Removing the nostalgia of opening booster packs from the equation, do you think a completely free Hearthstone would work? I mean the same way Heroes of the Storm or League of Legends work? Like you have your progression through playtime and it is more about your skill than what you paid for.
Haven't played LoL in 3-4 years so I might say something that's not relevant today, but still, in LoL you can somewhat get runes faster with cash, but you still have to play for it. Even then the gap is not that big, an unrunned great player is still a great player and it will perform better than a runed bad player.
My point here is (and this comes from me, I play Hearthstone since beta and have all collections and heroes and stuff, and spent probably around 150-200 dollars on the game):
You have a guy who started out today on Hearthstone, he is 100% F2P. And You have a guy who started out today on Heroes of the Storm, he is 100% F2P.
If he plays the games the same amount of hours everyday he will progress much faster on HotS than on HS. And therefore he will reach a competitive level much sooner.
If I had to start over on Hearthstone I wouldn't play it (if I had to buy packs). I know it is not impossible, but the fun for me is having all these options and making interesting decks even if not competitive on the top of the ladder.
Just deckbuilding and trying to make interesting combos. However, grinding everyday for gold, for the hope of getting a good card out of a pack is not fun for me.
Why not make the packs either gone or with guaranteed cards (Classes wise)
Again, I know this won't happen (most likely), just a thought exercise as to why League of Legends works with Opportunity to show your skill on one side of the table and cash on the other while Hearthstone both things crossover eachother.
I can't play against my friend because he just doesn't stand a chance. It's like playing chess against someone without a Queen. That's just an example, of course I made a deck with just basic cards so we could play eachother, but that's not fun, the fun cards are expensive, so are the combos.
So maybe what, make a different Lexicon for Wild mode? With every card available? Make you receive more gold, or a better scrap mechanic than Dust?
I just don't get why someone should play hundreds of hours before being able to have the freedom of building whatever they want with whichever card they want.
I don't know, if you had to start over and could not or would not buy packs again, would you?
F2P does work, I started playing 3 months ago and I am rank 9 now, I am sure I'll be legend in 3-4 more months. Sure it's faster for paying people but not impossible for F2P either
Im a 100% free to play user, and in one year i got a almost full collection, with almost every competitive deck, with some stapple exceptions like harrison jones for example. And i have 4k gold for wog, and 2k dust without disenchants(i have all the nerfed cards, some gold and multiple copies of owl). It was very hard in the beginning, but i played arena and tavern brawl, and i reroll 40 missions, and i manage to start building tier 1/2 decks who got me past rank 5 every season, with only 2-5 games per day(more games on end of season, less in the first 5 days).
Wallet players get more tools faster, but most of the times they cant even use them, so i dont think the advantage gap is big enough to complain
I'm F2P player with 2500+ ranked wins and 1500+ arena wins, i enjoy the game, i have many cars, never bought a single pack with money and i'm always Rank 5 or better (since they announced the reward chests), HS is great, especially when you play fun and stupid decks against people who are trying as hard as they can to climb up, and when you win, it's always satisfying.
I'm a F2P and I just get along with what I have. Sure I can't really get past rank 15 and I have about 12 total epics and 4 legendaries (thaur, maexxna, rhonin (unpacked) murkeye) and a decent enough collection to make some decent decks and enjoy the game
If I had to start over, it would be too difficult to build up my classic collection (a key aspect in the new standard scheme of things) and still have cards from the newer sets at the same time, so I would probably end grinding through the game and getting classic packs till I can change gears and switch to getting adventures/current expansions and all.
That being said being good (or god) at arena is enough to speed up your card collecting to a pace much faster than grinding gold into buying packs. If you can infinite arena (and enjoy arena) then that will get your card collection growing at a rapid pace, I'd say 3-5 times faster than playing ladder to get end of the month rewards and dailies (which can for the most part be done in arena).
TL:DR Arena if you are good, if not then pay money or it'll take ages
Well now I feel like my entire Hearthstone existence has been a waste, I've been playing maybe a year or a bit less, and there is a dude up there who has been playing 3 months and rank 9. That being said I have a massive lack of dedication and stopped for AGES and never really got on often and did dailies. either way the rank 9 person probably deserves it so hats off.
F2P might take some longer, but a huge amount of the fun is to build a deck with the cards you have and slowly gain more cards and update your deck. I don't think its fun to start playing and already have everything, what's the fun in playing and winning then? If not the cards themselves? I really love the arena option since everbody has the same chances to win (not looking at experience but only card wise) and extra rewarding when you get your reward.
If you say "the fun for me is having all these options and making interesting decks" well then either you have to play alot or spend money. You can't just get everything without doing anything (either spend time or money)
@firekindle Although you are right about them being a company and trying to sell, that doesn't mean you are supposed to be rude and answer the way you did, he was just asking a question.
Yes it's possible I started playing 6-7 months ago didn't waste any money on cards the only thing I bought was hero skin gained gold through arena & missions
compledted all the adventures 2 months ago and have almost full collection just missing a few legendarys but I see no reason to craft them
now trying to stack up gold for the upcoming expansion
Well now I feel like my entire Hearthstone existence has been a waste, I've been playing maybe a year or a bit less, and there is a dude up there who has been playing 3 months and rank 9. That being said I have a massive lack of dedication and stopped for AGES and never really got on often and did dailies. either way the rank 9 person probably deserves it so hats off.
