It may seem like an obvious "Duh, of course they do bro!" type of question, but humor me for a moment.
Undertaker Hunter was a powerful hyper aggressive deck back in the day & due to the powerful snowball effect of Undertaker, both in terms of early pressure & difficulty of being removed early on with little mana available to players to make any counter-plays, the card was nerfed. However, in the past few expansions we had pirate warrior that was more or less the same type of hyper aggressive deck that resulted only in STB getting nerfed. The only difference between the two decks was that pirate warrior actually was faster than Undertaker Hunter in many regards, and PW seemed to have wider boards than hunter.
Ignoring the philosophy that T5 doesn't buff cards, why is Undertaker still nerfed instead of rolling the nerf back when a new aggro deck that mimicked Undertaker Hunter wasn't completely dismantled like Undertaker Hunter was?
A similar comparison can be made between Warsong Commander in the old Grim Patron Warrior, and Raza/Anduin in Reno/Razakus Priest. Both were/are very powerful combo decks that could dish out massive amounts of face damage, generally ignoring taunts and high amounts of armor. The difference was that one was a OTK and the other was a lethal combo over a few turns (or two turns with Velen). Two similar types of decks, as far as win conditions go, yet only the older of the two decks was nerfed and dismantled.
If a deck of a similar deadly potent win condition as Grim Patron is allowed to be played then doesn't it make sense to roll back the nerf to Warsong Commander? Why keep one nerfed and one un-nerfed?
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Thoughts? I know that this is an unpopular opinion, but I am a fan of preserving all types of decks, whether I love or hate them, and it just rubs me the wrong way to know the reasons why old cards were nerfed, but when power creep more or less introduces those types of decks in new metas those cards are left alone while the old cards are kept unplayable?
Should these cards be un-nerfed to be more consistent with the power level of cards we have now? Are there other nerfed cards that you think should just be rolled back to their original versions?
Undertaker was too easy to snowball and could win the game as early as turn 1, there's space for snowball cards in a card game, but they absolutely and definitely shouldn't be in the 1 mana slot. Warsong is different, charge shouldn't even had existed in this game in the first place because there are no instants, so yeaaah, Warsong was rightfully nerfed.
Prenerfed undertaker would be too powerful now still, and even if warsong commander would be ok now it would still be the most limiting card in terms of design space
Undertaker was too easy to snowball and could win the game as early as turn 1, there's space for snowball cards in a card game, but they absolutely and definitely shouldn't be in the 1 mana slot. Warsong is different, charge shouldn't even had existed in this game in the first place because there are no instants, so yeaaah, Warsong was rightfully nerfed.
I get what you're saying, but we already have things like charge minions in the game that sometimes cause problems, we already have OTKs (some of which are competitive), and we already have things like Mana Wyrms & Tunnel Troggs which are allowed to exist in the game without being nerfed. So why should Undertaker & Warsong Commander stay nerfed?
It just seems a little silly to say that hunters can't have snowbally threatening 1 mana minions, but mages & shamans can, or that it is bad for warriors to have a deadly OTK that required more cards than things like Velen (and required more fast mental math to calculate & not miss lethal), but then classes like priest get to have a strong OTK.
The need for consistency within me wants to say either let every class have their original broken tools/decks or don't allow any class to have them. The inconsistency is killing me.
Prenerfed undertaker would be too powerful now still, and even if warsong commander would be ok now it would still be the most limiting card in terms of design space
Would it still be as powerful without 2/1 leper gnomes to add to the powerful aggro rush in the early game? The extra attack from the gnomes and the additional 2 damage to face considerably added to the power of the deck when combined with Undertaker, at least that was my experience when laddering with it back in the day.
I'd kinda like to see a tavern brawl or something where all cards were returned to their pre-nerf state. It would be fun to experiment with pre-nerf Patron Warrior and pre-nerf Hundertaker. Especially since I came around after they had been nerfed. How well would they stand against the modern decks. Who would win: Hundertaker or Patron Warrior? Patron Warrior or Tempo Rogue. Tempo Rogue or Quest Rogue?
-It only gives charge to 3- minions, and if a minion gains more attack than that it loses the charge. That way we would avoid giants Frothings smashing you.
-The Charge mechanic changes to only be able to attack minions in the first turn.
That said, they should definitively unnerf Force of Nature in my opinion. The actual card is so pathetic now, and it wouldn't be as potent as in the past thanks to innervate's nerf.
That said, they should definitively unnerf Force of Nature in my opinion. The actual card is so pathetic now, and it wouldn't be as potent as in the past thanks to innervate's nerf.
Can we please not? It was an utterly toxic and broken combo. Tho, I always was more in favor of a Savage Roar nerf.
That said, they should definitively unnerf Force of Nature in my opinion. The actual card is so pathetic now, and it wouldn't be as potent as in the past thanks to innervate's nerf.
Can we please not? It was an utterly toxic and broken combo. Tho, I always was more in favor of a Savage Roar nerf.
How is a 14 damage combo broken in a meta where the 2 main combos are 28 damage (Razakus) and infinite (Exodia) ? Especially when, unlike the mentioned combos, it is dependant on taunt ?
How is a 14 damage combo broken in a meta where the 2 main combos are 28 damage (Razakus) and infinite (Exodia) ? Especially when, unlike the mentioned combos, it is dependant on taunt ?
Exodia requires what, 8 fucking cards? Raza requires also 8 cards? That combo does 14 from an empty board for 2. Also, it's not just a "14 damage combo", it spirals out of control and forces you to never leave any minion up or face instant death.
How is a 14 damage combo broken in a meta where the 2 main combos are 28 damage (Razakus) and infinite (Exodia) ? Especially when, unlike the mentioned combos, it is dependant on taunt ?
