Hearthpwn

Why in gods name would you nerf prep?  

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@Wishmaster333; I highly doubt we'd see Prep rotated out since it's just such a defining card for Rogue (similar to Innervate or Wild Growth for Druid), and I honestly doubt class Legendaries are getting touched any time soon. I mean it's certainly possible if they feel like it's contributing to the staleness of Rogue, but I feel like they're probably not worried about classes having a few evergreen signature cards; Auctioneer and Leeroy on the other hand could probably see rotation simply because they're enabling archetypes on their own across multiple classes and that doesn't feel healthy for an evergreen set.

If the argument for Rag is "He's good in this meta if you want to run an 8-Drop", for Auctioneer is "He's good if your deck has a combo to dig for and you run cheap spells", and for Leeroy is "You need a burst finisher but your class doesn't have any" I think there's an argument to be made those cards are keeping Standard from feeling as fresh as it should.

 I don't agree, I think Preparation is a card that severly limits design space for rogue since allows to cast for free any spell that costs 3 or less mana. This type of mana acceleration usually leads to very broken combos, especially in Hearthstone since spells can do basically everything, even summoning creatures or buffing weapons. I suspect they nerfed Blade Flurry mana cost also to not be able to be casted for free with Prep. AND it's also a spell, that means has synergy with everything spell-related, like Auctioneer. The card is definitely busted.

In general this type of card seems more adapt to a eternal format, where mana manipulation is common and crazy combos available to every class, but not really fit in the protected enviroment that is standard. Also, Rogue's classic set is definitely the strongest and the most predominant of all classes, so probably Blizz would want to hit a few cards, other than Auctioneer and maybe Drake. Preparation seems the best candidate.

@swen_245; you could easily say that Prep is in the same league as Innervate for creating a class identity, which is why I'd argue it's likely to stick around. In this case it's reinforcing Rogue's ability to abuse multiple cards to buy tempo; I do agree Flurry's cost is quite likely a side effect of the card existing since it would have given Rogue an extremely solid AoE... but ultimately Flurry needed to be somewhat prohibitive to play because efficient AoE is something they're striving to avoid in that class anyway. There's always a chance Team 5 agrees with you on ramp being too strong to design around with cards like Innervate/Prep, but it's something they were apparently quite comfortable with during the Classic nerfs this year; they want Rogue to be a spell-heavy class, and Prep embodies that.

I think the bigger perpetrator of why Rogue doesn't receive busted spells necessarily (Counterfeit Coin and Tomb Pillager are actually pretty busted with Rogue in general) is more to do with the current Miracle shell. The more fire you toss onto that draw engine, the more likely you are to facilitate a dangerous level of consistency; overall considering Auctioneer/Leeroy are the main culprits of this is why I'd argue they're quite likely the bigger problem and both far more limiting to design in the sense they're accessible by every single class.

Something like Prep/Sprint is super powerful, but it's limited solely to Rogue. They'll certainly need to continue designing with that in mind, but I'd wager that's far more feasible than designing around Rogue with access to Auctioneer and keeping things interesting but balanced. Now who knows, I could be off the mark and an Auctioneer-less Rogue could still be a powerhouse driven off of Prep; but if you look at Miracle vs Oil, Miracle hands down has more insane power spikes to be concerned about. That's really why Rogue get Shadow Rager.

So basically remove all the cards that give Face decks any pause.  Got it. /facepalm

If we're talking about the power level of classic cards being too strong where Blizzard is unable to print cards that push them out I suggest 1 more not mentioned:

Mana Wyrm

whenever tempo mage shows its face in the meta, you can guarantee that Mana Wyrm is the #1 choice for a 1 drop.  Sure tempo mage isn't top tier right now, but if the idea is to keep the meta fresh, then getting rid of auto-include cards that are in the classic set seems like a priority.  

