I was going through some old posts the other day (super bored) and laughed at the number of cards people insisted needed to be nerfed this format. Among others, these cries have included:
It's actually a testament to the variety in the expansion that so many people take issue with so many cards in so many classes and decks. Whether or not that much variety is good for ladder is a different conversation, but it's certainly made watching tournaments more fun.
Oh, I don't. I just saw how Token/Evolve Shaman is basically dominating ladder play in terms of winrate at almost every rank, and I wondered how long before someone decided to complain...since people complain about EVERYTHING that they lose to.
Oh, I don't. I just saw how Token/Evolve Shaman is basically dominating ladder play in terms of winrate at almost every rank, and I wondered how long before someone decided to complain...since people complain about EVERYTHING that they lose to.
How long until people make posts complaining about your post complaining about people complaining?
Oh, I don't. I just saw how Token/Evolve Shaman is basically dominating ladder play in terms of winrate at almost every rank, and I wondered how long before someone decided to complain...since people complain about EVERYTHING that they lose to.
How long until people make posts complaining about your post complaining about people complaining?
Complaining about the complainers, nice thread. Is your point that you want these cards nerfed and so which ones and why? Or is it a greater thread concerning these cards posing a problem in the current meta? If so, how? Are these "cries" justified or not? if so or not. What is your reasoning? Question? How are players on this site crying for nurfs make tournament watching more enjoyable? Your statement is more suitable for the salt thread I believe, if your aren't going to elaborate.
Hmm it's only natural to complain about stuff that you lose to..
I assume that by "natural," you mean "engendered by unexamined base urges rather than logic or honest reflection."
It's fine to be annoyed, and normal to want to complain, but it's better to try to envision all sides of the situation before committing one's unrefined emotional responses to public writing.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I actually think any request for nerfing the Quests has at least some merit to it.
Not because they are OP or broken i don't actually think thats the case, not even with The Caverns Below but because of how strangely specific they are in the way they work and how that results in a direct limitation of design space for any future expansion as long as these cards are legal in standard.
The specificity is what made them work though, if they didn't start in your hand they would be very inconsistent. Could you complete a Quest that showed up in the bottom half of your deck? If they were balanced so that they could be completed if drawn late, if you instead drew it early or had it in your starting hand via the mulligan, then completing it would be easy.
I do agree that they will have an impact on the design space, most new archetypes do I believe.
They basically can not make really good neutral taunt minions for the next 2 years because of the risk of Taunt Warrior running wild.
Is that an unintended Wild format pun? There are a significant number of good neutral taunts already in Wild such as Deathlord and Sludge Belcher. An argument could be made that Unstable Ghoul is also good for warrior with its damaged related effects. There is also a zero cost taunt in Wild such as Target Dummy. Its possible Taunt Warrior could get stronger, but other decks would too.
They can't create any more bounce effects because that would make Quest Rogue even more reliable and so on.
More bounce wouldn't make Crystal Rogue more reliable in my opinion, as I think the best balance is what they have right now, but more 'dense' cards like Igneous Elemental might improve the consistency, though probably not the speed. In Wild you could run double Igneous Elemental with Unearthed Raptor and Baron Rivendare, but it isn't faster than what the current lists are running. While you do complete the quest with 'less' cards, you still need to play the generated cards, so it works out to be about the same imo.
I was going through some old posts the other day (super bored) and laughed at the number of cards people insisted needed to be nerfed this format. Among others, these cries have included:
It's actually a testament to the variety in the expansion that so many people take issue with so many cards in so many classes and decks. Whether or not that much variety is good for ladder is a different conversation, but it's certainly made watching tournaments more fun.
Of those 3 cards, Evolve is the only problem, not that it is a great cards, but it's a random effect that can win or lose games and therefore should be banned from Ranked/Tournament play, other than that the card is fine.
(Same goes for Primordial Glyth and Fire Plume's Heart, with Sulfuras Hero Power being nearly always a 50/50 decision, that doesn't really decide who played better, rather who was luckier in a coin flip. None of this crap should be allowed in Competitive play, but it's Hearthstone, anything goes...)
Some rng is good for the game played the lat brawl which had 0 rng effects was really bored TBH RNG is good sometimes the rag hero power is alright,rag was always an alright card jsut too consistantly good so you always wanted him as late game card.
it has some skill to it, on reducing odds and trying to see what it hits first.
evolve isn't that bad really.. it has a clear purpose that if your board has high cost minions it should upgrade them overall the deegree of upgrade well it's fine I think it was never really problematic.
