Had a debate with my best friend not too many minutes ago, watching Jotto's Hearthstone Weekly #5, covering things from the Limited Format tournament that ManaGrind hosted this weekend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ8I2IQjcd8 The debate sparked after the Top 5 neutral cards used in the Top 8 were covered.
He was arguing that the 30 card limit stifles originality and creativity in strategy and I tried... tried... so hard, to make him aware of a few facts of the Hearthstone metagame that rendered his argument null.
His idea sounded a lot like what he knew from the days when he played the World of Warcraft MMO (he had to quit and has never gone back since some time into WotLK) when people looked down on you, called you unsavory names, and sometimes went to more trouble than justifiable to convince you that your way of doing things was "less than" for pulling off original or novelty playstyles with your class. Even if you were really good at it and coming out on top from all your unexpected ways, didn't matter - LERN 2 PLAY, your "supposed" to do this-that-and-the-other-thing; no ifs, ands, or buts. He had to take the time to pwn a few such high-and-mighty losers a few times before they backed off and shut up. His argument, admittedly, was that this would carry over into Hearthstone, that if you didn't have this-and-such core class card, or neutral card, in your deck you were going to be seen as "doing it wrong" and would be dubbed "less than" or a n00b by the wider community, and this kind of pressure would only lead to cookie-cutter decks, like cookie-cutter specs, and lead in to boredom.
I was shocked because he's veteran MTG and should've known better, in my mind. Unless they do things differently in that game, but I will not derail my own topic by talking about another game that isn't Hearthstone here. I pointed out to him, since I've been following Hearthstone since it was announced (and he hasn't) that such things simply were not the case in the community. The card limit forced one to make careful choices, and then others to counter that, and then you to counter that, and that the evolution of the meta was pretty ongoing. The social pressure in Hearthstone has not been towards cookie-cutters, but from what I've seen and know, is actually the pressure to go towards originality. You're under pressure to do something unexpected. Come up with something new to bring down this, or an unexpected way to counter that. How quickly can you vanquish your foe? Conversely, how long can you drag out your opponent's suffering? Will you add insult to injury, just for kicks? Is there a theme you feel like running? How far can you blend archetypes? You're only looked at sideways if you start following that which is predictable, and not breaking from it. It's also not exactly smiled on to just copy what everyone else is doing and not even bother to think up your own strategic ideas for what a card can do.
His response: "We shall see. As they say, the proof is in the pudding." Gaaaah. :P Not very heartening.
Any words on this from anyone? Where have you seen the metagame and social pressure going, in light of the strategies you have to pull out of your head, given the card limit?
I agree with what he said in WoW but it doesn't quite apply in this game. In MtG there were decks that were considered good in tourney play but no deck was really considered the best, with very few exceptions, because there were simple counters to most decks you just didn't know what you were gonna play against mostly.
If a certain deck style becomes extremely popular which probably will happen, I will definitely start to run a counter deck all the time for it.
There will be cards that everyone picks up all the time and there will be cards that no one ever picks this is how card games work. As far as every deck being identical like talents in WoW, I highly doubt it maybe they will be similar at some point but the remedy to when they all get to stale is to release more cards and throw everything in to Chaos.
I have some staple cards for every class, but it's more like because they are generally useful for my playstyle not because it's everyone's must have. From what I've seen, pople try to make as diverse decks as possiblebecause there are only a few (hundred) players who play HS on cockatrice, so everyone tries to make something uniqe. When HS will finally gets realeased, some "cookie-cutter" decks are bound to surface with x % winrates and such, but the constant shift of the metagame will prevent any kind of hard lined deckbuilding.
I think some cookie cutter builds will come forth. It's almost inevitable. People gravitate towards using a guide to tell them what to do when things are new and unfamiliar OR when they feel their own attempts don't work, or aren't getting them enough wins.
I don't think that will mean there's going to be strictly cookie cutter decks though. Like other's said the shifting meta game will make sure that there's no 100% sure thing that can't be countered and will be THE solution. If you get 1 deck type on 1 hero that's too good people will start shifting to decks that counter it. Not to mention Blizzard will balance, and rebalance the game as much as necessary to make sure there is no 1 deck that is sure fire win.