I've been playing for a year and a half and my normal ranking is 15 the last 2 seasons I've ended at rank 10. The 3 months rank 9 dude is .... 'special' ;D
Ofcourse F2P is possible. I played the first year without spending any money and got rank 5 every season. I could play nearly every class and had every staple legendary. Later I started buying adventures with money and preordering expansions. You don't need to pay in order to succeed in the game, but you kinda have to in order to play weird fundecks which is a huge part of Hearthstone for me. As F2P you value dust much higher so you would probably never use it to craft something like Onyxia or Shifter Zerus.
I played free to play on my US account and managed to hit rank 5 with 3/4 semi decent deck within 3 month of playthrought. Now with standard it will be even easier for new player to be competitive i think. About new player experience i wouldn't recommand for new players to buy pack diretly the fact to build a deck little by little i think it is necessary for the learning experience. I think it is like telling au new player of a mmo to diretly buy a max level characters.
I've a main account on the Americas where I have bought all the adventures, 40 classic packs, and ordered the new expansion. The adventures are super fun and give you some great cards. On my Europe and Asia accounts I am free to play. I am saving up gold and plan to do a ton of Arena on those. I'm waiting cause I don't want to get pack rewards that are going out of standard.
Ah k haha, I can only get to rank 15 (with 35 arena wins and 5 as my best arena key then something like 600-800 wins on ladder or whatever it counts on the dailies area)
The sense of entitlement is strong with this one whew
Anyway, aside from the fact that you compared HS to a Moba (which is wrong btw since the game are very different to the core so their F2P model cannot be interchanged/compared), I can relate to the struggle of not being able to play with friends who just started. This has something to do with the game design really. While MobAs are actually built for friends to play together regardless of background/experience, HS is more akin to a MMORPG. While a part of HS is playing the games, another part of it is the experience of growing your collection and experiencing the cards you get along the way. Of course you can opt out of the "experiencing" part and just buy all the packs in one get go.
Like RPGs, you really can't play the same game with a Lvl 1 friend using your Lvl 99 character unless you start again also. But then again, repeating will get kind of bland since you already experienced it right? In this sentiment, I really can't agree of making all the cards accessible since it would become a watered down MobA style in cards (then why not play a MobA itself then) and that would get boring fast for most players. HS was not meant that way.
And to answer your question, F2P is hard and long but the experience of playing the game for the new players is kinda essential.
PS. On the point of game immersion, building your card collection is similar to LoL and HotS limiting your hero pool oppose to DotA 2 with your full hero collection. Either one is fine, but saying that DotA 2 is better since you are able to play all heroes at the start is arguable (I like DotA 2 more) since you are disregarding other aspects of limiting/building up your runes and hero pool.
To be quick and a little blunt, the entire point to a card collecting game is to collect cards. It's honestly the same as not wanting to fight against other players in a PvP game. It's a core concept of the game. Even if it were 100% free, the packs would remain along with the progression system of collecting cards over time.
(sidenote guaranteed cards already exist via dust. We have two systems of card gaining: packs with gold and crafting specific cards)
So yes, why would a person want to play for hundreds of hours before being able to just do whatever they want with whatever cards they want? You described the entire card collecting community.. and any other progression based community. There's millions of us who play this game for just that. #*)$# I'd be bored with the game if i had every card just handed to me. That's why I'm here and not in a game that does that.
The question is really this: areYOu one of those people who likes that.
F2P does work, I started playing 3 months ago and I am rank 9 now, I am sure I'll be legend in 3-4 more months. Sure it's faster for paying people but not impossible for F2P either
Im a 100% free to play user, and in one year i got a almost full collection, with almost every competitive deck, with some stapple exceptions like harrison jones for example. And i have 4k gold for wog, and 2k dust without disenchants(i have all the nerfed cards, some gold and multiple copies of owl). It was very hard in the beginning, but i played arena and tavern brawl, and i reroll 40 missions, and i manage to start building tier 1/2 decks who got me past rank 5 every season, with only 2-5 games per day(more games on end of season, less in the first 5 days).
Wallet players get more tools faster, but most of the times they cant even use them, so i dont think the advantage gap is big enough to complain
I'm F2P player with 2500+ ranked wins and 1500+ arena wins, i enjoy the game, i have many cars, never bought a single pack with money and i'm always Rank 5 or better (since they announced the reward chests), HS is great, especially when you play fun and stupid decks against people who are trying as hard as they can to climb up, and when you win, it's always satisfying.
Yes it's possible I started playing 6-7 months ago didn't waste any money on cards the only thing I bought was hero skin gained gold through arena & missions
compledted all the adventures 2 months ago and have almost full collection just missing a few legendarys but I see no reason to craft them
now trying to stack up gold for the upcoming expansion
Ofcourse F2P is possible. I played the first year without spending any money and got rank 5 every season. I could play nearly every class and had every staple legendary. Later I started buying adventures with money and preordering expansions. You don't need to pay in order to succeed in the game, but you kinda have to in order to play weird fundecks which is a huge part of Hearthstone for me. As F2P you value dust much higher so you would probably never use it to craft something like Onyxia or Shifter Zerus.
