" decks are now defined as Cube-Abusing mana cheaters. Paladin rules the aggro game because of 2 cards. C2A and Divine Favour. Spiteful Summoner pulling a Tyrantus on turn 5/6 is not skillful decision. You high-roll the nuts or you get a worse case 12 mana worth of stats. No downside and no risk, just a typical expected linear play. This is why Rogue quest got nerfed, not because it won too much, it defined what decks were viable.
I replied to your post because it was proof of my point. I am not salty, jaded, or suffering from chapped ass. I only hope to see a great game get better.
Also, this discussion is about what needs to be nerfed and what we expect. It's not about you feeling justified playing Tier 1 decks.
I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. Never said Cubelock was Tier 1. I am not saying you can't play any deck you like or that you are "brainless". None of that is in my post. What I have issue with is that 2 classes with very specific builds define every other possible class choice and deck type. "Control" decks are now defined as Cube-Abusing mana cheaters. Paladin rules the aggro game because of 2 cards. C2A and Divine Favour. Spiteful Summoner pulling a Tyrantus on turn 5/6 is not skillful decision. You high-roll the nuts or you get a worse case 12 mana worth of stats. No downside and no risk, just a typical expected linear play. This is why Rogue quest got nerfed, not because it won too much, it defined what decks were viable.
I replied to your post because it was proof of my point. I am not salty, jaded, or suffering from chapped ass. I only hope to see a great game get better.
Also, this discussion is about what needs to be nerfed and what we expect. It's not about you feeling justified playing Tier 1 decks.
That wasn't directed especially to you. That's more like a thing this community does a lot. "I lose a lot against this archetype, so it's OP/brainless".
I agree with everything you said though. But as I said in another post, it would suck to get all those things nerfed. Buffing unpopular/low winrate classes would be a better option IMO.
And what bothers me, is that most of the time (and not only in this thread), the salt always gets to Cubelock. My take on this : so many people play aggro Paladin (an actual "brainless" deck), it has good winrate and is very easy to play. Those people get crushed by Cubelock (a high skill ceiling deck btw). So they're mad at Cubelock,
As I said, people call for nerfs as soon as their favorite deck gets countered by another deck. I'm glad Blizzard usually does not listen to the community concerning game balancing.
They should increase the cost of call to arms and divine favor by one. They should also rotate the rest of the murlocs into HOF. Paladin really should not be 8-9 of the top 10 winrate decks.
I think cubelock needs a nerf since it prevent control decks from existing. I do not agree that Lackey, Dark pact, Voidlord or Cube needs a nerf since they never seem problematic to me. My nerf would be to Doomguard - either make it rush instead of charge or make it Battlecry: Discard 2 cards gain charge. This way the resummoned 7 doomguards wont kill you in one turn.
As annoying as the doomguards are to a slow deck, the lackey pact into voidlord is still a major problem for the game and needs to be fixed. Just because you play control and don't care as much about voidlords doesn't negate the fact that a 9 mana card on turns 5/6 is insane.
I think cubelock needs a nerf since it prevent control decks from existing. I do not agree that Lackey, Dark pact, Voidlord or Cube needs a nerf since they never seem problematic to me. My nerf would be to Doomguard - either make it rush instead of charge or make it Battlecry: Discard 2 cards gain charge. This way the resummoned 7 doomguards wont kill you in one turn.
As annoying as the doomguards are to a slow deck, the lackey pact into voidlord is still a major problem for the game and needs to be fixed. Just because you play control and don't care as much about voidlords doesn't negate the fact that a 9 mana card on turns 5/6 is insane.
Yea well as a control player I don't mind my opponent wasting 2 cards to summon a poorly stated taunt minion - with this I mean 3 damage aint really a treat to a control deck. Have faced a couple of demonlocks on lower ranks which was able to buff the voidlords which then turned problematic fast. I can see the problem in relation to aggro. The game needs aggro players for control players like me to trive.
For all of you going after Dark Pact can i remind you that your change would result in the following card being played instead Sanguine Reveler on the plus side this is also immune to Skulking Geist you can then tech in Sacrificial Pact for the heal after the summoning has happened.
Changing all Charge cards to Rush would solve a lot of issues, we could even un nerf some old cards like force of nature etc .
We all know a set of nerfs is coming during mid-term, it's always been that way. So what about guessing them?
Ofc, we can discuss the guesses, but i will take care to report anything that is not kept quiet and constructive. We can argue without flaming.
Each answer is meant to be divided in 2 parts:
1) what cards do you think will be hit? Please be honest, don't tap into hate only
2) how do you think those cards will be hit?