Another card which I actually like a lot and seems to make sense to rotate out is:

Azure Drake

In about almost any deck that could use a bit of spell damage, every meta sees Azure Drake being played and it will see play for the rest of HS if it is not rotated out.  I don't see anything wrong with that, but if you are for a less stale meta, then getting rid of an ever present neutral 5 drop is one way to do it.  

Other cards I thought of are just legendaries which I just see people using forever and ever just because I don't think anything has beat out their power level in any expansions:

Alexstrasza

Archmage Antonidas

Sylvanas Windrunner

Edwin VanCleef

Leeroy Jenkins

Maylgos

Tirion Fordring

Ragnaros the Firelord

Bloodmage Thalnos

Ysera

- Note: I don't personally want any of these cards rotated out, but if you're trying to achieve a fresh meta for every expansion, then removing cards that are "best in slot/class" is one way to do it.

Quote from ergory >>

can anyone tell me why they rotated loatheb out of standard? imo one of the greatest designed cards in the game and not too op.

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@Wishmaster333; I highly doubt we'd see Prep rotated out since it's just such a defining card for Rogue (similar to Innervate or Wild Growth for Druid), and I honestly doubt class Legendaries are getting touched any time soon. I mean it's certainly possible if they feel like it's contributing to the staleness of Rogue, but I feel like they're probably not worried about classes having a few evergreen signature cards; Auctioneer and Leeroy on the other hand could probably see rotation simply because they're enabling archetypes on their own across multiple classes and that doesn't feel healthy for an evergreen set.

If the argument for Rag is "He's good in this meta if you want to run an 8-Drop", for Auctioneer is "He's good if your deck has a combo to dig for and you run cheap spells", and for Leeroy is "You need a burst finisher but your class doesn't have any" I think there's an argument to be made those cards are keeping Standard from feeling as fresh as it should.

 I don't agree, I think Preparation is a card that severly limits design space for rogue since allows to cast for free any spell that costs 3 or less mana. This type of mana acceleration usually leads to very broken combos, especially in Hearthstone since spells can do basically everything, even summoning creatures or buffing weapons. I suspect they nerfed Blade Flurry mana cost also to not be able to be casted for free with Prep. AND it's also a spell, that means has synergy with everything spell-related, like Auctioneer. The card is definitely busted.

In general this type of card seems more adapt to a eternal format, where mana manipulation is common and crazy combos available to every class, but not really fit in the protected enviroment that is standard. Also, Rogue's classic set is definitely the strongest and the most predominant of all classes, so probably Blizz would want to hit a few cards, other than Auctioneer and maybe Drake. Preparation seems the best candidate.

I think you've missed innervate, which is stronger than prep by heaps and bounds: rogue has maybe 2 spells which are viable to run, with a cost of 3 mana. This means 9/10 preps are wasted potential mana, unless on a fan or beneath the ground. It occurs to me that most of the miracle complaints are from people who don't understand how delicate the deck is. Auctioneer was nerfed and only became viable due to tomb pillager, which is rotating out already. You remove EVC and or prep and there's nothing lethal in rogue to build around unless you think spending mana to steal another class's spells to throw back at them while hoping rng gives you something you can make use of is a viable mechanic. Maybe all of the sending minions back is viable with omg amounts of 2 damage si:7 spam and perpetual summoning sickness. 

 I think you're missing a lot of points. First of all, of course Innervate is good, indeed is the best card in the game. That doesn't change anything about Preparation. The fact that Druid has access to mana acceleration is part of the class identity; the crazy discount of Prep is another issue.

Second. Rogue doesn't have good options for 3 mana spells exactly because Prep is part of his classic set and limits design space. So, if you want to give a new spell to rogue, and you don't want that spell to be casted for free, the mana cost needs to be 4+, making that spell busted or unplayable. And that's the reason rogue gets the new magma rager in expansions.

Third. What will play Rogue without Auctioneer and Prep? Finally a new archetype using the new cards from the new expansion.