All of you misunderstood what I said, I'm not asking "Can you play this game without paying?". Of course you can. I'm asking "Could a card game work without paying options, and therefore collecting cards over time? With a focus on deck building not collecting". Please read what I said below too =)
Games like League of Legends and HotS are not So free to play, i mean, they monthly release new skins that makes the champions Look cooler, in the end everybody will spend some money on skins. And a F2P is always possible thing, Look At trump last F2P
Yes they are. Skins have no influence inside the game. Is like saying that because you can buy a Hearthstone Mousepad, Hearthstone is not F2P. They are for customization.
The sense of entitlement is strong with this one whew
Anyway, aside from the fact that you compared HS to a Moba (which is wrong btw since the game are very different to the core so their F2P model cannot be interchanged/compared), I can relate to the struggle of not being able to play with friends who just started. This has something to do with the game design really. While MobAs are actually built for friends to play together regardless of background/experience, HS is more akin to a MMORPG. While a part of HS is playing the games, another part of it is the experience of growing your collection and experiencing the cards you get along the way. Of course you can opt out of the "experiencing" part and just buy all the packs in one get go.
Like RPGs, you really can't play the same game with a Lvl 1 friend using your Lvl 99 character unless you start again also. But then again, repeating will get kind of bland since you already experienced it right? In this sentiment, I really can't agree of making all the cards accessible since it would become a watered down MobA style in cards (then why not play a MobA itself then) and that would get boring fast for most players. HS was not meant that way.
And to answer your question, F2P is hard and long but the experience of playing the game for the new players is kinda essential.
PS. On the point of game immersion, building your card collection is similar to LoL and HotS limiting your hero pool oppose to DotA 2 with your full hero collection. Either one is fine, but saying that DotA 2 is better since you are able to play all heroes at the start is arguable (I like DotA 2 more) since you are disregarding other aspects of limiting/building up your runes and hero pool.
"The sense of entitlement is strong with this one whew" Quite an ironic way to start your response if you ask me.
You can compare the games, and the proof is that I did. Even if they're not 100% equal, they share some things in common.
I see your point in a Level1 vs a Level99. However, consider WoW, maybe Vanilla WoW because today is just easy to get levels. But still, Vanilla WoW.
You have your main, spent months to get to max level and a new friend starts playing. You can't play with him, but you can start an alt that will be - even if the quests and leveling spots are the same - a new "adventure" since it's a completely different class and it will be played completely different than your main.
However, imagine that WoW is like Hearthstone. You create a new alt to play with your friend. However, everytime you level up, instead of getting something for your class, you get a Level Pack. Which might or might not help you. You could get a lvl10 weapon with 10 attack and your friend get a lvl15 Legendary with 300.
That's my point. The progression of a F2P is random. Hey you like Druid? Here's 5 paladin cards. I'm not saying FOR SURE give them all the cards at once. It's overwhelming.
But maybe give MORE cards, or an option to choose which card you get (like every 10 levels in a class you get to choose a legendary, or something like that, just an example)
Someway where YOU can choose your build, or your deck in this case. And that's why the first thing I said is leaving the nostalgia of opening packs aside. Because what I'm "proposing" would obviously not work with bought card packs.
I'm saying something more linear, much like leveling in an RPG. Instead of getting level12 with Warrior and getting a random card, maybe you get like 6 cards and you can pick two and the 6 cards are maybe random, to still give the pack opening feeling. Or you get to choose if you want 3 commons or 1 epic card, etc.
Something to take away the random factor of the F2P player that can't or won't get his card by sheer number of packs opened.
To be quick and a little blunt, the entire point to a card collecting game is to collect cards. It's honestly the same as not wanting to fight against other players in a PvP game. It's a core concept of the game. Even if it were 100% free, the packs would remain along with the progression system of collecting cards over time.
(sidenote guaranteed cards already exist via dust. We have two systems of card gaining: packs with gold and crafting specific cards)
So yes, why would a person want to play for hundreds of hours before being able to just do whatever they want with whatever cards they want? You described the entire card collecting community.. and any other progression based community. There's millions of us who play this game for just that. #*)$# I'd be bored with the game if i had every card just handed to me. That's why I'm here and not in a game that does that.
The question is really this: areYOu one of those people who likes that.
And to be blunt that's why the question is "Can a card game work as a F2P game" and not "Card games are collecting games, oh rly? ya rly?"
I'm asking a "What if" question. Your answer is like "Hey! That would never happen!". Doesn't matter! What if????????
Also read above, I'm not saying to give away every card instantly. Progression keeps the players interested in the game. I'm saying give players more freedom of choice instead on how they wanna progress.
And yes, collecting is fine, as I said I've been playing since closed beta so collecting cards for me lost it's fun a while ago. I bought like the packs when new expansions came out just so I could get right into deckbuilding.
So yeah, I consider Deckbuilding >>>>>> (Much much more important than) Collecting. (and that's my opinion, I'm not saying it is the best for the game or whatnot, I just love deckbuilding and collecting doesn't interest ME, you can totally disagree, just stay on point when discussing because this is not a Collecting vs Not Collecting topic) I love watching weird decks made by Hobbs and getting inspiration by them. I loved when I saw more rogue mill cards (with gang-up and whatnot)
My point being: What keeps me in the game is the factor that I have all the cards and can build whatever I want with them. If I had to start playing again from scratch, I wouldn't.
