I want to share my thoughts on the new Elementals and why I think they are not going to be super fun.
As we know, the difference between going first and second is big (bigger than it used to be), and playing on curve is very important. The last few weeks a lot of new elementals have been announced, and especially for Shaman they look promosing. But, to me, they look like they are way to focused on playing on curve, because a lot of their texts read "If you played an elemental last turn (gain tempo)", resulting in a no fun archetype.
turn [9]: Ozruk (9 mana 5/10...mweh, but an options)
(remember they all have possible battlecry sinergy with Rumbling Elemental)
This means your win condition when playing Elementals wil be based mostly on your curve RNG. (=No Fun) And if you are on curve decision making will be super easy (=No Fun).
So that's my thought. Wonder if people agree? Or see no problem because Jades will fuck them up anyway
True, should have noticed. But with more elementals to come (shure they will fill in the gap), and a very curve-based play on turn 5,6,7,8... my thoughts stay the same.
Meaning you have to literally have all of the cards side by side just to get that golden curve. And you are using your entire turn to drop each minion, meaning you aren't healing or doing ANYTHING against your opponent directly for 6 turns. If you missfire at any elemental the whole thing falls apart.
What makes Tempo decks work is that they have a LOT of different parts that slot together and don't actually have to be played exactly in turn to make them work. If you have Spirit Wolves at turn 3 but your opponent dropped a northshire, you can lightning bolt+hero power and still have something on board that can benefit from a 2 mana flametongue or at least help lower the cost of your 5/5 taunt down the line.
Elementals suffer the same way old-styled C'thun decks suffered. THOSE decks also had that perfect curve with big late game payouts. The result was a deck TOO devoted to having every card coming in time and too little ability to disrupt or recover if things turn south. Eventually we realized going 100% on that 'perfect tempo curve' is foolhearty. Note that from there the only C'thun decks that worked at all abandoned most of the curved c'thun' cards and opted for a control style play instead while using c'thun followers as more to setup for C'thun.
Note, Tar creeper sucks outside anti-aggro decks since he can't trade or threaten, Servant is a 5 mana vanilla Yeti until you get the time to actually PLAY that second elemental. So that's 5 turns of poor as crap tempo plays before you ropponent has to worry about... 3 damage hitting them. Thus if you've hit your curve perfectly, you have to wait till turn 7 to do anything significant (a 6/5 hitting something and 5 damage from the hand).
Kali is great. Kali is a legendary in a deck where you had no ability to DRAW for him or even keep him in hand. And since you've done so little to your opponent, you are probably going to be using him as a board removal or a heal card.
So we're at 5 turns of crap tempo, 6-7 turns of removing minions, and a slightly better flamestrike at turn 8. What has midrange shaman done by turn 8? Murloc Shaman? Questor Hunter? Jade..ANYTHING?
Purely strogn tempo metas are boring. Yes. Elemental decks are going to b something.. perhaps.
But NOT the way you are picturing. This type of theorycrafting doesn't work. I've spent years doing it. I'vve seen others do it for years. I'm telling you now. Don't spend a year doing it yourself. The 'turn 1 this, turn 2, this, turn 3 this' is what I mean.
Craft the deck. And remember to put in an actual win condition, not just cool effects, and think of how it'll stop the other top decks floatingaround.
I mean...if that's what you're dropping against me on curve, I probably won.
1. Understatted. No effect on board. 2. Understatted. No effect on board. 3. Good minion. No offensive pressure. 4. Only really good minion played so far. 5. Understatted. No effect on board. 6. Understatted. No effect on board. 7. A good minion...but you're probably dead.
Guys guys, it's not asbout playing SOMETHING on curve. It's about a good THREAT on curve. Tempo wins by ALWAYS being threatening. Every single turn is a turn they CAN win on if not answered. Tunnel Trogg can grow too big. Totme golem is a big enough threat to do real damage. Jade claw pushes the jade pressure and creates value without sacrificing tempo. Even hero powers become real threats when they add spell power, targets for flametogue, or make big minions cheaper. The opponent never gets a chance to say "meh, I'm ok, let me power up!" at any time when TEmpo is at their peak.
How does a 2/2 at turn 2 do that? how does a 1/5? A yeti at turn 5? These are NOT threat big enough to make me stop drawing for my combo pieces or stop going for your face or stop powering up jades or use one of my stronger removals instead of a cheaper weapons. These cards are also not hard to remove.
You are playing as a tempo deck.. with no real tempo. Even the endgame is really just a way to recover the board or play catchup with a big bad boy. Which would be fine.. if you were control. But you aren't playing control like this. You aren't playing aggro like this. You aren't playing combo or midrange like this.
You are just playing a deck that does flashy things.. or tries to. e call those 'meme decks'.
It's neat. I'll probably make decks like this. That's a sign that you don't have a good deck given that I also spent half the year making decks with 3-4 Old Gods in it then specifically avoided making Reno/Jade decks in MSG just for the hey of it.
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I want to share my thoughts on the new Elementals and why I think they are not going to be super fun.
As we know, the difference between going first and second is big (bigger than it used to be), and playing on curve is very important. The last few weeks a lot of new elementals have been announced, and especially for Shaman they look promosing. But, to me, they look like they are way to focused on playing on curve, because a lot of their texts read "If you played an elemental last turn (gain tempo)", resulting in a no fun archetype.