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This game will definitely have a large playerbase using cookie cutter decks. That being said, the game also has The Arena mode that will encourage people to try new things, possibly.
One thing that I can say for sure, is that even with a limited card collection, the game is very competitive. The developers also stated that some alpha testers have been running competitive decks with purely common cards, in contrast to other developers with rares and epics.
tl;dr There will be cookie cutter, but can be competitive without.
"CC" will always be an issue, The Game Developer (and to a smaller extent) the player base should acknowledge this fact. Also though, in acknowledging this the game plays very well and unique enough at the moment.
The Limited tournament and play style brought to light cards that were great, but just overlooked when you throw in Legendaries/Epics. Those cards will get played more as more combo / meta games are developed.
The great test is if the meta game can change at least twice per cycle (cycle being game release, and following Expansions) with new cards for a new meta game, and the counter deck.
I have faith in the game, and if all fails, The Arena will never get old.
One thing that really surprised me though was his attitude toward social pressure - be it positive or negative - in the meta. Seemed pretty convinced that some of that elitist snootery from WoW will be a presence in Hearthstone. And there was me saying, "No, it's not predominantly like that at all." Instead of "This way or you suck, regardless of anything," as seen in WoW, it's rather "I see you doing it that way, and you're winning, why is that?" And sometimes that question will lead to a few cookie cutters - admittedly - because people like to do what works, and then the meta changes again with new ideas to win against that change. But the social pressure leans more towards ideas and innovation, or if not that, then learning and building on what's already solid for now, usually in the form of friendly advice - which is a positive direction. I wouldn't say that creativity is stifled at all. I think it's encouraged, in fact. I have yet to see any "doing it wr0ng" kind of remarks in regards to a person's deck and what they're aim with it is... Unless someone eventually sees some Hearthstone equivalent of an armory page and starts pulling the "doing it wrong, f*n noob" spiel on someone who has a lower win rate than they do in X play mode. :P But I'm also hoping that enough fine upstanding community members and managers will be quite clear on how far that sort of thing will be generally tolerated.
It'll be impossible to avoid any sort of social pressure when it comes to deck theory, but if Hearthstone becomes anything like what M:tG has, it's more likely that the "rogue", non-cookie-cutter players will be the more aggressive party when trying to impose their views. It's a noble goal for sure, to be able to create a deck of your very own design and do well with it, but it's also something very few have a talent for.
Net-decking will always be a part of any card game like this, though for the most part I don't believe people are going to maliciously go out of their way to tell others they are "doing it wrong" if they don't use proven decks.
Well with ingame communication limited to a few emotes I don't think people will have much to say to eachother anyway.
If you mean outside the game, in the forums and such, then meh, people are bound to discuss decks and call eachother out on things for sure. Doesn't need to lead to a toxic community, but it will likely lead to a community that will ask you to prove what you say. That's not a bad thign, I feel.
If it will lead to more CC builds, cause people are unwilling to break from the norm, I don't know. I don't think so. The meta game will likely be a natural progression thing, with a trickle down effect. Especially if people are going to be streaming the game a lot and watching streams a lot it's going to be common knowledge pretty soon, when people shift towards different decks.
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OP Point: Top 5 neutral cards used in the Top 8 were covered. I think this is nuts and berries of the cookie cutter Arena argument. Class Abilities and Class commons (ie the likely cards you will see) will be the basis of all cookie cutter builds and those builds will desire particular commons. There is obviously going to be overlap in these archetypes as some neutrals will be useful in practically any deck
But ultimately since there is no interaction with other players when creating a deck in Arena, win losses could come down to simply choosing a class, following an archetype and never seeing the cards you need - rather than basing your deck on the choices others have made and a knowledge of the cards being circulated.
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Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
I think the cookie-cutters have already started. Honostly I can't think of a priest without mind control or a shaman without feral spirits or a druid without innervate. I don't think there is anything that can be done to change these other than maybe someone making a powerful deck combo deck that doesn't need them.