And it is BECAUSE of that reasoning/feeling of mine that I asked the "what if" question: "Would hearthstone work as a F2P game". And it is ALSO why I started the topic with "Removing the nostalgia of opening booster packs from the equation," so I don't get why you're bringing to the table the collecting factor. And ALSO why I said this was more of a thought exercise, just to think about how would a card game go about if they wanted to remove the randomness of booster opening.
I know that there are people who play to collect. And that's why I pointed out very early to remove that from the equation. It's an what if question, not a "let's change hearthstone forever, right now. #makehearthstonegreatagain"
If you've been playing league since it released, sure it's F2P. If you are new? Getting a page of runes and the 40 or so heroes needed to play before the meta changes is outside feasibility.
Also "Collecting" is really important to tcgs, not in the throw money at it since but in the sense it allows for a controlled discovery of cards, that feeling of finding a card just PERFECT for an existing deck, or that inspires a new deck. Those are very important to the whole deckbuilding paradigm.
But the question boils down to, is there enough money for hearthstone's profitability in speed ups and cosmetics. The answer is, we don't know because no one has tried a tcg like that and it would be a major risk to make it.
And to be blunt that's why the question is "Can a card game work as a F2P game" and not "Card games are collecting games, oh rly? ya rly?"
I'm asking a "What if" question. Your answer is like "Hey! That would never happen!". Doesn't matter! What if????????
Because you are asking about hearthstone. Hearthstone can never become a non-collecting game.
Now as to card games in general, yes they exist. There's supposed to be a term for them but I can't remember it (it's not a CCG or TCG since the second C, collecting, doesn't exist). But games where you have everything from the start exist.
As far as
Also read above, I'm not saying to give away every card instantly. Progression keeps the players interested in the game. I'm saying give players more freedom of choice instead on how they wanna progress.
And yes, collecting is fine, as I said I've been playing since closed beta so collecting cards for me lost it's fun a while ago. I bought like the packs when new expansions came out just so I could get right into deckbuilding.
So yeah, I consider Deckbuilding >>>>>> (Much much more important than) Collecting. (and that's my opinion, I'm not saying it is the best for the game or whatnot, I just love deckbuilding and collecting doesn't interest ME, you can totally disagree, just stay on point when discussing because this is not a Collecting vs Not Collecting topic) I love watching weird decks made by Hobbs and getting inspiration by them. I loved when I saw more rogue mill cards (with gang-up and whatnot)
My point being: What keeps me in the game is the factor that I have all the cards and can build whatever I want with them. If I had to start playing again from scratch, I wouldn't.
And it is BECAUSE of that reasoning/feeling of mine that I asked the "what if" question: "Would hearthstone work as a F2P game". And it is ALSO why I started the topic with "Removing the nostalgia of opening booster packs from the equation," so I don't get why you're bringing to the table the collecting factor. And ALSO why I said this was more of a thought exercise, just to think about how would a card game go about if they wanted to remove the randomness of booster opening.
It would have to be built from the ground up. Everything about hearthstone is designed around the concept of progression, of starting with limited pools and building them up over time. It's designed specifically FOR players, like myself, who WANT to open packs. Thus the 'Collection' talk.
You can make a game, from the start, that doesn't rely on opening boosters and not having all of the cards. However, you can't really take an already established game and turn it into one. Not only would so much of the game, including quests, the concepts of gold and dust, the way expansions are handled, and even balancing the cards themselves, have to be changed, but it would alienate the playerbase. Note that one of the biggest complaints about the format system was that people would be blocked from spending more money to buy old packs. Some of the most popular hearthstone videos out there are pack opening ones.
Put that into perspective. The playerbase is so hyped up over the concept of booster packs that they will watch, not play, watch other people opening up hundreds of packs. Note again, not PLAYING the cards, not discussing or designing decks. Over an hour of just "open pack" "look at cards" "open packs" repeat.
Basically, you are a noncollector in a game about collecting for collectors. Which is why the mention of removing that aspect is bringing the heat. It's like if someone asked for LoL to put in random hero boxes (pay $2 and get a random hero!) as the only way to get heros.
I know that there are people who play to collect. And that's why I pointed out very early to remove that from the equation. It's an what if question, not a "let's change hearthstone forever, right now. #makehearthstonegreatagain"
To sum up:
What you are asking doesn't sound like F2P but "get everything at once." or "no collector' mode.
Card games without collector systems exist. They aren't burning the charts but they exist. It's veyr much possible to make such a game.
Hearthstone would not be able to turn into such a game without a complete overhaul of most of its systems. It also would basically ruin itself by doing so as its playerbase would run for the hills since changing the core elements of a game after release is a Bad Idea.
If you've been playing league since it released, sure it's F2P. If you are new? Getting a page of runes and the 40 or so heroes needed to play before the meta changes is outside feasibility.
Also "Collecting" is really important to tcgs, not in the throw money at it since but in the sense it allows for a controlled discovery of cards, that feeling of finding a card just PERFECT for an existing deck, or that inspires a new deck. Those are very important to the whole deckbuilding paradigm.