-----
So for me:
#1 Possessed Lackey: mana cost increased to (6) (it is not just a mana cheat, but also a selective draw cheat. Imo, it would be OP even at (6))
#2 Spiteful Summoner: mana cost to (8). (value would still be there)
#3 Call to Arms: recruit 2 (2) minions. (The card is too dominant and staple, while increasing its mana cost to odd value would probably kill Even Paladin, which is not the point)
#4 Divine Favor: mana cost to (5). (Aggro decks should not be able to have an efficient draw system).
#5 Naga Sea Witch: mana cost increased to (8) (the deck would still be playable, but more vulnerable to burn, as any other combo deck).
-----
All these nerfs should still keep the affected decks as powerful, but more vulnerable to other strategies, namely Midrange variations, without the latter being warped around specific but boring mana cheating strategies.
What do you bet?
Please, keep it easy. I repeat: THIS IS NO SALTY THREAD.
It is meant for discussion about possible nerfs, and above all it is meant to be CONSTRUCTIVE.
After the nerfs kick in, we'll see who was the wisest of us at guessing. :)
Thanks.
In my honest opinion, the values you suggested implies that this is indeed a salt post. As a F2P duelist, these are the most common decks in ladder. What you hate isn't necessary broken or oppressive. Lackey isn't even OP anymore considering thr amount of aggro-decks in the meta.
Do a self check, how the F is 8 mana 5/5 naga a fair card?
How about a 8 mana spiteful summoner where you restrict your deck to 2 high cost spells?
Yes. Yes, you can argue otherwise but i think us common folks can smell salt miles away.
Warlock needs some touches, but not actually that much. I'd say they can heal for far too much with Dark Pact along with Spellstone pretty much negating the drawback of various Life Taps while gaining other benefits as well (pulling a 9 mana drop on turn 5-6, destroying an enemy minion, etc).
The DK hero power changed to 2 damage and 2 healing would be fine, because maybe 3 really is too much, but I dislike the idea of changing the Gul'dan Battlecry. "Summon played demons" makes Skull useless and anti-synergistic. Nobody would play Doomguard from hand and with two Voidlords, even if dropped on 9 and 10, wouldn't make Gul'dan appear until turn 12-13 to get value from one at least. "Different demons" would summon a Voidlord, a Voidwalker, a Doomguard and maybe a Dreadlord. For 10 mana that's far too little.
The Warlock needs the late game swing, value and power spike. The Gul'dan battlecry just does that. The Warlock, saving some Giant and perfect Cubing shenanigans going perfectly and conveniently unanswered, doesn't have much of early and mid game.
For the same reason changing the Gul'dan Battlecry would be bad, that's why nerfs to Call to Arms (reducing the number of minions recruited or increase in mana cost) and Tarim (mana cost increased) are also bad.
Because the Paladin needs the midgame value and power spike. That's its territory. Because it doesn't have later value generation, bomb cards (we are long gone from the days Tirion would scare anyone on turn 8+), it doesn't have inevitability, no huge swings in the late. That's the territory of Gul'dan, Azari, Jaina, Hadronox, etc.
Just like nerfing the Gul'dan Battlecry would make the Warlock extremely weaker in the phase it was supposed to be strong, nerfing CtA and Tarim would make Paladins extremely weaker exactly in the phase they are supposed to be strong, while giving them nothing in return to compensate for their weaknesses in other phases.
Odd Paladin doesn't even need to use CtA and Tarim (and they don't discover it every game either).
Spiteful Summoner could be fairly changed to cost 7 mana considering they don't even burn the spell (and can later cast it for FREE with Archivist) and it's a massive 10 drop on turn 6. Warlock at least needs a combination of two cards (Lackey + Pact) or essentially pass the turn equipping Skull (giving you a chance to destroy it with weapon destruction) and the drop is a 3/9 not a 12/12. Silencing Deathwing doesn't accomplish anything either.
No matter how you think, I probably think that some non-OP, non-related cards will get nerf as well. Just like our beloved Fiery War Axe and Hex. This time I think a Rogue and Priest cars will see the nerf bat lol
We all know a set of nerfs is coming during mid-term, it's always been that way. So what about guessing them?
Ofc, we can discuss the guesses, but i will take care to report anything that is not kept quiet and constructive. We can argue without flaming.
Each answer is meant to be divided in 2 parts:
1) what cards do you think will be hit? Please be honest, don't tap into hate only
2) how do you think those cards will be hit?
