Hearthpwn

Quote from saiburOFFICIAL >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from saiburOFFICIAL >>

If they are against OTK combos, then I couldn't be happier. Dealing 30+ damage in one turn without setup is NOT fun, and EXTREMELY uninteractive.

There are no combo decks without any setup.

They nerfed them all regardless.

 By setup I am not talking about drawing cards and reducing their cost, sorry if I made myself not clear enough.

Traditional combo decks, the 'gather specific cards in your hand then slam them all and yell "I WIN!" have had a bad history in hearthstone.  Proper ones have proven to be too hard to balance.  That's because unlike what one person declared blizzard isn't being lazy in offering solutions to them.. you just can't mkae proper solutions.

In other games, like MTG, combos can be disrupted RIGHT at the time of the combo or at other points in the opponent's turn.  If I could see leeroy get dropped then, RIGHT THEN, play counterspell to dispell him like I could in MTG, combo would be viable here.  We do't have that, so all of the ways to stop them involve eitehr constant aggression (read: go pure face) or hoping something like a secret will work to stop it.  

The result, when a true combo deck shows up, like old miracle with the leeroy set or old patron, the deck became overpowered, though you wouldn't see it below the pro scene.  

Without actions during your oppoent's turn we can't properly balance true combos.  Don't bring up "why not just allow it" because we have MANY threads about that topic so if you want to bring THAT up go revive one of those threads after reading the many posts about it.

Best we can do are semi-combos that require multiple turns on the boad to set up or VERY slow ones like what leeroy does in renolock.  Thus it allows the opponent to respond or, if they can't, thhey don't have to be pure aggro to apply enough pressure.

In truth, I don't THINK we need pure combo here.  Combo traditionally kills aggro and dies to control.  However Tempo does a similar job (when the class doesn't have hyper efficient ways to refill the board via deathrattle or being a Shaman) of dying to control and killing aggro.  So we are probably better suited to balancing with a Aggro/Tempo/Control mindset than an Aggro/Combo/Control one (no, Aggro/Midrange/Control was never the trinity.  COMBO was the original middle deck.)

Quote from iandakar >>

Traditional combo decks, the 'gather specific cards in your hand then slam them all and yell "I WIN!" have had a bad history in hearthstone.  Proper ones have proven to be too hard to balance.  That's because unlike what one person declared blizzard isn't being lazy in offering solutions to them.. you just can't mkae proper solutions.

In other games, like MTG, combos can be disrupted RIGHT at the time of the combo or at other points in the opponent's turn.  If I could see leeroy get dropped then, RIGHT THEN, play counterspell to dispell him like I could in MTG, combo would be viable here.  We do't have that, so all of the ways to stop them involve eitehr constant aggression (read: go pure face) or hoping something like a secret will work to stop it.  

The result, when a true combo deck shows up, like old miracle with the leeroy set or old patron, the deck became overpowered, though you wouldn't see it below the pro scene.  

 

Without actions during your oppoent's turn we can't properly balance true combos.  Don't bring up "why not just allow it" because we have MANY threads about that topic so if you want to bring THAT up go revive one of those threads after reading the many posts about it.

Best we can do are semi-combos that require multiple turns on the boad to set up or VERY slow ones like what leeroy does in renolock.  Thus it allows the opponent to respond or, if they can't, thhey don't have to be pure aggro to apply enough pressure.

In truth, I don't THINK we need pure combo here.  Combo traditionally kills aggro and dies to control.  However Tempo does a similar job (when the class doesn't have hyper efficient ways to refill the board via deathrattle or being a Shaman) of dying to control and killing aggro.  So we are probably better suited to balancing with a Aggro/Tempo/Control mindset than an Aggro/Combo/Control one (no, Aggro/Midrange/Control was never the trinity.  COMBO was the original middle deck.)

Quote from saiburOFFICIAL >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from saiburOFFICIAL >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from saiburOFFICIAL >>

If they are against OTK combos, then I couldn't be happier. Dealing 30+ damage in one turn without setup is NOT fun, and EXTREMELY uninteractive.

There are no combo decks without any setup.

They nerfed them all regardless.

 By setup I am not talking about drawing cards and reducing their cost, sorry if I made myself not clear enough.

 How is gathering combo is not a setup?

 A setup would be to create some board presence which the opponent can counter

Its hard to play a multicard combo on a tablet

HS is a game for tablets

Any more questions?

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from macadow >>

FUN and INTERRACTIVE . Combo OTK decks are not interractive for your opponent, that is the case.

 Ok, let's talk about interactivity. Same example, Control Warrior. What's interactivity in this deck? Whole game plan of the deck is doing nothing except playing removals/board clears and tanking up. In healthy game such jerks should be punished by OTK builds. Because if you do nothing - you should pay for that. And good example for that was Control Priest/Malyrogue match-up, which was unwinnable for Priest.

People don't like losing in 1 turn. They like losing in 4.

Quote from GhostTrickx1 >>

People don't like losing in 1 turn. They like losing in 4.

Quote from No_Numbers >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from macadow >>

FUN and INTERRACTIVE . Combo OTK decks are not interractive for your opponent, that is the case.