But the question boils down to, is there enough money for hearthstone's profitability in speed ups and cosmetics. The answer is, we don't know because no one has tried a tcg like that and it would be a major risk to make it.
Whilst yes if you started today LoL you'd have tons of locked content. However, my point is not that you should get everything instantly.
My point is in LoL you can CHOOSE the champion you wanna buy or the runes you'll get. So even if you have just started out, in a month or so you can have a single champion that will have the same starting stats as someone who would compete at a tournament (runes and masteries) and the focus would be on knowledge and skill, not having better stats.
An analogy: If you instead of picking champions (to purchase) and runes, you'd get a "Pack" that unlocked a Random Champion for you, and another that unlocked Random Runes.
No one would play the game. Why in one platform it is as you said a good "feeling of finding a card just PERFECT" and the other would be "Hey I like support. Here's Rengar", or "Hey at least I got Rengar, here's Mana Regen Runes".
For me it is not fun to open (or watch my friend open) pack after pack just to find random cards that may help me now or 6 months from now when they are relevant or I have enough cards like the one I opened to make a deck.
However, I do agree with you that Dota and LoL have much more in the way of "eye candy potential" since you have skills and whatnot. But I could argue that you could have much more skins with much better effects for classes on HS than we do today.
And again, maybe not remove the payment option altogether. Just like you can buy IP Boosters so you farm IP faster in League you could buy some booster that would affect the rate in which you get more stuff.
The problem (for me) is reaching the content and progressing. Not the payment option.
For example, if you want Ragnaros, it could be tomorrow when you get it, it could be in a week or months. If you want a champion in League, you know how long till you get your new champion you wanna try out (not to mention free week), or runes, etc.
Also when you're starting out, you won't dust everything. Most cards will be usefull (eventually). Because all others (you start with) suck. So accumulating 1600 dust is really hard when you're starting out (for say that staple Dr.7 that ruled so far). Hey you want Dr.7? Here's Antonidas. Hope you have all that good epics and mage cards to make a nice deck that works with it, because you sure as hell shouldn't dust him.
Or you scrap cards you don't have spares, but don't need RIGHT now. And that's just sad.
What you are asking doesn't sound like F2P but "get everything at once." or "no collector' mode.
No I am not saying that you should have ZERO progression. I'm also not saying we should CHANGE Hearthstone right now. I blatantly said that right here:
It's an what if question, not a "let's change hearthstone forever, right now. #makehearthstonegreatagain"
I'm simply asking if the hipothetical scenario could work: Have a card game (and it could be HS, now, before, past, future, etc) that you can choose DIRECTLY which card you want next. You'd still have progression. You'd still have collection. It just wouldn't be RNG.
(off topic) And now that I think about it... The most hated thing (after Faceistheplace) in HS is RNG(feelsbad) and yet the whole progress is dependable on it. Ironic lol. Is like saying DAMN THOSE 100% RNG BRAWL every week, but then YAY SO FUN TO OPEN PACKS! WHATDYA KNOW?? I GOT NOTHING USEFULL! What a time to be alive!
I think many aren't addressing the question. Yes many ftp players here, and we are doing fine. That isn't the point.
The TC is saying everyone starts the same essentially. With every card. So everyone can build every deck, so everyone is on completely even ground. Like in a fighting game, or RTS, or most other competitive games.
Now is this financially feasible, could the game stay afloat with skin purchases, perhaps alternate cardback purchases, unique emotes, other aesthetic options? Blizzard and Wow has a massive fanbase, so certainly it could. Dota 2 is completely ftp, no disadvantages, and it pulls in 18 million dollars a month.
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Removing the nostalgia of opening booster packs from the equation, do you think a completely free Hearthstone would work? I mean the same way Heroes of the Storm or League of Legends work? Like you have your progression through playtime and it is more about your skill than what you paid for.
Haven't played LoL in 3-4 years so I might say something that's not relevant today, but still, in LoL you can somewhat get runes faster with cash, but you still have to play for it. Even then the gap is not that big, an unrunned great player is still a great player and it will perform better than a runed bad player.
My point here is (and this comes from me, I play Hearthstone since beta and have all collections and heroes and stuff, and spent probably around 150-200 dollars on the game):
You have a guy who started out today on Hearthstone, he is 100% F2P.
And
You have a guy who started out today on Heroes of the Storm, he is 100% F2P.
If he plays the games the same amount of hours everyday he will progress much faster on HotS than on HS.
And therefore he will reach a competitive level much sooner.
If I had to start over on Hearthstone I wouldn't play it (if I had to buy packs).
I know it is not impossible, but the fun for me is having all these options and making interesting decks even if not competitive on the top of the ladder.
Just deckbuilding and trying to make interesting combos.
However, grinding everyday for gold, for the hope of getting a good card out of a pack is not fun for me.
Why not make the packs either gone or with guaranteed cards (Classes wise)
Again, I know this won't happen (most likely), just a thought exercise as to why League of Legends works with Opportunity to show your skill on one side of the table and cash on the other while Hearthstone both things crossover eachother.
I can't play against my friend because he just doesn't stand a chance. It's like playing chess against someone without a Queen. That's just an example, of course I made a deck with just basic cards so we could play eachother, but that's not fun, the fun cards are expensive, so are the combos.
So maybe what, make a different Lexicon for Wild mode? With every card available?