It will be impossible to negate and/or ignore cookie cutter builds specifically for constructed. This happens in almost every game whether it is a card game, a moba an mmo etc... Though people might set certain trends in constructed it does not mean that the meta itself will be immobilized seeing that updates on cards and classes will occur. Also as it has already been mentioned Arena will be the perfect mod tot ry out new strategies and archetypes. All in all I would not worry about it to much 8)
CC decks are what make me enjoy the Arena style play even more. I like competing with standard decks, but I enjoy draft style play even more. There will always be a meta game. In the end it is your choice on the deck so don't let anyone tell you what you should or should not do.
Instead of focusing on the staples and then saying "Everything is cookie cutter!" focus on the cards that not every deck is running that are still good in the right deck. Of course every Shaman has Feral Spirits: It's extremely powerful, regardless of your shaman build. Every class, as far as I can tell, has at least 1 or 2 staples. Then there are neutral staples, such as Senjin Shieldmasta, that show up in every deck of a certain type. Rather than complaining about those, be glad that there are cards like Bloodmage Thalnos and Big Game Hunter: Cards that are powerful in the right deck, but certainly aren't everywhere. As more cards are released, there will be more things to compete for the "4 mana taunt" slot, and Senjin will perhaps become less popular. Unless many more class cards are also released though, I do expect that many of the class staples are here to stay.
Competitive players will find what the best cards, best card combinations, and therefore best decks are. It isn't going to be because they say it's the best, and because the community just all listens to them, its going to be because the format (at least with this small of a card pool) will be solved figured out and understood. Calling it "cookie cutter" and being upset is silly, IMO.
I was talking about this with my spouse last night. I think it's inevitable that theorycrafting will result in some "cookiecutter" (for lack of a better term) decks especially at higher levels, but I also think (hope) it's possible for the game to not be limited to those. I think it's more likely the game ends up with powerful must-have cards or card combos, while still allowing a variety of builds.
I haven't played any of the other really popular TCGs but I did play M:TG pretty extensively years and years and years and years ago, and while there were also certain builds that were popular or card combos that were good, there never really ended up being any one prevailing deck because so many things had counters, and those counters and counters. I wouldn't be surprised if other games were similar, and hopefully Hearthstone will end up the same.
That said, a lot of those games had their hayday before the internet was widely used and now it is a lot faster to disseminate information, so it will probably at least be more likely for HS.
Playing with more than 30 cards would result in a worse deck; people will always play with the smallest feasible number of cards they can because that removes randomness. That is why in competitive Magic the Gathering you never see decks with more than 60 cards for constructed play. The 30 card limit is also essential in Hearthstone since it puts a hard limit on the duration of a game since when you run out of cards you start losing life.
That said, in casual magic the gathering decks over 60 cards are fun and often very unique. I imagine as hearthstone grows they will add more formats and hopefully one of those is a freeform of sorts with no card limits, because it would be fun to see what people do with that. At the start of the game there is no place for it though, and large decks will never see competitive play of any sort.
Dont you guys feel that the class specific cards SHOULD be in a cookie-cutter build? I mean, what use are the heroes otherwise. I just hope the heroes balance out equally.
I wouldn't even call it "cookie cutter" to want to use the class-specific cards in a deck. If you're playing a Mage, you'll tend to pick up Arcane Intellect; if you're playing a Shaman, you'll tend to pick up Feral Spirit; if you're playing a Rogue, you'll tend to pick up Eviscerate; etc. I think where the perceived "danger" of cookie cutter builds comes in (not that I agree), is in a homogenization of neutral cards (everyone picks up 2 Sunwalkers, 2 Sen'jins, etc.).
With 30 cards HS has half the amount of cards that are in a constructed MtG deck. But HS also allows only 1-2 cards of each card within the deck where other TCGs allow more cards. Also HS has a more simple mana system. Other games have different types of mana or currency and different means of acquiring it - like lands with MtG. Having ~20 lands in your 60 card MtG reduces the actual cards to 40 - opposed to 30 in HS.
