I saw only one other Druid deck, so I decided to try to take a stab at a version of an aggro deck. This is very much a work in progress. I started at 15 and 0 stars and this version is around 50% with a very small sample size. It should play very similarly to your typical Aggro Token deck.
Ninja edit: Sorry, originally had posted an earlier version of this deck. It is corrected now.
After 50 games with all variations of the deck I posted a couple of days ago, I am 23-27 (13-15 with the latest version of the deck). I peaked at 13 and two stars starting from 15 and 0 stars. Obviously still a small sample size. Also, I'm probably at best an average Hearthstone player, so take 23-27 as 23-27 piloted by an average Hearthstone player.
The deck honestly could still use some refinement, but I feel like it can do decently well against the tier 1 meta decks right now. Since the deck has only 2 2-drops, it is imperative to find a 1-drop early or coining into one of the 3-drops, or you are just playing from behind from the start. The deck (just like meta Aggro Druid) depends on having the board and keeping it throughout. The deck understandably struggles against decks that have board clears/ways of reliably gaining tempo. Getting 5-for-1'd or 6-for-1'd is obviously devastating, but I tried to build something that wouldn't automatically be a loss after one wipe. If the game makes it to turn 9, it is difficult to find a win.
Breakdown: Druid: 4-3, (all 7 were against Jade) Hunter: 4-2, (3-2 vs midrange, 1-0 vs other) Mage: 1-5, (0-3 vs tempo, 0-2 vs control, 1-0 vs other) Paladin: 1-3 (0-2 vs control, 0-1 vs handbuff) Priest: 3-2 (2-1 vs razakus, 1-1 vs big) Rogue: 6-5 (4-3 vs tempo, 2-2 vs miracle) Shaman: 2-5 (2-4 vs token, 0-1 vs other) Warlock: 1-1 (0-1 vs control, 1-0 vs zoo) Warrior: 1-1 (1-0 vs control, 0-1 vs taunt)
Not sure it has already been discussed elsewhere, but what about DKs?
They are legendaries, but a new player can get one for free quite easily in Icecrown. A random one, but for free. If they are lucky, it is a fitting DK for them (11% chance).
I say it because some DK, such as Deathstalker Rexxar, can make some decks much more versatile and hence powerful, even if the deck is otherwise really cheap.
Not sure it has already been discussed elsewhere, but what about DKs?
They are legendaries, but a new player can get one for free quite easily in Icecrown. A random one, but for free. If they are lucky, it is a fitting DK for them (11% chance).
I say it because some DK, such as Deathstalker Rexxar, can make some decks much more versatile and hence powerful, even if the deck is otherwise really cheap.
I think the F2P DK decks are equally important but should probably be a separate thread since the decks will only be accessible to 11% of the players. After doing more testing of the decks myself, I'm not convinced that the fully basic/common versions can easily hit rank 5. I have been trying to test the next tier, which I usually call "upgraded" meaning it allows up to 4 rares. You are still limited and can only choose the most powerful of the rares that really boost the deck. One example is Stonehill Defender which is INSANE in paladin since it usually hits the important paladin legendaries.
I think the F2P DK decks are equally important but should probably be a separate thread since the decks will only be accessible to 11% of the players. After doing more testing of the decks myself, I'm not convinced that the fully basic/common versions can easily hit rank 5. I have been trying to test the next tier, which I usually call "upgraded" meaning it allows up to 4 rares. You are still limited and can only choose the most powerful of the rares that really boost the deck. One example is Stonehill Defender which is INSANE in paladin since it usually hits the important paladin legendaries.
Even then a newer player could never take that deck to rank 5. You have to beat all the Rogue variants, Jade Druid and highlander priests along with the decks that target those decks to climb. That is hard to do when you go to the fight on fair footing and the other deck doesn't just draw dead or makes huge errors. Which means you need to play more to learn all the ways you can beat them with your self-depleted toolbox.
I think the original challenge is a good idea. I've tried to get streamers I know to make decks that are at most 800 dust and play them on ladder for a bit. It is a great thought experiment to do because you see what new players go through when they start. The decks that can fit the original criteria or the improved one will still keep a player away from hitting 10 barring external circumstances.
Now that leads to the argument that the gap between new and "competitive" is possibly too large because card collection in this game is insane (over $1 USD per pack). But, that argument is for a different thread.
I think the F2P DK decks are equally important but should probably be a separate thread since the decks will only be accessible to 11% of the players. After doing more testing of the decks myself, I'm not convinced that the fully basic/common versions can easily hit rank 5. I have been trying to test the next tier, which I usually call "upgraded" meaning it allows up to 4 rares. You are still limited and can only choose the most powerful of the rares that really boost the deck. One example is Stonehill Defender which is INSANE in paladin since it usually hits the important paladin legendaries.
Even then a newer player could never take that deck to rank 5. You have to beat all the Rogue variants, Jade Druid and highlander priests along with the decks that target those decks to climb. That is hard to do when you go to the fight on fair footing and the other deck doesn't just draw dead or makes huge errors. Which means you need to play more to learn all the ways you can beat them with your self-depleted toolbox.
I think the original challenge is a good idea. I've tried to get streamers I know to make decks that are at most 800 dust and play them on ladder for a bit. It is a great thought experiment to do because you see what new players go through when they start. The decks that can fit the original criteria or the improved one will still keep a player away from hitting 10 barring external circumstances.
Now that leads to the argument that the gap between new and "competitive" is possibly too large because card collection in this game is insane (over $1 USD per pack). But, that argument is for a different thread.