-----
So for me:
#1 Possessed Lackey: mana cost increased to (6) (it is not just a mana cheat, but also a selective draw cheat. Imo, it would be OP even at (6))
#2 Spiteful Summoner: mana cost to (8). (value would still be there)
#3 Call to Arms: recruit 2 (2) minions. (The card is too dominant and staple, while increasing its mana cost to odd value would probably kill Even Paladin, which is not the point)
#4 Divine Favor: mana cost to (5). (Aggro decks should not be able to have an efficient draw system).
#5 Naga Sea Witch: mana cost increased to (8) (the deck would still be playable, but more vulnerable to burn, as any other combo deck).
-----
All these nerfs should still keep the affected decks as powerful, but more vulnerable to other strategies, namely Midrange variations, without the latter being warped around specific but boring mana cheating strategies.
What do you bet?
Please, keep it easy. I repeat: THIS IS NO SALTY THREAD.
It is meant for discussion about possible nerfs, and above all it is meant to be CONSTRUCTIVE.
After the nerfs kick in, we'll see who was the wisest of us at guessing. :)
Thanks.
In my honest opinion, the values you suggested implies that this is indeed a salt post. As a F2P duelist, these are the most common decks in ladder. What you hate isn't necessary broken or oppressive. Lackey isn't even OP anymore considering thr amount of aggro-decks in the meta.
Do a self check, how the F is 8 mana 5/5 naga a fair card?
How about a 8 mana spiteful summoner where you restrict your deck to 2 high cost spells?
Yes. Yes, you can argue otherwise but i think us common folks can smell salt miles away.
P. S. I can smell kripp from my basement.
"Us common folk" is just you in the whole thread, sorry.
Besides, i don't see you pointing out about my Pally nerf guesses... Which further proves you are biased.
If you can't contribute, fine, but no need to be toxic.
Meanwhile some ppl already know whats geting nerfed and are opening the heck out of those packs just to stack on duplicates to later dust them for full value. Hint its not from the witchwood set.
Frozen Throne and K&C are the sets with soon to he nerfed cards. So just open packs from those sets.
The month of May will bring a full twist on the meta. Get ready for u guys are in for a ride
It's funny because I remember when Un'Goro was coming out and people were like "Warlock is a dead class", "Warlock is awful Blizzard discard is a terrible archetype" and now they give it a viable archetype: recruit, and people are bitching about it being too powerful. I don't understand why people can't just let classes have their place at the top of the ladder. There are ways to counter and beat Cubelock, it's really not oppressive at all when you look at past decks that just didn't get beaten by anything at all. Cubelock gets beaten by faster decks and struggles to win late game battles versus control if you're able to keep them off the board (within reason) because they end up fatiguing. The main reason midrange decks like Cubelock will always be at the top of the meta is because they are just fast enough to fend off aggro while being fast enough to rush down control. Every single expansion that comes for the next few years will always see a midrange deck at the top of the meta. It's an inevitability.
For my money I'd like to see nerfs to mana cheat cards the most. The way mana works is at the core of the game and being able to reliably cheat out a taunt wall or 16/16 of stats on turn 5-6 totally skews the game. Ramp (i.e. druid) is one thing, it's slow and costs card advantage, but what we have currently are cards that don't restrict your ability to interact with the early board or cost extra cards.
Changing Lackey's deathrattle to summon a random demon (maybe with a small stat boost) is a change I'd like to see, likewise on Skull of the Man'ari (since just nerfing Lackey would just bring Skull back into the game). Spiteful either needs to cost a couple mana more or be made more inconsistent somehow (e.g. summon a minion up to the cost of the revealed spell). Naga just needs changing back to how she was.
Of course nerfing cubelock means nerfing paladin hard as well (else it'd just have full rein). Call to Arms is an obvious candidate as is Sunkeeper Tarim imo. Honestly I really doubt they'd nerf divine favour instead of hall of fame-ing it plus I'm not sure it'd do enough to lower Bakudin's power level. It's hard to say what's needed there but Blessing of might and Argent Protector both seem problematic in the context of that deck.
What'd be really nice would be seeing buffs for struggling classes like shaman, warrior, and hunter (I know, not effing likely). Warrior just needs an actual win condition that's better than the quest, hunter -the aggro class- has no real ability to take the early board currently, and shaman is just a mess.
All that in mind what actually seems likely (based on nerf history) is that they'll lean towards 1 point mana increases and may throw some pretty unexpected choices in there. My expectations are we'll see something along the lines of "Call to Arms now costs 5, Spiteful Summoner now costs 7, Possessed Lackey now costs 6, Stonehill Defender is now a 4 mana 2/4, Defile now costs 3, Sword of Justice now has 1 less durability and/ or 0 attack". They'll likely disregard wild balance and Sea Witch will remain a thing.