My main concern is, that ony one mana type and several abilities to draw additional cards from your library might run you out of cards too soon or make games quite quick. I enjoy quick games but I also enjoy thos long lasting defensive wallins :)
bye, Darky
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Had a debate with my best friend not too many minutes ago, watching Jotto's Hearthstone Weekly #5, covering things from the Limited Format tournament that ManaGrind hosted this weekend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ8I2IQjcd8
The debate sparked after the Top 5 neutral cards used in the Top 8 were covered.
He was arguing that the 30 card limit stifles originality and creativity in strategy and I tried... tried... so hard, to make him aware of a few facts of the Hearthstone metagame that rendered his argument null.
His idea sounded a lot like what he knew from the days when he played the World of Warcraft MMO (he had to quit and has never gone back since some time into WotLK) when people looked down on you, called you unsavory names, and sometimes went to more trouble than justifiable to convince you that your way of doing things was "less than" for pulling off original or novelty playstyles with your class. Even if you were really good at it and coming out on top from all your unexpected ways, didn't matter - LERN 2 PLAY, your "supposed" to do this-that-and-the-other-thing; no ifs, ands, or buts. He had to take the time to pwn a few such high-and-mighty losers a few times before they backed off and shut up.
His argument, admittedly, was that this would carry over into Hearthstone, that if you didn't have this-and-such core class card, or neutral card, in your deck you were going to be seen as "doing it wrong" and would be dubbed "less than" or a n00b by the wider community, and this kind of pressure would only lead to cookie-cutter decks, like cookie-cutter specs, and lead in to boredom.
I was shocked because he's veteran MTG and should've known better, in my mind. Unless they do things differently in that game, but I will not derail my own topic by talking about another game that isn't Hearthstone here.
I pointed out to him, since I've been following Hearthstone since it was announced (and he hasn't) that such things simply were not the case in the community. The card limit forced one to make careful choices, and then others to counter that, and then you to counter that, and that the evolution of the meta was pretty ongoing.
The social pressure in Hearthstone has not been towards cookie-cutters, but from what I've seen and know, is actually the pressure to go towards originality.
You're under pressure to do something unexpected. Come up with something new to bring down this, or an unexpected way to counter that. How quickly can you vanquish your foe? Conversely, how long can you drag out your opponent's suffering? Will you add insult to injury, just for kicks? Is there a theme you feel like running? How far can you blend archetypes?
You're only looked at sideways if you start following that which is predictable, and not breaking from it. It's also not exactly smiled on to just copy what everyone else is doing and not even bother to think up your own strategic ideas for what a card can do.
His response: "We shall see. As they say, the proof is in the pudding."
Gaaaah. :P Not very heartening.
Any words on this from anyone? Where have you seen the metagame and social pressure going, in light of the strategies you have to pull out of your head, given the card limit?
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I agree with what he said in WoW but it doesn't quite apply in this game. In MtG there were decks that were considered good in tourney play but no deck was really considered the best, with very few exceptions, because there were simple counters to most decks you just didn't know what you were gonna play against mostly.
If a certain deck style becomes extremely popular which probably will happen, I will definitely start to run a counter deck all the time for it.
There will be cards that everyone picks up all the time and there will be cards that no one ever picks this is how card games work. As far as every deck being identical like talents in WoW, I highly doubt it maybe they will be similar at some point but the remedy to when they all get to stale is to release more cards and throw everything in to Chaos.
I have some staple cards for every class, but it's more like because they are generally useful for my playstyle not because it's everyone's must have. From what I've seen, pople try to make as diverse decks as possiblebecause there are only a few (hundred) players who play HS on cockatrice, so everyone tries to make something uniqe. When HS will finally gets realeased, some "cookie-cutter" decks are bound to surface with x % winrates and such, but the constant shift of the metagame will prevent any kind of hard lined deckbuilding.
I think some cookie cutter builds will come forth. It's almost inevitable. People gravitate towards using a guide to tell them what to do when things are new and unfamiliar OR when they feel their own attempts don't work, or aren't getting them enough wins.
I don't think that will mean there's going to be strictly cookie cutter decks though. Like other's said the shifting meta game will make sure that there's no 100% sure thing that can't be countered and will be THE solution. If you get 1 deck type on 1 hero that's too good people will start shifting to decks that counter it. Not to mention Blizzard will balance, and rebalance the game as much as necessary to make sure there is no 1 deck that is sure fire win.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
This game will definitely have a large playerbase using cookie cutter decks. That being said, the game also has The Arena mode that will encourage people to try new things, possibly.
