Hi guys i want your opinion about card draw in tcg or ccg (like hs).
I have played different types of card games and i have been thinking if the card draw mechanics are fair. For example i was playing zoolock and managed to get my oponent to 3 life. He cleara my board and i had no cards left in my hand. When it was my turn i got from topdeck a soulfire and won the game. My question is did i really deserve to win? Is it fair?
In the past i have played urban rivals. It had some randomness before the match started but when it started you knew all the resources you have. You also knew the resources your opponent have but that is not the point i want to discuss here. You knew exactly with what you are dealing. I think that a card game has a draw mechanics mess with your ability to plan things. It makes the game less skill based. UR consist of four rounds. Once i played against a top 50 player. On turn one he won the match. He played in such a way that it didnt matter what i did on the other three rounds he had the victory guaranted. I was crushed but it felt nice because he really played better than me.
I want to say that i am not doing publicity of that game. I do not recomend you to start playing it. It has a complex economy and it will be almost imposible for a new player to start playing it. There are also few players left so it will be boring.
The door to other games is there -----> really you are complaining about card draw in a CARD game.... making it kind of clear that you should be either playing other games like Parcheesi or just focusing on your job/studies and finding the cure for some whatever african sickness
edit: downing booze is also another pass time not reliant on rng.
There are some games for example urban rivals that are tcg and doesnt have card draw.
Anyway. It is a discusion post, there is no need for aggresion.
I have kind of a problem with top decks. It feels that i didnt deserve to win or lose because it was just rng. What would happen if when you draw one card you see which is the next card that you will top deck? That way both players have more info to plan their play and it does not feel bad when you top deck the card you need. This way when you win you really deserve it.
The luck of topdecks is more about how many cards you have in hand.
If you have 9 cards in hand, and draw the one you need -- it's not lucky. You were unlucky that the card you got wasn't among the 9 other cards in your hand.
Topdecks are disgusting only when someone's hand is empty, and that person draw an answer or win condition, from among a heap of cards that don't do anything.
In a similar vein, the less cards that are left in a person's deck, the less annoying it becomes when he draws his win condition: He was unlucky it wasn't in his top 15, very unlucky it wasn't in his top 20 and bloody unluck he had to draw over 25 cards for it.
The pinnacle of topdickery is vomiting out your entire hand by turn 5, and topdecking Leeroy for exact lethal from an empty board.
The only thing hearthstone doesn't have are tutors, or the card made to get a specific card in your deck. Most of the reason is to keep combo decks in check, but the backlash means certain decks require extreme luck to function correctly. If you look at mtg's older formats, tutors are very important, as they can fetch combo pieces and often just win you the game. I think top deck victories are inevitable in any tcg or ccg, so I have no issue. You just have to avoid getting mad when you are unlucky if you want to climb
The thing is that im not saying this from a bad loser point of view. Im saying it from a (maybe bad) winner. Today i played a lot of zoolock and i won lots of matches by topdecking soulfire or doomguard. Imagine this: all the match we where even. Struggling for the board. He finally manage to take it away from me and i topdeck lethal. Whats the point of winning that way? That should be a draw or a lose because he stabilized.
What i like from tcg is the stratrgic and resource management aspect. I think tcg should allow players to know which is gonna be your next draw to allow you to think to the future. Kind of what happens in tetris.
There are some games for example urban rivals that are tcg and doesnt have card draw.
Anyway. It is a discusion post, there is no need for aggresion.
I have kind of a problem with top decks. It feels that i didnt deserve to win or lose because it was just rng. What would happen if when you draw one card you see which is the next card that you will top deck? That way both players have more info to plan their play and it does not feel bad when you top deck the card you need. This way when you win you really deserve it.
I guess it all just depends what your own personal tastes are, especially since there are so many card games out there currently that seem to have a vary spectrum of random effects. Hearthstone's are one of the most pronounced for random effects, but something like Gwent relies on having very few. In any card game though you're generally building your deck and playing to maximize the odds of you winning.
Sometimes playing well really does consist of knowing what's left in your deck, going all in on that line because it's the only way to win, and being rewarded for it. In your example, even subconsciously, you did exactly that; I'd argue it was perfectly fair you won the game (obviously you had to deal the other 27 damage to your opponent so you had to have made other decisions to get to that point).
One of the draws of card games is limited information and how you deal with it; I'd argue one of the biggest issues competitively currently is that we have a few cards that break fundamental deckbuilding rules in the form of Swashburglar and Kabal Courier, which makes that a bit more of a shit show... but for cards with more limited pools (even Babbling Book is still easy to consider possibilities for) it's not nearly as hard to account for. Cards strictly being pulled from your opponent's deck, how they play them, and generally their general behavior, are all things that most high level players are constantly evaluating; determining lines of play based on the information you DO have is one of the biggest parts of the skill ceiling in virtually ever card game out there. It's also why practicing with hands shown to both players is one of the better ways to hone that kind of skill.