Make you receive more gold, or a better scrap mechanic than Dust?
I just don't get why someone should play hundreds of hours before being able to have the freedom of building whatever they want with whichever card they want.
I don't know, if you had to start over and could not or would not buy packs again, would you?
F2P does work, I started playing 3 months ago and I am rank 9 now, I am sure I'll be legend in 3-4 more months. Sure it's faster for paying people but not impossible for F2P either
Im a 100% free to play user, and in one year i got a almost full collection, with almost every competitive deck, with some stapple exceptions like harrison jones for example. And i have 4k gold for wog, and 2k dust without disenchants(i have all the nerfed cards, some gold and multiple copies of owl). It was very hard in the beginning, but i played arena and tavern brawl, and i reroll 40 missions, and i manage to start building tier 1/2 decks who got me past rank 5 every season, with only 2-5 games per day(more games on end of season, less in the first 5 days).
Wallet players get more tools faster, but most of the times they cant even use them, so i dont think the advantage gap is big enough to complain
f2p, playing for fun ^^
I'm F2P player with 2500+ ranked wins and 1500+ arena wins, i enjoy the game, i have many cars, never bought a single pack with money and i'm always Rank 5 or better (since they announced the reward chests), HS is great, especially when you play fun and stupid decks against people who are trying as hard as they can to climb up, and when you win, it's always satisfying.
I'm a F2P and I just get along with what I have. Sure I can't really get past rank 15 and I have about 12 total epics and 4 legendaries (thaur, maexxna, rhonin (unpacked) murkeye) and a decent enough collection to make some decent decks and enjoy the game
If I had to start over, it would be too difficult to build up my classic collection (a key aspect in the new standard scheme of things) and still have cards from the newer sets at the same time, so I would probably end grinding through the game and getting classic packs till I can change gears and switch to getting adventures/current expansions and all.
That being said being good (or god) at arena is enough to speed up your card collecting to a pace much faster than grinding gold into buying packs. If you can infinite arena (and enjoy arena) then that will get your card collection growing at a rapid pace, I'd say 3-5 times faster than playing ladder to get end of the month rewards and dailies (which can for the most part be done in arena).
TL:DR Arena if you are good, if not then pay money or it'll take ages
Diehard druid player ^~^
Check out my theorycrafted Blistering Rot
Well now I feel like my entire Hearthstone existence has been a waste, I've been playing maybe a year or a bit less, and there is a dude up there who has been playing 3 months and rank 9. That being said I have a massive lack of dedication and stopped for AGES and never really got on often and did dailies. either way the rank 9 person probably deserves it so hats off.
Diehard druid player ^~^
Check out my theorycrafted Blistering Rot
F2P might take some longer, but a huge amount of the fun is to build a deck with the cards you have and slowly gain more cards and update your deck. I don't think its fun to start playing and already have everything, what's the fun in playing and winning then? If not the cards themselves? I really love the arena option since everbody has the same chances to win (not looking at experience but only card wise) and extra rewarding when you get your reward.
If you say "the fun for me is having all these options and making interesting decks" well then either you have to play alot or spend money. You can't just get everything without doing anything (either spend time or money)
@firekindle Although you are right about them being a company and trying to sell, that doesn't mean you are supposed to be rude and answer the way you did, he was just asking a question.
Yes it's possible I started playing 6-7 months ago didn't waste any money on cards the only thing I bought was hero skin gained gold through arena & missions
compledted all the adventures 2 months ago and have almost full collection just missing a few legendarys but I see no reason to craft them
now trying to stack up gold for the upcoming expansion
The 3 months rank 9 dude is .... 'special'
;D
Ofcourse F2P is possible. I played the first year without spending any money and got rank 5 every season. I could play nearly every class and had every staple legendary. Later I started buying adventures with money and preordering expansions. You don't need to pay in order to succeed in the game, but you kinda have to in order to play weird fundecks which is a huge part of Hearthstone for me. As F2P you value dust much higher so you would probably never use it to craft something like Onyxia or Shifter Zerus.
I played free to play on my US account and managed to hit rank 5 with 3/4 semi decent deck within 3 month of playthrought. Now with standard it will be even easier for new player to be competitive i think. About new player experience i wouldn't recommand for new players to buy pack diretly the fact to build a deck little by little i think it is necessary for the learning experience. I think it is like telling au new player of a mmo to diretly buy a max level characters.
I've a main account on the Americas where I have bought all the adventures, 40 classic packs, and ordered the new expansion. The adventures are super fun and give you some great cards. On my Europe and Asia accounts I am free to play. I am saving up gold and plan to do a ton of Arena on those. I'm waiting cause I don't want to get pack rewards that are going out of standard.
Ah k haha, I can only get to rank 15 (with 35 arena wins and 5 as my best arena key then something like 600-800 wins on ladder or whatever it counts on the dailies area)
Diehard druid player ^~^
Check out my theorycrafted Blistering Rot
The sense of entitlement is strong with this one whew
Anyway, aside from the fact that you compared HS to a Moba (which is wrong btw since the game are very different to the core so their F2P model cannot be interchanged/compared), I can relate to the struggle of not being able to play with friends who just started. This has something to do with the game design really. While MobAs are actually built for friends to play together regardless of background/experience, HS is more akin to a MMORPG. While a part of HS is playing the games, another part of it is the experience of growing your collection and experiencing the cards you get along the way. Of course you can opt out of the "experiencing" part and just buy all the packs in one get go.
