What fucking references? You had none lol. Just opinions. I gave proof and if you looked at the link it says that they do that periodically. Just because they don't specifically do what you want doesn't mean anything. Your opinion isn't worth anything and your lazy retorts aren't either. Bring some actual proof to the party bro. You're not only extremely condescending, but painfully and willfully ignorant.
Except for linking that survey, you haven't really responded to any of my points. It's like you didn't accuse me of confirmation bias while exerting it yourself. Stop misusing the word 'condescending', I'm being entirely appropriate to your temper. As for the references, I meant I was referencing to equity, universal marketing teaching etc. You merely responded with a survey. I didn't source no, sorry for not being clearer. I'm not sure what you mean you gave proof for, that they engage with the community? Of course they engage with the community, but not as much as they should. You should have read my posts thoroughly. You just gave 'proof' to the obvious.
Now please stop trashing me with this zero-tier crap. If I'm making you so mad that you have to insult me and accuse me of being condescending and ignorant, then I suggest you take a break from the internet. Of all the things I wrote, you half-assed your way to finish and bet your life on the survey. It was a discussion, not a competition. I've been respectful all the way, and your ego can't handle it. That's pathetic, childish and I apologise in advance for not replying to you any further.
The things you referenced only show why it wouldn't not make sense for Blizzard to ignore the community (see the conditional), they don't prove it nor that Hearthstone is going in bad direction.
The biggest disappointment for me this meta is the only warrior u see is pirate warrior atm. In the past it has patron,controll,dragon etc. The same goes a little bit for warlock which has renolock. I kinda miss the old gods to. Yogg, n,zoth C ,thun are gone already in this meta.
Control, dragon and patron are all viable on ladder. face warrior just ladders quickly so its a better deck for laddering.
at rank 5 and up dragon warrior is exactly as common as pirate warrior. Patron isnt viable. Control is but as you pointed out takes much more time and is thus less appealing
I think the problem is that we have a couple months until alot of real arsehole cards disappear, and until then we have to hold tight.
Anyone who plays arena or wild will know how OP cards like shredder(and crew) and that in itself was a problem. Drake is the new auto include and in a competitive game there will always be such cards.
Give the team 6 month to re invent the wheel and then bring me Brode's head on a spike.
The problem is 2-fold. Firstly the "arsehole" cards that have dominated the meta the last year: tunnel trogg, totem golem, 4 mana 7/7, spirit claws...now bucaneer, patches, jade idol.
But the bigger problem is that team5 have us those cards in the first place, thinking that was what we wanted.
Once those cards are gone, what makes you think they will not deliver even more Degenerate cards to the strongest decks again? That is what they have done 2 releases in a row now.
You missed the point. They shouldn't have done the Goons for Warrior and Hunter in the first place. It's effect was known upfront and exactly what they wanted: organized imbalance in the ranked meta, which for the casual/fun player is to be called "fun". Since ranked is a spinoff of the casual, we have to deal with it. This is a repulsive attitude where there's no excuse for. You pay, I pay, we all ranked players pay and this is what we get: sloppy card design under pretence of fun.
People still defending choices Brode and consort with pseudo-intellectual analysis and "statistics" are one of the reasons change is far-off.
Well, I know you don't like fancy "analysis" and "statistics" but reading over the latest VS report I think it fully illustrates exactly what I was trying to explain to you before: paragraph after paragraph in which how well certain decks do depends entirely on how others are doing. There is no such thing as the power level of a deck in a vacuum. Such a dynamic is untestable with an in-house pool of players and requires the real world to emerge.
I think when criticizing the game a lot of people fail to realize that the game evolves over time. Just because a theme or strategy is good/bad now doesn't mean it always will be. The designers plan ahead and sow the seeds for themes to be good over time and not just giving everyone all the tools immediately. Look at Dragon Priest and Reno decks. It has taken 3 to 5 releases for these decks to become viable in the upper tiers. When the first set of next year drops both of those decks may cease to exist. Maybe then Grimy Goons or Stealth Rogue decks will be viable. We just don't know. I think the designers are learning to spread things over time so that a specific deck isn't dominant for incredibly long stretches as that's when a game becomes unhealthy.
Let's all chill and stop acting like the game is broken and the people in charge are morons just because we can't see the entire picture right now.