I tend to agree here. Carnivorous Cube is THE serious problem. It's completely batcrazy broken in classes that can abuse the deathrattle like druid and warlock. This card NEEDS a SERIOUS nerf! My idea for Carnivorous Cube would be to just add the two minions to your hand instead of directly on the board. Problem solved I think.
As for Spiteful Summoner I don't really like the idea of the card at all from the get go. IMHO it should have a cap of like 4 on the spell it can pull.
As for paladin I think a nerf to Call to Arms would be good enough. I think it should be like 6 mana or something like that. Four is WAY too early to slam 3 minions on the board especially if your opponent isn't just another aggro deck.
It's funny because I remember when Un'Goro was coming out and people were like "Warlock is a dead class", "Warlock is awful Blizzard discard is a terrible archetype" and now they give it a viable archetype: recruit, and people are bitching about it being too powerful. I don't understand why people can't just let classes have their place at the top of the ladder. There are ways to counter and beat Cubelock, it's really not oppressive at all when you look at past decks that just didn't get beaten by anything at all. Cubelock gets beaten by faster decks and struggles to win late game battles versus control if you're able to keep them off the board (within reason) because they end up fatiguing. The main reason midrange decks like Cubelock will always be at the top of the meta is because they are just fast enough to fend off aggro while being fast enough to rush down control. Every single expansion that comes for the next few years will always see a midrange deck at the top of the meta. It's an inevitability.
C'mon dude seriously? Would it be too much to ask for it to actually be balanced? Just because a class needs help doesn't mean we want to to be the only class on ladder because of how OP it now is. They literally gave Warlock every single tool of any class in HS. It's not one mechanic that makes the class a problem it's the fact they have every single solution to every situation that could come up. Mage doesn't have the healing warlock does. Do we need to give mage 3 or 4 heal spells now? #SoMuchStupid
Many, many broken cards need a nerf. In wild, Naga(revert buff) and Barnes(nerf to 6 mana) are the biggest offenders, but i've also seen voidcaller requested to get nerfed to 5 mana. As for standard?
Neutral: Spiteful is the biggest problem, he needs to cost 8 mana. You can also nerf other neutrals that's in most decks by 1 stat. Nerf the cube to 6 mana.
Pally: Divine favor and call to arms need a 2 mana nerf.
Warlock: Many broken cards, but everyone wants lacky to get hit. Can see him costing 6 mana.
Rogue: shadowstep should give 1 mana discount, not 2. Remember pre nerf innervate?
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To MxFragz,
I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. Never said Cubelock was Tier 1. I am not saying you can't play any deck you like or that you are "brainless". None of that is in my post. What I have issue with is that 2 classes with very specific builds define every other possible class choice and deck type. "Control" decks are now defined as Cube-Abusing mana cheaters. Paladin rules the aggro game because of 2 cards. C2A and Divine Favour. Spiteful Summoner pulling a Tyrantus on turn 5/6 is not skillful decision. You high-roll the nuts or you get a worse case 12 mana worth of stats. No downside and no risk, just a typical expected linear play. This is why Rogue quest got nerfed, not because it won too much, it defined what decks were viable.
I replied to your post because it was proof of my point. I am not salty, jaded, or suffering from chapped ass. I only hope to see a great game get better.
Also, this discussion is about what needs to be nerfed and what we expect. It's not about you feeling justified playing Tier 1 decks.
For me, Spiteful Summoner and Naga Sea Witch feel too oppressive and are the cards i am sure will be nerfed in the future.
I suck at Hearthstone.
They should increase the cost of call to arms and divine favor by one. They should also rotate the rest of the murlocs into HOF. Paladin really should not be 8-9 of the top 10 winrate decks.
Yes, quest rogue is still disgusting. Basically insta concede if you are playing any control decks.
I suck at Hearthstone.
For all of you going after Dark Pact can i remind you that your change would result in the following card being played instead Sanguine Reveler on the plus side this is also immune to Skulking Geist you can then tech in Sacrificial Pact for the heal after the summoning has happened.
Changing all Charge cards to Rush would solve a lot of issues, we could even un nerf some old cards like force of nature etc .
Charge has been an issue since launch.
I came here to laugh at you.
Warlock needs some touches, but not actually that much. I'd say they can heal for far too much with Dark Pact along with Spellstone pretty much negating the drawback of various Life Taps while gaining other benefits as well (pulling a 9 mana drop on turn 5-6, destroying an enemy minion, etc).