One thing that I can say for sure, is that even with a limited card collection, the game is very competitive. The developers also stated that some alpha testers have been running competitive decks with purely common cards, in contrast to other developers with rares and epics.
tl;dr There will be cookie cutter, but can be competitive without.
"CC" will always be an issue, The Game Developer (and to a smaller extent) the player base should acknowledge this fact. Also though, in acknowledging this the game plays very well and unique enough at the moment.
The Limited tournament and play style brought to light cards that were great, but just overlooked when you throw in Legendaries/Epics. Those cards will get played more as more combo / meta games are developed.
The great test is if the meta game can change at least twice per cycle (cycle being game release, and following Expansions) with new cards for a new meta game, and the counter deck.
I have faith in the game, and if all fails, The Arena will never get old.
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One thing that really surprised me though was his attitude toward social pressure - be it positive or negative - in the meta.
Seemed pretty convinced that some of that elitist snootery from WoW will be a presence in Hearthstone. And there was me saying, "No, it's not predominantly like that at all." Instead of "This way or you suck, regardless of anything," as seen in WoW, it's rather "I see you doing it that way, and you're winning, why is that?"
And sometimes that question will lead to a few cookie cutters - admittedly - because people like to do what works, and then the meta changes again with new ideas to win against that change.
But the social pressure leans more towards ideas and innovation, or if not that, then learning and building on what's already solid for now, usually in the form of friendly advice - which is a positive direction. I wouldn't say that creativity is stifled at all. I think it's encouraged, in fact.
I have yet to see any "doing it wr0ng" kind of remarks in regards to a person's deck and what they're aim with it is... Unless someone eventually sees some Hearthstone equivalent of an armory page and starts pulling the "doing it wrong, f*n noob" spiel on someone who has a lower win rate than they do in X play mode. :P But I'm also hoping that enough fine upstanding community members and managers will be quite clear on how far that sort of thing will be generally tolerated.
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It'll be impossible to avoid any sort of social pressure when it comes to deck theory, but if Hearthstone becomes anything like what M:tG has, it's more likely that the "rogue", non-cookie-cutter players will be the more aggressive party when trying to impose their views. It's a noble goal for sure, to be able to create a deck of your very own design and do well with it, but it's also something very few have a talent for.
Net-decking will always be a part of any card game like this, though for the most part I don't believe people are going to maliciously go out of their way to tell others they are "doing it wrong" if they don't use proven decks.
Well with ingame communication limited to a few emotes I don't think people will have much to say to eachother anyway.
If you mean outside the game, in the forums and such, then meh, people are bound to discuss decks and call eachother out on things for sure. Doesn't need to lead to a toxic community, but it will likely lead to a community that will ask you to prove what you say. That's not a bad thign, I feel.
If it will lead to more CC builds, cause people are unwilling to break from the norm, I don't know. I don't think so. The meta game will likely be a natural progression thing, with a trickle down effect. Especially if people are going to be streaming the game a lot and watching streams a lot it's going to be common knowledge pretty soon, when people shift towards different decks.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
OP Point: Top 5 neutral cards used in the Top 8 were covered.
I think this is nuts and berries of the cookie cutter Arena argument.
Class Abilities and Class commons (ie the likely cards you will see) will be the basis of all cookie cutter builds and those builds will desire particular commons.
There is obviously going to be overlap in these archetypes as some neutrals will be useful in practically any deck
But ultimately since there is no interaction with other players when creating a deck in Arena, win losses could come down to simply choosing a class, following an archetype and never seeing the cards you need - rather than basing your deck on the choices others have made and a knowledge of the cards being circulated.
Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
I think the cookie-cutters have already started. Honostly I can't think of a priest without mind control or a shaman without feral spirits or a druid without innervate. I don't think there is anything that can be done to change these other than maybe someone making a powerful deck combo deck that doesn't need them.