Exodia requires what, 8 fucking cards? Raza requires also 8 cards? That combo does 14 from an empty board for 2. Also, it's not just a "14 damage combo", it spirals out of control and forces you to never leave any minion up or face instant death.
Mages do 13 from hand with 2 fireballs and a ping to face. Couldn't we use the same reasoning for mages being almost as bad as the savage roar fon combo? Any additional minions mages would have up on the board could almost measure up to extra damage produced by savage roar buffed druid minions (assuming that any additional minions mages would have weren't weenies of course).
This is sort of what I'm getting at by readdressing cards like Undertaker & Warsong Commander. We have situations nowadays that can reproduce similar types of powerful plays, yet those current cards are not nerfed and the old ones are.
Now, I don't think Blizzard will ever realistically roll back these nerfs, and I am aware that Blizzard is popular for being inconsistent for how they address various balance issues and other problems in their games, but it is something I would like to see change in the game if I had a dream bucket list for HS.
Mages do 13 from hand with 2 fireballs and a ping to face. Couldn't we use the same reasoning for mages being almost as bad as the savage roar fon combo? Any additional minions mages would have up on the board could almost measure up to extra damage produced by savage roar buffed druid minions (assuming that any additional minions mages would have weren't weenies of course).
This is sort of what I'm getting at by readdressing cards like Undertaker & Warsong Commander. We have situations nowadays that can reproduce similar types of powerful plays, yet those current cards are not nerfed and the old ones are.
Now, I don't think Blizzard will ever realistically roll back these nerfs, and I am aware that Blizzard is popular for being inconsistent for how they address various balance issues and other problems in their games, but it is something I would like to see change in the game if I had a dream bucket list for HS.
That's 13 damage hard cap and costs 1 more mana, while also preventing you to use them for removal. Savage Roar gives an additional 2 for every minion you control. And you can have 2 each in your deck, making it much more likely to draw into.
In this meta the combo would be even more broken. Hell Savage Roar sees play. Living Mana Sees play. FON would be in every deck, because with all the swarm and buff shit druid has, you'll always have lethal opportunities.
The nerfs are sometimes too much, but I'd rather see them nerfed and unplayable, than being the shit-show they were before.
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It may seem like an obvious "Duh, of course they do bro!" type of question, but humor me for a moment.
Undertaker Hunter was a powerful hyper aggressive deck back in the day & due to the powerful snowball effect of Undertaker, both in terms of early pressure & difficulty of being removed early on with little mana available to players to make any counter-plays, the card was nerfed. However, in the past few expansions we had pirate warrior that was more or less the same type of hyper aggressive deck that resulted only in STB getting nerfed. The only difference between the two decks was that pirate warrior actually was faster than Undertaker Hunter in many regards, and PW seemed to have wider boards than hunter.
Ignoring the philosophy that T5 doesn't buff cards, why is Undertaker still nerfed instead of rolling the nerf back when a new aggro deck that mimicked Undertaker Hunter wasn't completely dismantled like Undertaker Hunter was?
A similar comparison can be made between Warsong Commander in the old Grim Patron Warrior, and Raza/Anduin in Reno/Razakus Priest. Both were/are very powerful combo decks that could dish out massive amounts of face damage, generally ignoring taunts and high amounts of armor. The difference was that one was a OTK and the other was a lethal combo over a few turns (or two turns with Velen). Two similar types of decks, as far as win conditions go, yet only the older of the two decks was nerfed and dismantled.
If a deck of a similar deadly potent win condition as Grim Patron is allowed to be played then doesn't it make sense to roll back the nerf to Warsong Commander? Why keep one nerfed and one un-nerfed?
****
Thoughts? I know that this is an unpopular opinion, but I am a fan of preserving all types of decks, whether I love or hate them, and it just rubs me the wrong way to know the reasons why old cards were nerfed, but when power creep more or less introduces those types of decks in new metas those cards are left alone while the old cards are kept unplayable?
Should these cards be un-nerfed to be more consistent with the power level of cards we have now? Are there other nerfed cards that you think should just be rolled back to their original versions?
Yes. Maybe nerfed differently, but their original versions were too snowbally.
Undertaker was too easy to snowball and could win the game as early as turn 1, there's space for snowball cards in a card game, but they absolutely and definitely shouldn't be in the 1 mana slot. Warsong is different, charge shouldn't even had existed in this game in the first place because there are no instants, so yeaaah, Warsong was rightfully nerfed.
Prenerfed undertaker would be too powerful now still, and even if warsong commander would be ok now it would still be the most limiting card in terms of design space
I dunno.
I'd kinda like to see a tavern brawl or something where all cards were returned to their pre-nerf state. It would be fun to experiment with pre-nerf Patron Warrior and pre-nerf Hundertaker. Especially since I came around after they had been nerfed. How well would they stand against the modern decks. Who would win: Hundertaker or Patron Warrior? Patron Warrior or Tempo Rogue. Tempo Rogue or Quest Rogue?
This is the kinda shit that would be cool.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Pirate warrior was nerfed 3x actually. First they nerfed STB, then Finley rotated out, then they nerfed war axe.
Warsong must never be unnerfed.
The only ways Warsong would be unnerfed is if :
-It only gives charge to 3- minions, and if a minion gains more attack than that it loses the charge. That way we would avoid giants Frothings smashing you.
-The Charge mechanic changes to only be able to attack minions in the first turn.
That said, they should definitively unnerf Force of Nature in my opinion. The actual card is so pathetic now, and it wouldn't be as potent as in the past thanks to innervate's nerf.