Like RPGs, you really can't play the same game with a Lvl 1 friend using your Lvl 99 character unless you start again also. But then again, repeating will get kind of bland since you already experienced it right? In this sentiment, I really can't agree of making all the cards accessible since it would become a watered down MobA style in cards (then why not play a MobA itself then) and that would get boring fast for most players. HS was not meant that way.
And to answer your question, F2P is hard and long but the experience of playing the game for the new players is kinda essential.
PS. On the point of game immersion, building your card collection is similar to LoL and HotS limiting your hero pool oppose to DotA 2 with your full hero collection. Either one is fine, but saying that DotA 2 is better since you are able to play all heroes at the start is arguable (I like DotA 2 more) since you are disregarding other aspects of limiting/building up your runes and hero pool.
I love scrubs
To be quick and a little blunt, the entire point to a card collecting game is to collect cards. It's honestly the same as not wanting to fight against other players in a PvP game. It's a core concept of the game. Even if it were 100% free, the packs would remain along with the progression system of collecting cards over time.
(sidenote guaranteed cards already exist via dust. We have two systems of card gaining: packs with gold and crafting specific cards)
So yes, why would a person want to play for hundreds of hours before being able to just do whatever they want with whatever cards they want? You described the entire card collecting community.. and any other progression based community. There's millions of us who play this game for just that. #*)$# I'd be bored with the game if i had every card just handed to me. That's why I'm here and not in a game that does that.
The question is really this: areYOu one of those people who likes that.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I'm asking "Could a card game work without paying options, and therefore collecting cards over time? With a focus on deck building not collecting".
Please read what I said below too =)
Quite an ironic way to start your response if you ask me.
You can compare the games, and the proof is that I did. Even if they're not 100% equal, they share some things in common.
I see your point in a Level1 vs a Level99. However, consider WoW, maybe Vanilla WoW because today is just easy to get levels. But still, Vanilla WoW.
You have your main, spent months to get to max level and a new friend starts playing. You can't play with him, but you can start an alt that will be - even if the quests and leveling spots are the same - a new "adventure" since it's a completely different class and it will be played completely different than your main.
However, imagine that WoW is like Hearthstone. You create a new alt to play with your friend. However, everytime you level up, instead of getting something for your class, you get a Level Pack. Which might or might not help you. You could get a lvl10 weapon with 10 attack and your friend get a lvl15 Legendary with 300.
That's my point. The progression of a F2P is random. Hey you like Druid? Here's 5 paladin cards.
I'm not saying FOR SURE give them all the cards at once. It's overwhelming.
But maybe give MORE cards, or an option to choose which card you get (like every 10 levels in a class you get to choose a legendary, or something like that, just an example)
Someway where YOU can choose your build, or your deck in this case.
And that's why the first thing I said is leaving the nostalgia of opening packs aside. Because what I'm "proposing" would obviously not work with bought card packs.
I'm saying something more linear, much like leveling in an RPG. Instead of getting level12 with Warrior and getting a random card, maybe you get like 6 cards and you can pick two and the 6 cards are maybe random, to still give the pack opening feeling. Or you get to choose if you want 3 commons or 1 epic card, etc.
Something to take away the random factor of the F2P player that can't or won't get his card by sheer number of packs opened.
I'm asking a "What if" question. Your answer is like "Hey! That would never happen!". Doesn't matter! What if????????
Also read above, I'm not saying to give away every card instantly. Progression keeps the players interested in the game.
I'm saying give players more freedom of choice instead on how they wanna progress.
And yes, collecting is fine, as I said I've been playing since closed beta so collecting cards for me lost it's fun a while ago. I bought like the packs when new expansions came out just so I could get right into deckbuilding.
So yeah, I consider Deckbuilding >>>>>> (Much much more important than) Collecting. (and that's my opinion, I'm not saying it is the best for the game or whatnot, I just love deckbuilding and collecting doesn't interest ME, you can totally disagree, just stay on point when discussing because this is not a Collecting vs Not Collecting topic)
I love watching weird decks made by Hobbs and getting inspiration by them.
I loved when I saw more rogue mill cards (with gang-up and whatnot)
My point being: What keeps me in the game is the factor that I have all the cards and can build whatever I want with them.
If I had to start playing again from scratch, I wouldn't.
And it is BECAUSE of that reasoning/feeling of mine that I asked the "what if" question: "Would hearthstone work as a F2P game".
And it is ALSO why I started the topic with "Removing the nostalgia of opening booster packs from the equation," so I don't get why you're bringing to the table the collecting factor.
And ALSO why I said this was more of a thought exercise, just to think about how would a card game go about if they wanted to remove the randomness of booster opening.
I know that there are people who play to collect. And that's why I pointed out very early to remove that from the equation. It's an what if question, not a "let's change hearthstone forever, right now. #makehearthstonegreatagain"
If you've been playing league since it released, sure it's F2P.
If you are new? Getting a page of runes and the 40 or so heroes needed to play before the meta changes is outside feasibility.