I think when criticizing the game a lot of people fail to realize that the game evolves over time. Just because a theme or strategy is good/bad now doesn't mean it always will be. The designers plan ahead and sow the seeds for themes to be good over time and not just giving everyone all the tools immediately. Look at Dragon Priest and Reno decks. It has taken 3 to 5 releases for these decks to become viable in the upper tiers. When the first set of next year drops both of those decks may cease to exist. Maybe then Grimy Goons or Stealth Rogue decks will be viable. We just don't know. I think the designers are learning to spread things over time so that a specific deck isn't dominant for incredibly long stretches as that's when a game becomes unhealthy.
Let's all chill and stop acting like the game is broken and the people in charge are morons just because we can't see the entire picture right now.
Another uncritical defender of holy Brode and consort.
I won't say I am uncritical. I had a few suggestions on how they could improve which I posted in the feedback for 'things they could do better' article on the main page. What I don't do is complain about things which aren't problems. Having every class to be equally balanced in all game modes is not possible. Having all of the cards always pan out like the designers anticipated is not possible and never will be. These are not problems with the game, they are intrinsic parts of all card games. Changing the design team won't solve things which are unsolvable.
I find it very odd that you think Kazakus is a gimmick card considering it is a must have legendary for Reno decks (Yes reno can be control). Reno mage is also becoming very strong as the meta is shifting from aggro to midrange and control. Medivh, Moroes, and The Curator all see a ton of play too.
I think it is pretty obvious that Blizzard repsect combo and control decks (Reno, control warrior, Kun druid) but you want them to dominate. There has to be a balance and the current meta has some of the most diverse decks in a long time. A player like myself who is returning after about a year it was very easy for me to get back into the game, craft a couple decks, and have fun.
Reno Mage isn't the deck to annihilate all the Pirates and Golems, so I wouldn't say it's very strong. Kazakus isn't consistent enough to beat aggressive boards again and again, you still have to be lucky. And control is an archetype you don't want to roll dice with. Medivh, Moroes, and The Curator are barely ever seen in legitimate gameplay. Medivh was attempted a bit and The Curator has some application in certain decks, but none of them particularly help make control dominate.
Blizzard doesn't respect control/combo for the reason I've already mentioned. They print cards that are ridiculously strong in the early game (Patches the Pirate alongside any of the decent 1-cost Pirates being a strong example), while printing very few relevant and powerful cards for the later game. This doesn't mean they need to print a dozen good 7+ cost minions, in fact, the sort of thing I wish they'd print is reminiscent to Grim Patron. More cards that enable entire archetypes where thinking, planning, calculating, and playing with balls really matter is what I'd personally love to see. Meanwhile, the neutral set is pretty damn lacking right now for a lot of classes, and I think that's a huge issue, since adding just a few neutral cards could change/create/reimagine entire class archetypes. What if a new, solid Deathrattle + Taunt minion was added, similar to Sludge Belcher, but better than Infested Tauren? Then Deathrattle/N'Zoth Shaman, a Control deck, could resurface. What if there was another neutral card that healed your hero, similarly to Antique Healbot? Yes, classes would have a perhaps unhealthy source of healing, but if the card is designed properly, control/combo Mages and Rogues could potentially come back.
I don't want to send the wrong message and suggest that I'd rather just be playing Wild, or 2015 Hearthstone. I don't want cards back, but I want archetypes/play styles back in new, different forms, and I want for decks to match old decks like Patron Warrior, Freeze Mage, and Malygos Rogue, in difficulty AND reward. PW and FM were prime examples of decks that could be played by anyone, but the better you were, the higher you'll make it, and that's the sign of a healthy archetype in my opinion. Why Blizzard decided the PW archetype was worth almost completely destroying, and why FM isn't worth getting any more good cards when the best FM players could barely make it to legend these past few seasons, since they lost a lot of strong tools in the rotation.
Having all of the cards always pan out like the designers anticipated is not possible and never will be. These are not problems with the game, they are intrinsic parts of all card games.
There we disagree. This notion is very welcome for sloppy card design but not for those who insist on even distribution of classes in ranked. As for now this distribution is way unbalanced as one can notice in reports of VS. This imbalance is not a result of unforeseeable things, but is systemic organized.
It is almost impossible to exactly balance out hundreds of cards. Card games like Hearthstone have been around for over 20 years and no design team (large or small) has ever succeeded. For the designers to even attempt to do so would take months to years, which is not remotely feasible if you actually want to release content in a timely manner to, you know, actually make money selling your game.