Obviously luck still plays a factor, and it's part of why it can either be pretty polarizing. Overall though, if you're playing the averages well and making plays with the best % chance of winning, it should show over time and you'll be rewarded for it. Your best off just enjoying getting lucky or running hot, laughing about your opponent getting lucky or running hot, and focusing on the average outcomes while finding ways to reflect on where there may be holes in your own gameplay.
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Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
I have kind of a problem with top decks. It feels that i didnt deserve to win or lose because it was just rng. What would happen if when you draw one card you see which is the next card that you will top deck? That way both players have more info to plan their play and it does not feel bad when you top deck the card you need. This way when you win you really deserve it.
Yes, there are lucky draws that can win or lose a game. It's normal. If you build a deck to exploit this (Miracle Rogue and Zoo, for example) it can't be called lucky draws or RNG, because no matter what, you will draw them.
In the case of other decks (talking about HS only) it can't be called lucky draw (although it seems like it) because we enter the realms of probability.
- At your starting hand (starting you), you'll have 3.33% to draw an specific card. - If you mulligan all 3 you'll still have 3.33% chance to draw it; - 3.57% if you mulligan 1 - 3.45% if you mulligan 2 (if i'm wrong with % correct me, please)
Then, as you draw cards, your chance to draw X card increases every turn (copies in deck + cards that draw, etc affect this also). It's a bit RNG but not as random as you think.
It is perfectly fair and the win is "deserved" if you rip direct damage off of a top deck. You put the answer in your deck for a reason. If you lose to Pirate Warrior unless you draw your 1 gollaka crawler on turn 2, muligan your hand for it and draw it on turn to to answer, that is a skill based decision based in probability.
Draw mechanics in general are resource management. Decks are built (often unknowingly) around percent chances to have a good playable card the turn you'd want to play it. Typically midrange decks have a downward sloping curve for this reason- consistency in the early game is more important because you have less chances to find it.
Other genres of games don't have this problem. Games like Monopoly or Chess, for example, are clear about what you have and what you are able to do. You opponents understand exactly what options are at your disposal when they make their moves. I'd argue that Chess isn't as fun as Hearthstone (or TCGs in general) because randomness is exciting, and drawing cards (or collecting unknown resources in general) can be fun.
Randomness, when done in moderation, adds excitement and cool moments to games. An example as well known as poker shows this- when two queens are out and a third flips while somebody is holding a queen, that is a really rare and exciting moment for the player and the audience.
TLDR: It is absolutely fair to win off of top decks (including ones some people have called "disgusting"). You build the deck knowing the percent chances of victory, and taking outs that lead to victory have a set statistical chance of winning you the game even when mistakes are made.
Well, this is their quote about the subject (I cannot confirm any of it though, as I have not played the game that is still in development):
Prismata is a genuinely free game. Prismata will contain over 40 free single-player missions, and our never-pay-to-win multiplayer modes will be freely available to all players. To fund Prismata's continued expansion, we offer ethical microtransactions to help unlock cosmetic items—like equippable skins and emotes—that provide no competitive advantages. Prismata will be kept free from the annoyances that plague many so-called "free to play" games. Our motto is simple:
No pay-to-win, no grinding, and no bullshit.
From videos it looks pretty much like what you describe in the OP; Hearthstone without card draw.
Hi guys i want your opinion about card draw in tcg or ccg (like hs).
I have played different types of card games and i have been thinking if the card draw mechanics are fair. For example i was playing zoolock and managed to get my oponent to 3 life. He cleara my board and i had no cards left in my hand. When it was my turn i got from topdeck a soulfire and won the game. My question is did i really deserve to win? Is it fair?
In the past i have played urban rivals. It had some randomness before the match started but when it started you knew all the resources you have. You also knew the resources your opponent have but that is not the point i want to discuss here. You knew exactly with what you are dealing. I think that a card game has a draw mechanics mess with your ability to plan things. It makes the game less skill based. UR consist of four rounds. Once i played against a top 50 player. On turn one he won the match. He played in such a way that it didnt matter what i did on the other three rounds he had the victory guaranted. I was crushed but it felt nice because he really played better than me.
I want to say that i am not doing publicity of that game. I do not recomend you to start playing it. It has a complex economy and it will be almost imposible for a new player to start playing it. There are also few players left so it will be boring.
What do you think?