Glyph has discover which makes the choice at least a bit skill based, the problem of the card is that it has no downside of being played it's a 0 mana discover effect it's too good specially in mage.
in constructed is ok in arenna... should be banned.
I would be surprised to see Glyph, the quests, or any other Ungoro card nerfed before the next expansion. Blizzard may make odd choices, but I don't think they'd want to make people feel that the cards they just bought and/or crafted are immediately falling in value.
I played around with an Evolve shaman for a bit, but found it a bit too inconsistent for my taste. The dopplegangster/ Evolve combo could be deadly, or it could give you a Moat Lurker and a Big-Time Racketeer
Some rng is good for the game played the lat brawl which had 0 rng effects was really bored TBH RNG is good sometimes the rag hero power is alright,rag was always an alright card jsut too consistantly good so you always wanted him as late game card.
it has some skill to it, on reducing odds and trying to see what it hits first.
evolve isn't that bad really.. it has a clear purpose that if your board has high cost minions it should upgrade them overall the deegree of upgrade well it's fine I think it was never really problematic.
Glyph has discover which makes the choice at least a bit skill based, the problem of the card is that it has no downside of being played it's a 0 mana discover effect it's too good specially in mage.
in constructed is ok in arenna... should be banned.
The way you speak it makes me think you have no tournament experience. Anyone with tournament experience who has been kicked out or screwed out of a game due to purely RNG, like a Ragnaros 50/50 or something like that, will tell you how bad RNG is for Competitive play. Don't get me wrong, I love playing with RNG cards in Casual mode, but when it comes to ranked or tournament play, all RNG cards should be banned.
I don't play arena so I can't talk about that.
It's a CCG. There is a fundamental and inescapable element of RNG.
The problem is that HS is so basic that the game basically becomes entirely draw dependent without some of the RNG effects that people hate.
- You are provided 1 card each turn - You are provided +1 mana every turn until 10 - You get all of your mana back each turn - There is only 1 way to disrupt any of the above (Time Warp) - You have nearly complete agency over your own turn - You have nearly complete agency over how to direct attacks
Because so much is given, HS needs these other elements in order to make the game compelling. Sometimes this goes too far (pre-nerf Yogg for example). But there aren't too many effects right now that I think are unforgivable examples of RNG. You could maybe make the case for Die Insect, but when a hero power designed to end the game ends the game on a 50/50, I actually don't think that is too bad.
The problem is that HS is so basic that the game basically becomes entirely draw dependent without some of the RNG effects that people hate.
- You are provided 1 card each turn - You are provided +1 mana every turn until 10 - You get all of your mana back each turn - You have nearly complete agency over your own turn - You have nearly complete agency over how to direct attacks
Because so much is given, HS needs these other elements in order to make the game compelling. Sometimes this goes too far (pre-nerf Yogg for example). But there aren't too many effects right now that I think are unforgivable examples of RNG. You could maybe make the case for Die Insect, but when a hero power designed to end the game ends the game on a 50/50, I actually don't think that is too bad.
I will ask you, how would you feel, if you were playing a Hearthstone match, the winner gets 50.000$ and a spot at a World Championship, and you lost the game to a coin flip? A 50/50? It is absolute BULLSH*T. It just makes no sense at all.
I assume we're talking about Fr0zen now. Losing will always suck. But this happens in games like poker all the time. Frankly, losing to a coinflip is far more likely than losing to a 10% out on the river.
Further, reducing your loss to a 50/50 in the late game completely (and incorrectly) ignores all of the game play decisions which led to that point. How many times do we hear the phrase "play to your outs." Or hell, it even ignores all of the decision made about your line-up leading up to the tournament.
This sounds trite, but if you can't handle losing to certain aspects of the game you're playing, maybe you should play a different game.
And I'm not sure where you're going with the aggro thing. IIRC, control line-ups made up half of the EU top 8, and it won the NA prelims.
Primordial Glyph actually deserves a nerf. Unstable Portal on steroids. Actually the card shouldn't exist, at least not now, when there's so many discover effects floating around in standard.
I absolutely agree with Kripp on his assessment, he does get a lot of bad rep for his hilarious salt compilations on youtube, but he has a point about how we're shifting towards too much RNG again, just like back in GvG, maybe even more extreme than back then.
Sorry - that last line wasn't directed at you, personally. I meant the universal you.
As for the rest, I suppose we can agree to disagree. We can both point to examples supporting our points because HS provides a lot of examples for us to use.