The DK hero power changed to 2 damage and 2 healing would be fine, because maybe 3 really is too much, but I dislike the idea of changing the Gul'dan Battlecry. "Summon played demons" makes Skull useless and anti-synergistic. Nobody would play Doomguard from hand and with two Voidlords, even if dropped on 9 and 10, wouldn't make Gul'dan appear until turn 12-13 to get value from one at least. "Different demons" would summon a Voidlord, a Voidwalker, a Doomguard and maybe a Dreadlord. For 10 mana that's far too little.
The Warlock needs the late game swing, value and power spike. The Gul'dan battlecry just does that. The Warlock, saving some Giant and perfect Cubing shenanigans going perfectly and conveniently unanswered, doesn't have much of early and mid game.
For the same reason changing the Gul'dan Battlecry would be bad, that's why nerfs to Call to Arms (reducing the number of minions recruited or increase in mana cost) and Tarim (mana cost increased) are also bad.
Because the Paladin needs the midgame value and power spike. That's its territory. Because it doesn't have later value generation, bomb cards (we are long gone from the days Tirion would scare anyone on turn 8+), it doesn't have inevitability, no huge swings in the late. That's the territory of Gul'dan, Azari, Jaina, Hadronox, etc.
Just like nerfing the Gul'dan Battlecry would make the Warlock extremely weaker in the phase it was supposed to be strong, nerfing CtA and Tarim would make Paladins extremely weaker exactly in the phase they are supposed to be strong, while giving them nothing in return to compensate for their weaknesses in other phases.
Odd Paladin doesn't even need to use CtA and Tarim (and they don't discover it every game either).
Spiteful Summoner could be fairly changed to cost 7 mana considering they don't even burn the spell (and can later cast it for FREE with Archivist) and it's a massive 10 drop on turn 6. Warlock at least needs a combination of two cards (Lackey + Pact) or essentially pass the turn equipping Skull (giving you a chance to destroy it with weapon destruction) and the drop is a 3/9 not a 12/12. Silencing Deathwing doesn't accomplish anything either.
Well, we'll see what they'll do.
Someone complaining about the post-nerf version of Naga Sea Witch... o.O
2018 y’all!
No matter how you think, I probably think that some non-OP, non-related cards will get nerf as well. Just like our beloved Fiery War Axe and Hex. This time I think a Rogue and Priest cars will see the nerf bat lol
Divine Favor: draw cards equal to your opponent’s hand and discard non-Paladin cards.
I like the suggestion to have Odd Pally’s power generate a 2/2 instead of two 1/1’s.
Call to Arms should not curve with Sunkeeper Tarim so it should be 6 mana instead of pulling two, 2 and 1 mana cost minions.
Meanwhile some ppl already know whats geting nerfed and are opening the heck out of those packs just to stack on duplicates to later dust them for full value. Hint its not from the witchwood set.
Frozen Throne and K&C are the sets with soon to he nerfed cards. So just open packs from those sets.
The month of May will bring a full twist on the meta. Get ready for u guys are in for a ride
It's funny because I remember when Un'Goro was coming out and people were like "Warlock is a dead class", "Warlock is awful Blizzard discard is a terrible archetype" and now they give it a viable archetype: recruit, and people are bitching about it being too powerful. I don't understand why people can't just let classes have their place at the top of the ladder. There are ways to counter and beat Cubelock, it's really not oppressive at all when you look at past decks that just didn't get beaten by anything at all. Cubelock gets beaten by faster decks and struggles to win late game battles versus control if you're able to keep them off the board (within reason) because they end up fatiguing. The main reason midrange decks like Cubelock will always be at the top of the meta is because they are just fast enough to fend off aggro while being fast enough to rush down control. Every single expansion that comes for the next few years will always see a midrange deck at the top of the meta. It's an inevitability.
Many, many broken cards need a nerf. In wild, Naga(revert buff) and Barnes(nerf to 6 mana) are the biggest offenders, but i've also seen voidcaller requested to get nerfed to 5 mana. As for standard?
Neutral: Spiteful is the biggest problem, he needs to cost 8 mana. You can also nerf other neutrals that's in most decks by 1 stat. Nerf the cube to 6 mana.
Pally: Divine favor and call to arms need a 2 mana nerf.
Warlock: Many broken cards, but everyone wants lacky to get hit. Can see him costing 6 mana.
Rogue: shadowstep should give 1 mana discount, not 2. Remember pre nerf innervate?