Having all of the cards always pan out like the designers anticipated is not possible and never will be. These are not problems with the game, they are intrinsic parts of all card games.
There we disagree. This notion is very welcome for sloppy card design but not for those who insist on even distribution of classes in ranked. As for now this distribution is way unbalanced as one can notice in reports of VS. This imbalance is not a result of unforeseeable things, but is systemic organized.
It is literally impossible to exactly balance out hundreds of cards. Card games like Hearthstone have been around for over 20 years and no design team (large or small) has ever succeeded. For the designers to even attempt to do so would take months to years, which is not remotely feasible if you actually want to release content in a timely manner to, you know, actually make money selling your game.
You talk like Brode would and that is the end of it. I wish a you very well and a HS-unbalanced meta in 2017. I'm sure you'll be very happy with that.
Although the game design has some flaws, Brode is an intellect person with some exceptionally smart thoughts on the game.
Still better than the haters. Though, I think banstylejbo is referring to Wizards. Just be glad that Ben Brode didn't sneak in last minute, completely untested cards like a certain combinatorialist did.
Anyways, as a devil's advocate. I think HS should change its design team, to one that has the quality of early MTG, for just an expansion or two. Let the populace suffer from the mistakes that haven't yet been learn by the card game designers. Then, the community would learn and hopefully whine less.
Druid, paladin, and hunter are in a bad place right now. Shamans, warriors, and rogues running the pirate package are the best decks. So the best strategy in the game right now is going face.
That said, miracle rogue, reno mage, dragon priest, and hand lock are all tier 1-2.
Still better than the haters. Though, I think banstylejbo is referring to Wizards. Just be glad that Ben Brode didn't sneak in last minute, completely untested cards like a certain combinatorialist did.
Anyways, as a devil's advocate. I think HS should change its design team, to one that has the quality of early MTG, for just an expansion or two. Let the populace suffer from the mistakes that haven't yet been learn by the card game designers. Then, the community would learn and hopefully whine less.
I sometimes dream that myself, but then I realize that people will inexorably believe what they want. It reminds me of one way an author put it in a book:
When confronted with things we want to believe then we ask ourselves, "Can I believe it?" We look for any piece of confirming evidence, no matter how small, and once we find it our belief is vindicated.
When confronted with things we don't want to believe then we ask ourselves, "Must I believe it?" We look for any piece of disconfirming evidence, no matter how small, and once we find it our doubt is vindicated.
I have found this to be disturbingly true in all walks of life, but video games in particular. People don't realize that there is a subtle and advanced skill set associated with being a good video game designer. That issues arising from balance and design are as much a result of the complexity of the task as any presumed incompetence on the part of the creators. This is not a claim about the infallibility of those in charge, but it is a nod of respect to how difficult it can be.
Ultimately it baffles me: what does one say to people when they simultaneously maintain that the developers are clueless yet somehow Hearthstone is clearly the most popular digital card game in existence? It must be coincidence...
Let's remember we're talking about Blizzard here. As their name would indicate, they move at a glacier's pace compared to other companies. I'd complain more about it if their track record as a company didn't indicate that their methodology produces higher quality games. I agree it is frustrating sometimes that more doesn't get done, but I think they are in a pickle due to the F2P nature of the game. They clearly make decisions based on trying to keep some kind of baseline status quo so as to not move too fast and pull the rug out of the players who grind their way to the gold/dust they need for things.
I do feel that they need to add a game mode akin to Heroic Brawl (that doesn't eliminate Tavern Brawl) for players who want higher stakes modes. I also feel like they should figure out a way to gain stars on ladder relatively equateable for both aggro and control decks so ladder isn't overrun by aggro all the time. Lastly, I think they should rework some of the Classic set class specific cards. Things like Savagery, Mind Games, and Kidnapper are woefully bad compared to where the game has come since beta. If they wish to keep the Classic set in Standard at all times I think that increasing the power level of some of these currently unplayable cards a little bit can keep the game a bit more fresh by giving classes more interesting basic tools to play off of. However, it'd have to be carefully done as no one wants a class to just be reduced to a single qimmick like Force/Roar was for Druid. I'm not advocating that all classes should be totally balanced against each other at all times (as I said in an earlier post, that is a pipe dream), but that they can create a more interesting game by improving cards slightly/subtly just as much as they can nerfing them.
HS is a victim of it's own success and consequent popularity. Thanks to sites such as this along with many others and also twitchtv, people can just log in to netdeck and blindly copy refined decks. Why is this a problem?