As is said, there shouldn't be any strong evergreen cards in the classic set, be they neutral or class ones. Basic and classic cards represent the core mechanics of the classes and - in case of neutrals - the leveling experience of wow (classic). Strong cards like legendaries stand for the endgame big group raids, legendary story quest lines and events, which make up the very most of each expansion content and keep the game fresh every few or more months. So, strong evergreen cards should either be weakened or rotating (or both). For epic , legendary and neutral minion cards, i tend to vote for nerf and rotation, while class defining common cards should only be changed a bit.

My nerf target list would be:

• Fiery War Axe
• Doomhammer
• Alexstrasza
• Malygos
• Ragnaros the Firelord
• Sylvanas Windrunner
• Tirion Fordring
• Ice Block
• Brawl
• Azure Drake
• Gadgetzan Auctioneer
• Coldlight Oracle

Edit: Fine, then just a simple list, ideas are for another place.

I'm super glad Aionpaladin doesn't get to balance this game.

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I'm super glad Aionpaladin doesn't get to balance this game.

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I'm super glad Aionpaladin doesn't get to balance this game.

 Definitely.

I like the school of thought of rotating evergreen cards, not because they are too powerful, but because they are prime staples across too many different archetypes and classes. Azure Drake is one that is brought up a lot. While I LOVE this card and LOVE using it, it honestly would be nice to not automatically go to that card and plop 2 in every Rogue deck I make.

I have similar sentiments about many other cards from evergreen, but imo they should leave class cards ALONE. There's a reason why Swipe/Wrath is played in every Druid, and it's because they are the only options for what they do (this goes for a lot of classes and class cards). If they take Swipe/Wrath out of evergreen, they will have to constantly fill that hole in subsequent sets. So imo, I like the idea of moving out some of those auto-include Neutrals (Drake, Auctioneer, Pyromancer, etc) to Wild so that we can see a bit more diversity from the actual "shell" of the deck, instead of diversity in the "support". Plus, that also keeps the "identity" of each class evergreen (for whatever that's worth), while taking out of the equation cards (like Drake) that go into EVERYTHING, and can even be considered as part of a class's identity (Auctioneer was only in Rogue decks up until MSG, so it felt like Auctioneer was part of Rogue's identity).

@CrovaxTheCursed; Auctioneer was a part of Malydruid in at least fringe cases as well before MSoG. I think part of why it feels like it needs to go even being part of Rogue's identity is that I'd much rather see Rogue cards giving it that identity than a class neutral; same thing as Antique Healbot and Sludge Belcher rotating out, we had to fill gaps with new tools or make due without them (for better or worse). 

That being said, I do think Pyromancer and Doomsayer are probably fine since they're just kind of interesting tech options. I'd be okay with them rotating, but overall it feels like the neutrals propping up entire archetypes and being too flexible across classes are more problematic than not. I love Azure Drake, Thalnos, Sylvanas, Ragnaros, and Gadgetzan Auctioneer (and to a certain extent, Leeroy)... but at the very least cards like Azure are too versatile for their own good, and Auctioneer/Leeroy are a massive crutch for combo decks currently.

What Hearthstone shares even more with an mmorpg, but not mtg is being a digital game, in which existing content can be changed for balancing.

I am indeed comparing it a bit with wow world and class development over the years, but what i am only saying is: Cards, that don't define the class cores, but are played from since beta till now, are the ones that should be rotating to make room for new content and more space to actually use them. When new content cards cannot compete to evergreen archetype cards or plain stronger cards like legendaries, there is no meaning to make something new. This principle stands true with all evolving, developing games, be them digital or not. The possibility of making balance changes is beneficial to the game experience and progress with following content and is gladly used.

Now, stop it with the denounciations and please contribute by adding your ideas. Thanks for the cookies.

Here's the deal, there is a point where cards are staples because they are consistent and versatile. Ragnaros the Firelord and Sylvanas Windrunner are some of the most prominent cards in this discussion, but they are some of the cards that have given Hearthstone some of its distinctive flavor. I don't think they should be moved, or anything else right now.