Imagine playing elemental Shaman going first:
turn[3]: Tar Creeper (protecting your turn 4)
turn [4]: Rumbling Elemental
turn [5]: Servant of Kalimos (+battlecry sinergy)
turn [6]: Fire Elemental
turn [7]: Blazecaller (if your opponent played Fire Elemental he just lost the game)
turn [8]: Kalimos, Primal Lord
turn [9]: Ozruk (9 mana 5/10...mweh, but an options)
(remember they all have possible battlecry sinergy with Rumbling Elemental)
This means your win condition when playing Elementals wil be based mostly on your curve RNG. (=No Fun) And if you are on curve decision making will be super easy (=No Fun).
So that's my thought. Wonder if people agree? Or see no problem because Jades will fuck them up anyway
Rumbling elemental is rotating out.
True, should have noticed. But with more elementals to come (shure they will fill in the gap), and a very curve-based play on turn 5,6,7,8... my thoughts stay the same.
This is the direction that Blizzard wants to take this game. Eliminate combo decks, and encourage playing on curve.
This expansion is probably going to be just as unfun as the last.
There's a big problem with that setup:
1. Uses a legendary.. a one of.
2. Allows for 0 card draw.
Meaning you have to literally have all of the cards side by side just to get that golden curve. And you are using your entire turn to drop each minion, meaning you aren't healing or doing ANYTHING against your opponent directly for 6 turns. If you missfire at any elemental the whole thing falls apart.
What makes Tempo decks work is that they have a LOT of different parts that slot together and don't actually have to be played exactly in turn to make them work. If you have Spirit Wolves at turn 3 but your opponent dropped a northshire, you can lightning bolt+hero power and still have something on board that can benefit from a 2 mana flametongue or at least help lower the cost of your 5/5 taunt down the line.
Elementals suffer the same way old-styled C'thun decks suffered. THOSE decks also had that perfect curve with big late game payouts. The result was a deck TOO devoted to having every card coming in time and too little ability to disrupt or recover if things turn south. Eventually we realized going 100% on that 'perfect tempo curve' is foolhearty. Note that from there the only C'thun decks that worked at all abandoned most of the curved c'thun' cards and opted for a control style play instead while using c'thun followers as more to setup for C'thun.
Note, Tar creeper sucks outside anti-aggro decks since he can't trade or threaten, Servant is a 5 mana vanilla Yeti until you get the time to actually PLAY that second elemental. So that's 5 turns of poor as crap tempo plays before you ropponent has to worry about... 3 damage hitting them. Thus if you've hit your curve perfectly, you have to wait till turn 7 to do anything significant (a 6/5 hitting something and 5 damage from the hand).
Kali is great. Kali is a legendary in a deck where you had no ability to DRAW for him or even keep him in hand. And since you've done so little to your opponent, you are probably going to be using him as a board removal or a heal card.
So we're at 5 turns of crap tempo, 6-7 turns of removing minions, and a slightly better flamestrike at turn 8. What has midrange shaman done by turn 8? Murloc Shaman? Questor Hunter? Jade..ANYTHING?
Purely strogn tempo metas are boring. Yes. Elemental decks are going to b something.. perhaps.
But NOT the way you are picturing. This type of theorycrafting doesn't work. I've spent years doing it. I'vve seen others do it for years. I'm telling you now. Don't spend a year doing it yourself. The 'turn 1 this, turn 2, this, turn 3 this' is what I mean.
Craft the deck. And remember to put in an actual win condition, not just cool effects, and think of how it'll stop the other top decks floatingaround.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Is it confirmed that Rumbling and Fire Elemental will receive Elemental tag?
On topic, seems like Elemental decks are replacement for Dragon decks. Same curvestone, nothing special. Probably more powerful though.
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Elemental Mage Curve
Turn 1: Firefly
Turn 2: Pyros
Turn 3: Tar Creeper
Turn 4: Water Elemental
Turn 5: Servant of Kalimos
Turn 6: Pyros
Turn 7: Blazecaller
Honestly besides Tar Creeper, this isn't strong until late game. The strong plays gear it in the control direction, which is good.
Tunnel Trogg turn 1 into Totem Golem is far far worse of a plague than I'm seeing here.
2. Understatted. No effect on board.
3. Good minion. No offensive pressure.
4. Only really good minion played so far.
5. Understatted. No effect on board.
6. Understatted. No effect on board.
7. A good minion...but you're probably dead.
Guys guys, it's not asbout playing SOMETHING on curve. It's about a good THREAT on curve. Tempo wins by ALWAYS being threatening. Every single turn is a turn they CAN win on if not answered. Tunnel Trogg can grow too big. Totme golem is a big enough threat to do real damage. Jade claw pushes the jade pressure and creates value without sacrificing tempo. Even hero powers become real threats when they add spell power, targets for flametogue, or make big minions cheaper. The opponent never gets a chance to say "meh, I'm ok, let me power up!" at any time when TEmpo is at their peak.
How does a 2/2 at turn 2 do that? how does a 1/5? A yeti at turn 5? These are NOT threat big enough to make me stop drawing for my combo pieces or stop going for your face or stop powering up jades or use one of my stronger removals instead of a cheaper weapons. These cards are also not hard to remove.
You are playing as a tempo deck.. with no real tempo. Even the endgame is really just a way to recover the board or play catchup with a big bad boy. Which would be fine.. if you were control. But you aren't playing control like this. You aren't playing aggro like this. You aren't playing combo or midrange like this.
You are just playing a deck that does flashy things.. or tries to. e call those 'meme decks'.
It's neat. I'll probably make decks like this. That's a sign that you don't have a good deck given that I also spent half the year making decks with 3-4 Old Gods in it then specifically avoided making Reno/Jade decks in MSG just for the hey of it.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.