For starters, any meta would seem stale to those uninspired folks that opt to miss out on the fun of card testing and just copy paste a deck online. Imagine a world where HS was not as popular on twitch for example. No "pro" players to watch as they do the testing for us in a matter of mere days to weeks to figure out the most optimal decks to win with. We all would take alot more time on our own while testing sub optimal decks which in turn would help to self balance any meta and by the time we figure them out, a new expansion would be fast approaching.
It's sad that any interesting card or mechanic would only see the light of day in any deck is if a pro does well with it on stream or at a tournament and someone copies and posts it online. And you all wonder why this game seems stale.
On a final note, this is the most diverse the meta has ever been and I'm quite happy to see it. And yes, I've been playing since the game's release.
In the age of Donald Trump your author is obsolete...
I would suggest re-reading my bullet points. They are precisely in line with explaining the existence of a post-Truth world and why with increased access to information humans have become better at being wrong.
And your "difficulty" argument is really no defense for the Brodian hegemony. Saying something is subtle and difficult is not a defense nor an argument. It only says that you want to keep injustices in place. Again: downplaying fallibility and up playing difficulty is not going to cut the deal.
Can you clarify why this is not a real argument? Because to me, saying a system is complex is a perfectly reasonable one. Maybe another example will help.
In physics there is something called the 3-body problem. It is a situation in which you have three objects with significant gravitational pull affecting each other. A 2-body system is simple to calculate and can be simply and easily solved. A 3-body system is, to the best of our knowledge for the last 100+ years, impossible to solve. This is because every time one of the bodies moves its effect on the other two changes. These perturbations result in the movement of the other two bodies, which affect each other and the first. Repeat. There is no known way to predict the future of a 3-body system from general principles.
What this has to do with Hearthstone is that cards and decks do not exist in a vacuum. Instead they affect each other continually, with changes to one card or deck affecting many other cards and decks. Complex system are unpredictable in their details. If the simplest case of 3-bodies, where the rules of interaction are precisely and mathematically defined cannot be perfectly predicted, it only stands to reason that other complex systems which are not nearly as neatly laid out will be even more intractable.
Maybe you think I'm harsh and blunt. Maybe it explains why you feel the need to mindlessly defend Brode and consort. Maybe you see me as an lower educated cry baby (maybe my PhD-thesis on power differentials says it all). I've been around since beta. I see a beautiful game being mismanaged by the current design team.
Well, this isn't about you. You will notice that I haven't said a single thing about you, your intelligence, or your personality. Those things don't matter. You can be intelligent and wrong or stupid and right. What matters is the validity of your argument, which appears as follows:
Complex systems are predictable and inherently understandable
Hearthstone's developers are failing to properly predict/understand their game
This is not accidental but a willful money grab by those running the game
The quality of the game suffers as a result
The solution would be to replace the current developers with those who are better at predicting/understanding
I have spent most of my time trying to focus on the first point, with some tangential references to the second. Complex systems are, by their nature, devilishly complicated and impossible to predict with great precision. The best they can do is make general projections, aided by past events and in-house testing, that help keep the balance of the game within certain limits. They have gotten better over time, but they will undoubtedly continue to make errors due to the nature of their task.
Let's remember we're talking about Blizzard here. As their name would indicate, they move at a glacier's pace compared to other companies. I'd complain more about it if their track record as a company didn't indicate that their methodology produces higher quality games.
And this returns us to the proof of process. I have played Blizzard games for years and have been frustrated at several points with WoW, StarCraft, Diablo, and Hearthstone (I'm an unrepentant sinner and don't play Overwatch). I have thought that things would be better if they were different and have been very emphatic on several occasions. But in the end they have all done well, have been improved, and are the standards by which their respective genres are judged.
It strikes me as a bit humorous: if this thread were about how Hearthstone were perfect I would be a detractor. But since it is about how it is completely broken I am a defender.
HS isn't in that bad of a spot currently, but OP makes some good points and if they are continue to be problems it might well be.
they have all the statistics they need to make the game good (enough). no need to read rants from scrubs on forums
"In Overwatch, sometimes people say something like "Hey could we use this one voiceline for this character?" Boom. Added. Within a week or two."
And look at what retarded r/hearthstone wants:
Petition for Blowgill Sniper's voice line to be "one shot, one gill"
Petition to change Patches The Pirate's charge to charrrge.