The door to other games is there -----> really you are complaining about card draw in a CARD game.... making it kind of clear that you should be either playing other games like Parcheesi or just focusing on your job/studies and finding the cure for some whatever african sickness
edit: downing booze is also another pass time not reliant on rng.
Is card draw in a card game fair? It's what makes card games fair and interesting. Well that and shuffling the deck.
Drawing cards is part of the TCG/CCGs mechanics. You can't go against that.
There are some games for example urban rivals that are tcg and doesnt have card draw.
Anyway. It is a discusion post, there is no need for aggresion.
I have kind of a problem with top decks. It feels that i didnt deserve to win or lose because it was just rng. What would happen if when you draw one card you see which is the next card that you will top deck? That way both players have more info to plan their play and it does not feel bad when you top deck the card you need. This way when you win you really deserve it.
The luck of topdecks is more about how many cards you have in hand.
If you have 9 cards in hand, and draw the one you need -- it's not lucky.
You were unlucky that the card you got wasn't among the 9 other cards in your hand.
Topdecks are disgusting only when someone's hand is empty, and that person draw an answer or win condition, from among a heap of cards that don't do anything.
In a similar vein, the less cards that are left in a person's deck, the less annoying it becomes when he draws his win condition:
He was unlucky it wasn't in his top 15, very unlucky it wasn't in his top 20 and bloody unluck he had to draw over 25 cards for it.
The pinnacle of topdickery is vomiting out your entire hand by turn 5, and topdecking Leeroy for exact lethal from an empty board.
Ofcourse it's fair you play the way your deck is build ;)
AJAX AMSTERDAM
The only thing hearthstone doesn't have are tutors, or the card made to get a specific card in your deck. Most of the reason is to keep combo decks in check, but the backlash means certain decks require extreme luck to function correctly. If you look at mtg's older formats, tutors are very important, as they can fetch combo pieces and often just win you the game. I think top deck victories are inevitable in any tcg or ccg, so I have no issue. You just have to avoid getting mad when you are unlucky if you want to climb
The thing is that im not saying this from a bad loser point of view. Im saying it from a (maybe bad) winner. Today i played a lot of zoolock and i won lots of matches by topdecking soulfire or doomguard. Imagine this: all the match we where even. Struggling for the board. He finally manage to take it away from me and i topdeck lethal. Whats the point of winning that way? That should be a draw or a lose because he stabilized.
What i like from tcg is the stratrgic and resource management aspect. I think tcg should allow players to know which is gonna be your next draw to allow you to think to the future. Kind of what happens in tetris.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
- If you mulligan all 3 you'll still have 3.33% chance to draw it;
- 3.57% if you mulligan 1
- 3.45% if you mulligan 2
(if i'm wrong with % correct me, please)
It is perfectly fair and the win is "deserved" if you rip direct damage off of a top deck. You put the answer in your deck for a reason. If you lose to Pirate Warrior unless you draw your 1 gollaka crawler on turn 2, muligan your hand for it and draw it on turn to to answer, that is a skill based decision based in probability.
Draw mechanics in general are resource management. Decks are built (often unknowingly) around percent chances to have a good playable card the turn you'd want to play it. Typically midrange decks have a downward sloping curve for this reason- consistency in the early game is more important because you have less chances to find it.
Other genres of games don't have this problem. Games like Monopoly or Chess, for example, are clear about what you have and what you are able to do. You opponents understand exactly what options are at your disposal when they make their moves. I'd argue that Chess isn't as fun as Hearthstone (or TCGs in general) because randomness is exciting, and drawing cards (or collecting unknown resources in general) can be fun.
Randomness, when done in moderation, adds excitement and cool moments to games. An example as well known as poker shows this- when two queens are out and a third flips while somebody is holding a queen, that is a really rare and exciting moment for the player and the audience.
TLDR: It is absolutely fair to win off of top decks (including ones some people have called "disgusting"). You build the deck knowing the percent chances of victory, and taking outs that lead to victory have a set statistical chance of winning you the game even when mistakes are made.
You might be interested in a game in developement called Prismata.
Is it f2p?
This guy gets it. For instance, I like playing Yahtzee, except for all those damn random dice rolls.
Seriously though, if randomness gets your panties in a bunch, HS probably isn't the game for you.
Prismata is a genuinely free game. Prismata will contain over 40 free single-player missions, and our never-pay-to-win multiplayer modes will be freely available to all players. To fund Prismata's continued expansion, we offer ethical microtransactions to help unlock cosmetic items—like equippable skins and emotes—that provide no competitive advantages. Prismata will be kept free from the annoyances that plague many so-called "free to play" games. Our motto is simple:
No pay-to-win, no grinding, and no bullshit.