Let me change your mind
It will be impossible to negate and/or ignore cookie cutter builds specifically for constructed. This happens in almost every game whether it is a card game, a moba an mmo etc... Though people might set certain trends in constructed it does not mean that the meta itself will be immobilized seeing that updates on cards and classes will occur. Also as it has already been mentioned Arena will be the perfect mod tot ry out new strategies and archetypes. All in all I would not worry about it to much 8)
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CC decks are what make me enjoy the Arena style play even more. I like competing with standard decks, but I enjoy draft style play even more. There will always be a meta game. In the end it is your choice on the deck so don't let anyone tell you what you should or should not do.
Instead of focusing on the staples and then saying "Everything is cookie cutter!" focus on the cards that not every deck is running that are still good in the right deck. Of course every Shaman has Feral Spirits: It's extremely powerful, regardless of your shaman build. Every class, as far as I can tell, has at least 1 or 2 staples. Then there are neutral staples, such as Senjin Shieldmasta, that show up in every deck of a certain type. Rather than complaining about those, be glad that there are cards like Bloodmage Thalnos and Big Game Hunter: Cards that are powerful in the right deck, but certainly aren't everywhere. As more cards are released, there will be more things to compete for the "4 mana taunt" slot, and Senjin will perhaps become less popular. Unless many more class cards are also released though, I do expect that many of the class staples are here to stay.
Competitive players will find what the best cards, best card combinations, and therefore best decks are. It isn't going to be because they say it's the best, and because the community just all listens to them, its going to be because the format (at least with this small of a card pool) will be solved figured out and understood. Calling it "cookie cutter" and being upset is silly, IMO.
I was talking about this with my spouse last night. I think it's inevitable that theorycrafting will result in some "cookiecutter" (for lack of a better term) decks especially at higher levels, but I also think (hope) it's possible for the game to not be limited to those. I think it's more likely the game ends up with powerful must-have cards or card combos, while still allowing a variety of builds.
I haven't played any of the other really popular TCGs but I did play M:TG pretty extensively years and years and years and years ago, and while there were also certain builds that were popular or card combos that were good, there never really ended up being any one prevailing deck because so many things had counters, and those counters and counters. I wouldn't be surprised if other games were similar, and hopefully Hearthstone will end up the same.
That said, a lot of those games had their hayday before the internet was widely used and now it is a lot faster to disseminate information, so it will probably at least be more likely for HS.
Playing with more than 30 cards would result in a worse deck; people will always play with the smallest feasible number of cards they can because that removes randomness. That is why in competitive Magic the Gathering you never see decks with more than 60 cards for constructed play. The 30 card limit is also essential in Hearthstone since it puts a hard limit on the duration of a game since when you run out of cards you start losing life.
That said, in casual magic the gathering decks over 60 cards are fun and often very unique. I imagine as hearthstone grows they will add more formats and hopefully one of those is a freeform of sorts with no card limits, because it would be fun to see what people do with that. At the start of the game there is no place for it though, and large decks will never see competitive play of any sort.
Dont you guys feel that the class specific cards SHOULD be in a cookie-cutter build? I mean, what use are the heroes otherwise. I just hope the heroes balance out equally.
I wouldn't even call it "cookie cutter" to want to use the class-specific cards in a deck. If you're playing a Mage, you'll tend to pick up Arcane Intellect; if you're playing a Shaman, you'll tend to pick up Feral Spirit; if you're playing a Rogue, you'll tend to pick up Eviscerate; etc. I think where the perceived "danger" of cookie cutter builds comes in (not that I agree), is in a homogenization of neutral cards (everyone picks up 2 Sunwalkers, 2 Sen'jins, etc.).
With 30 cards HS has half the amount of cards that are in a constructed MtG deck. But HS also allows only 1-2 cards of each card within the deck where other TCGs allow more cards. Also HS has a more simple mana system. Other games have different types of mana or currency and different means of acquiring it - like lands with MtG. Having ~20 lands in your 60 card MtG reduces the actual cards to 40 - opposed to 30 in HS.
My main concern is, that ony one mana type and several abilities to draw additional cards from your library might run you out of cards too soon or make games quite quick. I enjoy quick games but I also enjoy thos long lasting defensive wallins :)
bye,
Darky