I guess they think that everybody cares the same retarded things.
"Sit and come relax, riddle off the mac. It's the patch."
Chronicle: RuneScape Legends and The Elder Scrolls: Legen
but nope they still didnt do the trick
I think when criticizing the game a lot of people fail to realize that the game evolves over time. Just because a theme or strategy is good/bad now doesn't mean it always will be. The designers plan ahead and sow the seeds for themes to be good over time and not just giving everyone all the tools immediately. Look at Dragon Priest and Reno decks. It has taken 3 to 5 releases for these decks to become viable in the upper tiers. When the first set of next year drops both of those decks may cease to exist. Maybe then Grimy Goons or Stealth Rogue decks will be viable. We just don't know. I think the designers are learning to spread things over time so that a specific deck isn't dominant for incredibly long stretches as that's when a game becomes unhealthy.
Let's all chill and stop acting like the game is broken and the people in charge are morons just because we can't see the entire picture right now.
People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
Druid, paladin, and hunter are in a bad place right now. Shamans, warriors, and rogues running the pirate package are the best decks. So the best strategy in the game right now is going face.
That said, miracle rogue, reno mage, dragon priest, and hand lock are all tier 1-2.
I have found this to be disturbingly true in all walks of life, but video games in particular. People don't realize that there is a subtle and advanced skill set associated with being a good video game designer. That issues arising from balance and design are as much a result of the complexity of the task as any presumed incompetence on the part of the creators. This is not a claim about the infallibility of those in charge, but it is a nod of respect to how difficult it can be.
Ultimately it baffles me: what does one say to people when they simultaneously maintain that the developers are clueless yet somehow Hearthstone is clearly the most popular digital card game in existence? It must be coincidence...
If you're so dissatisfied with the game then just quit and uninstall instead of coming here and sounding like an entitled little brat.
Let's remember we're talking about Blizzard here. As their name would indicate, they move at a glacier's pace compared to other companies. I'd complain more about it if their track record as a company didn't indicate that their methodology produces higher quality games. I agree it is frustrating sometimes that more doesn't get done, but I think they are in a pickle due to the F2P nature of the game. They clearly make decisions based on trying to keep some kind of baseline status quo so as to not move too fast and pull the rug out of the players who grind their way to the gold/dust they need for things.
I do feel that they need to add a game mode akin to Heroic Brawl (that doesn't eliminate Tavern Brawl) for players who want higher stakes modes. I also feel like they should figure out a way to gain stars on ladder relatively equateable for both aggro and control decks so ladder isn't overrun by aggro all the time. Lastly, I think they should rework some of the Classic set class specific cards. Things like Savagery, Mind Games, and Kidnapper are woefully bad compared to where the game has come since beta. If they wish to keep the Classic set in Standard at all times I think that increasing the power level of some of these currently unplayable cards a little bit can keep the game a bit more fresh by giving classes more interesting basic tools to play off of. However, it'd have to be carefully done as no one wants a class to just be reduced to a single qimmick like Force/Roar was for Druid. I'm not advocating that all classes should be totally balanced against each other at all times (as I said in an earlier post, that is a pipe dream), but that they can create a more interesting game by improving cards slightly/subtly just as much as they can nerfing them.
HS is a victim of it's own success and consequent popularity. Thanks to sites such as this along with many others and also twitchtv, people can just log in to netdeck and blindly copy refined decks. Why is this a problem?
For starters, any meta would seem stale to those uninspired folks that opt to miss out on the fun of card testing and just copy paste a deck online. Imagine a world where HS was not as popular on twitch for example. No "pro" players to watch as they do the testing for us in a matter of mere days to weeks to figure out the most optimal decks to win with. We all would take alot more time on our own while testing sub optimal decks which in turn would help to self balance any meta and by the time we figure them out, a new expansion would be fast approaching.
It's sad that any interesting card or mechanic would only see the light of day in any deck is if a pro does well with it on stream or at a tournament and someone copies and posts it online. And you all wonder why this game seems stale.
On a final note, this is the most diverse the meta has ever been and I'm quite happy to see it. And yes, I've been playing since the game's release.
I have spent most of my time trying to focus on the first point, with some tangential references to the second. Complex systems are, by their nature, devilishly complicated and impossible to predict with great precision. The best they can do is make general projections, aided by past events and in-house testing, that help keep the balance of the game within certain limits. They have gotten better over time, but they will undoubtedly continue to make errors due to the nature of their task.