Also "Collecting" is really important to tcgs, not in the throw money at it since but in the sense it allows for a controlled discovery of cards, that feeling of finding a card just PERFECT for an existing deck, or that inspires a new deck. Those are very important to the whole deckbuilding paradigm.
But the question boils down to, is there enough money for hearthstone's profitability in speed ups and cosmetics. The answer is, we don't know because no one has tried a tcg like that and it would be a major risk to make it.
Because you are asking about hearthstone. Hearthstone can never become a non-collecting game.
Now as to card games in general, yes they exist. There's supposed to be a term for them but I can't remember it (it's not a CCG or TCG since the second C, collecting, doesn't exist). But games where you have everything from the start exist.
As far as
It would have to be built from the ground up. Everything about hearthstone is designed around the concept of progression, of starting with limited pools and building them up over time. It's designed specifically FOR players, like myself, who WANT to open packs. Thus the 'Collection' talk.
You can make a game, from the start, that doesn't rely on opening boosters and not having all of the cards. However, you can't really take an already established game and turn it into one. Not only would so much of the game, including quests, the concepts of gold and dust, the way expansions are handled, and even balancing the cards themselves, have to be changed, but it would alienate the playerbase. Note that one of the biggest complaints about the format system was that people would be blocked from spending more money to buy old packs. Some of the most popular hearthstone videos out there are pack opening ones.
Put that into perspective. The playerbase is so hyped up over the concept of booster packs that they will watch, not play, watch other people opening up hundreds of packs. Note again, not PLAYING the cards, not discussing or designing decks. Over an hour of just "open pack" "look at cards" "open packs" repeat.
Basically, you are a noncollector in a game about collecting for collectors. Which is why the mention of removing that aspect is bringing the heat. It's like if someone asked for LoL to put in random hero boxes (pay $2 and get a random hero!) as the only way to get heros.
To sum up:
What you are asking doesn't sound like F2P but "get everything at once." or "no collector' mode.
Card games without collector systems exist. They aren't burning the charts but they exist. It's veyr much possible to make such a game.
Hearthstone would not be able to turn into such a game without a complete overhaul of most of its systems. It also would basically ruin itself by doing so as its playerbase would run for the hills since changing the core elements of a game after release is a Bad Idea.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
My point is in LoL you can CHOOSE the champion you wanna buy or the runes you'll get. So even if you have just started out, in a month or so you can have a single champion that will have the same starting stats as someone who would compete at a tournament (runes and masteries) and the focus would be on knowledge and skill, not having better stats.
An analogy: If you instead of picking champions (to purchase) and runes, you'd get a "Pack" that unlocked a Random Champion for you, and another that unlocked Random Runes.
No one would play the game.
Why in one platform it is as you said a good "feeling of finding a card just PERFECT" and the other would be "Hey I like support. Here's Rengar", or "Hey at least I got Rengar, here's Mana Regen Runes".
For me it is not fun to open (or watch my friend open) pack after pack just to find random cards that may help me now or 6 months from now when they are relevant or I have enough cards like the one I opened to make a deck.
However, I do agree with you that Dota and LoL have much more in the way of "eye candy potential" since you have skills and whatnot. But I could argue that you could have much more skins with much better effects for classes on HS than we do today.
And again, maybe not remove the payment option altogether. Just like you can buy IP Boosters so you farm IP faster in League you could buy some booster that would affect the rate in which you get more stuff.
The problem (for me) is reaching the content and progressing. Not the payment option.
For example, if you want Ragnaros, it could be tomorrow when you get it, it could be in a week or months.
If you want a champion in League, you know how long till you get your new champion you wanna try out (not to mention free week), or runes, etc.
Also when you're starting out, you won't dust everything. Most cards will be usefull (eventually). Because all others (you start with) suck. So accumulating 1600 dust is really hard when you're starting out (for say that staple Dr.7 that ruled so far). Hey you want Dr.7? Here's Antonidas. Hope you have all that good epics and mage cards to make a nice deck that works with it, because you sure as hell shouldn't dust him.
Or you scrap cards you don't have spares, but don't need RIGHT now. And that's just sad.
No I am not saying that you should have ZERO progression. I'm also not saying we should CHANGE Hearthstone right now. I blatantly said that right here:
Have a card game (and it could be HS, now, before, past, future, etc) that you can choose DIRECTLY which card you want next.
You'd still have progression. You'd still have collection. It just wouldn't be RNG.
(off topic) And now that I think about it... The most hated thing (after Faceistheplace) in HS is RNG(feelsbad) and yet the whole progress is dependable on it. Ironic lol. Is like saying DAMN THOSE 100% RNG BRAWL every week, but then YAY SO FUN TO OPEN PACKS! WHATDYA KNOW?? I GOT NOTHING USEFULL! What a time to be alive!
I think many aren't addressing the question. Yes many ftp players here, and we are doing fine. That isn't the point.
The TC is saying everyone starts the same essentially. With every card. So everyone can build every deck, so everyone is on completely even ground. Like in a fighting game, or RTS, or most other competitive games.
Now is this financially feasible, could the game stay afloat with skin purchases, perhaps alternate cardback purchases, unique emotes, other aesthetic options? Blizzard and Wow has a massive fanbase, so certainly it could. Dota 2 is completely ftp, no disadvantages, and it pulls in 18 million dollars a month.