 Ok, let's talk about interactivity. Same example, Control Warrior. What's interactivity in this deck? Whole game plan of the deck is doing nothing except playing removals/board clears and tanking up. In healthy game such jerks should be punished by OTK builds. Because if you do nothing - you should pay for that. And good example for that was Control Priest/Malyrogue match-up, which was unwinnable for Priest.

Yes, the game plan of control warrior was tanking up and removing threats. That's because it is/was a control deck and control decks play defensively. However playing against control warrior or as control warrior was much more interactive than a combo deck. Players had to think about each others threats/removals, think about when to draw, or in the case of aggro, think about overextending or not. In addition, control decks don't just "do nothing". They try to stall while building into the late game, where they play their win condition, such as Monkey.

Also, why are control players jerks, exactly?

Quote from iandakar >>

Combo traditionally kills aggro and dies to control.  

Quote from TyniF >>

The game is meant to enable combo with counterable board setup, but avoid one turn kill from empty board.

Freeze mage, Miracle rogue, Worgen warrior and all other OTK decks should always expect to die at any moment from a card nerf. Inner Fire priest or Windfury shaman combo lovers are left untouched.

Quote from TyniF >>

Thanks for the reminder about Rockbiter. I was so focused on the priest example that I forgot to double check if shaman was also a good example. Maybe I should have mentioned Blessed Champion Paladin instead, but it always seems harder to make it work than the priest or shaman combos (I'm no paladin specialist).

Quote from saiburOFFICIAL >>

If they are against OTK combos, then I couldn't be happier. Dealing 30+ damage in one turn without setup is NOT fun, and EXTREMELY uninteractive.

Salty players, "I don't know how to read that a deck is a combo deck and kill them before turn 12 by going face enough.... *sniff* Blizzard... Please take away these 12 turn kill decks! they are too uninteractive! They kill me in 12-15 turns and I can't do anything about it!"

.................

Except for Edwin/questing rogue.... (which is being nerfed).

 If you think that Combo kills Aggro and dies to Control, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Most 'combo' decks aren't true combo decks.  Reno warlock.  Current miracle rogues.  All hybrids with combo elements.  Even still, Reno warlock is one of the few late game decks that have half a chance against aggro pirates.

TRUE combo decks in HS have been decks like pre-naxx Miracle and pre-nerf Patron.  Those decks rocked the FLOOR with fast aggro decks.  Miracle's only real threat, when handled by a player that knew what they were doing (aka, not that fool you met at rank 5)was control warrior.  Against THAT deck Miracle was near worthless as all Control warrior had to do was armor up until they were out of range.  And that was before Justicar and Shield Maiden.  Patron, wielded by a pro had, at it's ultimate prime, only 2 decks that it did not have a 55%+ advantage on.  Vs Fatigue warrior it was a 50/50 split.  Handlock had a slight advantage..just a slight.  Every other deck was fish food to  aproperly handled patron deck.  ESPECIALLY aggro.  That's WHY tournament lineups were Druid/Warrior/Warlock with warlock being warrior's counter and druid being half a counter to warlock and half "whatthefkelsedoIbring".  It's also why aggro decks ruined the meta the second the warsong nerf happened.

Also note that when people say that you go aggressive against old Miracle or Old Patron, it's NOT with a smorc deck, unless you're godly lucky with your draws.  TEMPO decks are typically the decks that can offer some challenge to Combo in HS, supplying constant pressure in order to never let them focus on their combo.  It also forces errors so that the inexperienced ones mess up and get punished VERY uickly.  Note that this, along with many people constantly demanding to declare any deck that's not fatigue "Aggro" is where the "combo ca't fight aggro" mentality came from.  That and many people labeling these watered down hybrid combo decks as 'true combo'.

But it's wrong.  VERY wrong.  2 years (probably 3 but I can'nt vouch for the Beta) of history has shown, when a real combo deck, a real "draw your cards, drop them all, and win" combo deck comes to vogue, aggro doesn't have a chance against them.  

And all that doesn't even get to the real meaning, that 'aggro/combo/control is really just the MTG trinity, which people keep mistakenly claiming is aggro/midrange/control.  It was never really meant to reference HS.  It just technically still works a lot better than the mistaken version.  It also explains why control never really gets the best of aggro, because it never really was meant to do so. Aggro, traditionally, is scissors to control's paper.  Aggro is meant to be stopped by the 2nd slot which then brings more control decks.  According to the original trinity, that was Combo.  Midrange didn't even exist at that point, ad when it did they stopped having a balance trinity.  

In HS aggro is held back by Tempo and Combo decks.  Which may explain why, even under one  of the most oppressively aggressive metas we've seen since undertaker Tempo mage and the occasional hybrid-combo-control reno decks are all that exists.

Now if I'm wrong, try NOT to just say "you're wrong" and actually explain yourself.

I don't want to be rude, but I think instead of writing walls of text on the forum probably you should spent that time on playing Hearthstone. Just in order that your posts more corellate with reality.

Quote from 4wd >>

I don't want to be rude, but I think instead of writing walls of text on the forum probably you should spent that time on playing Hearthstone. Just in order that your posts more corellate with reality.