How long until we start hearing nerf cries for things like Evolve, Bloodlust, and Primalfin Totem?
I was going through some old posts the other day (super bored) and laughed at the number of cards people insisted needed to be nerfed this format. Among others, these cries have included:
- Any card in Wild
- Any burn card in Mage
- Fire Plume's Heart
- Primordial Glyph
- The Caverns Below (there may be some actual validity to this one...)
- Murloc Warleader
It's actually a testament to the variety in the expansion that so many people take issue with so many cards in so many classes and decks. Whether or not that much variety is good for ladder is a different conversation, but it's certainly made watching tournaments more fun.
Why do you think those cards need nerfing?
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Oh, I don't. I just saw how Token/Evolve Shaman is basically dominating ladder play in terms of winrate at almost every rank, and I wondered how long before someone decided to complain...since people complain about EVERYTHING that they lose to.
Hmm it's only natural to complain about stuff that you lose to..
if you couldn't complain what's the point of this forum huh? it's up for disscussion.
The only cards that I agree need nerfing is primodial glyph(power level too high, no braininer choice in any mage deck) and caverns(uninteractivity)
Complaining about the complainers, nice thread. Is your point that you want these cards nerfed and so which ones and why? Or is it a greater thread concerning these cards posing a problem in the current meta? If so, how? Are these "cries" justified or not? if so or not. What is your reasoning? Question? How are players on this site crying for nurfs make tournament watching more enjoyable? Your statement is more suitable for the salt thread I believe, if your aren't going to elaborate.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
The specificity is what made them work though, if they didn't start in your hand they would be very inconsistent. Could you complete a Quest that showed up in the bottom half of your deck? If they were balanced so that they could be completed if drawn late, if you instead drew it early or had it in your starting hand via the mulligan, then completing it would be easy.
I do agree that they will have an impact on the design space, most new archetypes do I believe.
Is that an unintended Wild format pun? There are a significant number of good neutral taunts already in Wild such as Deathlord and Sludge Belcher. An argument could be made that Unstable Ghoul is also good for warrior with its damaged related effects. There is also a zero cost taunt in Wild such as Target Dummy. Its possible Taunt Warrior could get stronger, but other decks would too.
More bounce wouldn't make Crystal Rogue more reliable in my opinion, as I think the best balance is what they have right now, but more 'dense' cards like Igneous Elemental might improve the consistency, though probably not the speed. In Wild you could run double Igneous Elemental with Unearthed Raptor and Baron Rivendare, but it isn't faster than what the current lists are running. While you do complete the quest with 'less' cards, you still need to play the generated cards, so it works out to be about the same imo.
I would be surprised to see Glyph, the quests, or any other Ungoro card nerfed before the next expansion. Blizzard may make odd choices, but I don't think they'd want to make people feel that the cards they just bought and/or crafted are immediately falling in value.
I played around with an Evolve shaman for a bit, but found it a bit too inconsistent for my taste. The dopplegangster/ Evolve combo could be deadly, or it could give you a Moat Lurker and a Big-Time Racketeer
The problem is that HS is so basic that the game basically becomes entirely draw dependent without some of the RNG effects that people hate.
- You are provided 1 card each turn
- You are provided +1 mana every turn until 10
- You get all of your mana back each turn
- There is only 1 way to disrupt any of the above (Time Warp)
- You have nearly complete agency over your own turn
- You have nearly complete agency over how to direct attacks
Because so much is given, HS needs these other elements in order to make the game compelling. Sometimes this goes too far (pre-nerf Yogg for example). But there aren't too many effects right now that I think are unforgivable examples of RNG. You could maybe make the case for Die Insect, but when a hero power designed to end the game ends the game on a 50/50, I actually don't think that is too bad.
This sounds trite, but if you can't handle losing to certain aspects of the game you're playing, maybe you should play a different game.
Primordial Glyph actually deserves a nerf. Unstable Portal on steroids. Actually the card shouldn't exist, at least not now, when there's so many discover effects floating around in standard.
I absolutely agree with Kripp on his assessment, he does get a lot of bad rep for his hilarious salt compilations on youtube, but he has a point about how we're shifting towards too much RNG again, just like back in GvG, maybe even more extreme than back then.
Sorry - that last line wasn't directed at you, personally. I meant the universal you.
As for the rest, I suppose we can agree to disagree. We can both point to examples supporting our points because HS provides a lot of examples for us to use.
Evolve and Primalfin Totem suck big time LMAO