Quote from CapTim511 >>

Here's the deal, there is a point where cards are staples because they are consistent and versatile. Ragnaros the Firelord and Sylvanas Windrunner are some of the most prominent cards in this discussion, but they are some of the cards that have given Hearthstone some of its distinctive flavor. I don't think they should be moved, or anything else right now.

That sounds like a good idea Tehbolle.

Here is my list for classic cards to get rotated out.

Alexstrasza: She's is pretty essential for Freeze mage, she should be the card that gets rotated out not Ice Block (most people are saying Ice Block needs to rotate)

Malygos: even though Maly decks don't get played as much, i think this card needs to rotate out because Maly decks will be in standard forever with comboing up with certain cards like Moonfire, and Holy Smite, etc, since these cards will stay in standard because they are basic cards, i don't think blizzard is going to rotate basic cards since you get them while leveling up

Ragnaros the Firelord: he's is a good card but it limits blizzard what to do with 8 drops, since any midrange or control deck would run Ragnaros the Firelord instead.

Sylvanas Windrunner: Same reasoning as Ragnaros

Gadgetzan Auctioneer: This card is what keeping miracle rouge in standard forever, We need rogues to try a different deck since this one has been in Standard long enough. Standard won't be fresh it the same deck stays forever.

Leeroy Jenkins: This card is mostly used for Combos for finishing your opponent, Like 2 Power Overwhelmings or Cold Blood,

 I don't think class cards should rotate because it would make some classes have un even cards but they should be nerfed (not killing the card nerf)

IMO Fireball should be on any list of cards rotating out. its a mage staple card wich is very important for new players with not so big card collection. Just my one cent to this thread.

@swen_245; no problem with long posts, it's a discussion forum and sometimes it's hard to actually have discussions while keeping things short. :)

I'll agree Rogue is definitely a culprit for staple classic cards, and I'd say if it's still as prevalent as today without neutral cards like Azure and Auctioneer it's more than reasonable to take a pass at it in 2018; this certainly won't be the first or last year they make overhauls to existing cards they feel are problematic, and I think part of Prep's current value is tied to the fact Miracle is as crazy good as it is. It's certainly subjective and maybe Prep really IS a problem holding Rogue back, but I'd rather they eliminate the neutral cards that are universally a problem instead of eliminating something as iconic as Prep is. I'm aware they want to make sure that classes aren't prone to auto-including too many evergreen cards, but they're not scared of having them and I think without Thalnos/Azure/Auctioneer the number of them in Rogue decks is in a healthy range of 8-10 cards. 

Overall I'd say Prep's limits on design is probably a non-issue; they'd need to rework the effect if it was becoming truly problematic to design around to avoid breaking Wild too much, similar to Warsong's final overhaul. I'm certainly not going to rule out this as a possibility as well, but it's more likely they're okay with designing around it for the time being. 

I know Wrath/Swipe/Innervate/Wild Growth get brought up a lot for being auto-includes in Druid, but once again I think 8-10 cards being ubiquitous is on the beneficial end of things. Once again what we're running into issues with Azure being auto-include, or Auctioneer being the crutch for allowing greedy combos.

Think of it this way, if you have 8-10 cards (and maybe even as high as 12) being common to top end lists you can easily accomplish the goal of having decks composed primarily of new/different cards depending on build while still allowing new players to have those solid options to craft/use. It also gives you core reasons to run the class you're picking, which I think is legitimately a beneficial thing as well. 

Doomsayer and Pyro might be problematic eventually, but they really haven't been too absurdly common. I think they're still in the realm of interesting tech choices so similar to Prep it might just be something that gets revisited in 2018 (or even similar to this year when they make a second balance pass); things can always change and as they design more sets I'm sure internally they're perfectly aware of if cards are ultimately too limiting on what they can design and improve the game with. Like you said, we'll probably see some unexpected rotation specifically because of that.