Yes, I agree that it is still challenging facing fully-optimized Razakus Priest and other tier 1 decks. It didn't used to be the case honestly... Budget zoo decks in the past were able to stay competitive against the top meta decks. I disagree with your statement that the addition of a few rares is insignificant though. I think having those upgrades is the difference between a rank 10 and a rank 5 deck. Discover is so powerful but unfortunately a lot of them are rares, so adding those really boosts the capabilities of the deck (and also gives opportunity to cheat legendaries into play).
Mh, if you started during WotOG, you were given free packs from that set, so technically, that isn't buying. The same argument can be made for e.g. UnGoro or Knights packs hence you only got them for free if you logged in at certain days. I would say, if you really wanna do this challenge justice, do it like in that Tavern Brawl: only Basic cards and Commons and Rares from the Classic set, nothing else.
I don't follow your thinking; your decks in the OP require cards from certain sets, like the Un'goro cards in your Hunter list. C'Thun is a freebie obtained by buying a WotG pack with anything, even just gold, so I don't see why it wouldn't count. I would get not including the Death Knights (despite getting one of those for free as well in that Prologue) since that one's random, but buying any Whispers pack gives everyone C'Thun.
If your reasoning were, say, that then C'Thun would be in every deck, then very well, but if it's just because you have to get a certain set's pack then every deck here should be disqualified. =P
Yes, I agree that it is still challenging facing fully-optimized Razakus Priest and other tier 1 decks. It didn't used to be the case honestly... Budget zoo decks in the past were able to stay competitive against the top meta decks. I disagree with your statement that the addition of a few rares is insignificant though. I think having those upgrades is the difference between a rank 10 and a rank 5 deck. Discover is so powerful but unfortunately a lot of them are rares, so adding those really boosts the capabilities of the deck (and also gives opportunity to cheat legendaries into play).
A Stonehill Defender into Tirion Fordring does not win the game. A Stonehill Defender into a second Tirion Fordring can though. In Un'goro Stonehill Defender was strong not because it could pull one, but it could give you a second copy of the already strong card in your deck. Would rares improve the winrate of the budget decks listed? Yes. Would it make it so you could climb within a month from 20 to 5? No. You'd have to put in a lot of time with the deck with the deck to make it that far in standard. Now this would be different if we were talking about Wild. I do think there are some insane budget decks that you could even hit legend with in WIld. The card limitations in standard currently with the insane gap in card value makes it near impossible to climb to 5 with a budget list.
With that said, I am still talking about new players. A veteran player should be able to make a new account, make a super cheap deck and hit 5 with very little issue if that was the main account you were playing on. A newer player has a lot more details over months to learn before they even had the chance to compete above rank 10 with a super cheap deck.
With that said, I am still talking about new players. A veteran player should be able to make a new account, make a super cheap deck and hit 5 with very little issue if that was the main account you were playing on. A newer player has a lot more details over months to learn before they even had the chance to compete above rank 10 with a super cheap deck.
Thankfully this has been basically proven to be the case, which is why I think this thread is cool. =P
I don't follow your thinking; your decks in the OP require cards from certain sets, like the Un'goro cards in your Hunter list. C'Thun is a freebie obtained by buying a WotG pack with anything, even just gold, so I don't see why it wouldn't count. I would get not including the Death Knights (despite getting one of those for free as well in that Prologue) since that one's random, but buying any Whispers pack gives everyone C'Thun.
If your reasoning were, say, that then C'Thun would be in every deck, then very well, but if it's just because you have to get a certain set's pack then every deck here should be disqualified. =P
Sure, if you really want to you can include C'Thun decks, but the appeal here is that people want to play with newer cards from the newest expansions rather than investing into cards that will rotate out soon. I don't think C'Thun decks are strong without the full suite of support cards and even then it was mainly just Druid and Warrior.
Yes, I agree that it is still challenging facing fully-optimized Razakus Priest and other tier 1 decks. It didn't used to be the case honestly... Budget zoo decks in the past were able to stay competitive against the top meta decks. I disagree with your statement that the addition of a few rares is insignificant though. I think having those upgrades is the difference between a rank 10 and a rank 5 deck. Discover is so powerful but unfortunately a lot of them are rares, so adding those really boosts the capabilities of the deck (and also gives opportunity to cheat legendaries into play).
A Stonehill Defender into Tirion Fordring does not win the game. A Stonehill Defender into a second Tirion Fordring can though. In Un'goro Stonehill Defender was strong not because it could pull one, but it could give you a second copy of the already strong card in your deck. Would rares improve the winrate of the budget decks listed? Yes. Would it make it so you could climb within a month from 20 to 5? No. You'd have to put in a lot of time with the deck with the deck to make it that far in standard. Now this would be different if we were talking about Wild. I do think there are some insane budget decks that you could even hit legend with in WIld. The card limitations in standard currently with the insane gap in card value makes it near impossible to climb to 5 with a budget list.
With that said, I am still talking about new players. A veteran player should be able to make a new account, make a super cheap deck and hit 5 with very little issue if that was the main account you were playing on. A newer player has a lot more details over months to learn before they even had the chance to compete above rank 10 with a super cheap deck.
When you claim that you cannot climb from 20 to 5 with an upgraded budget deck, are you saying that from experience? I'm trying to tell you that from my experience cards like Stonehill Defender to get that well-timed Sunkeeper Tarim win you the game. You do not need 2 Tirion Fordring to win the game... Also Spikeridged Steed is insanely good. The impact-to-dust-cost ratio is insane for these. I think it easily accounts for pushing the win-rate from 50% to 60-65%. I haven't had a chance to spend enough time climbing with it, but I was able to get from 10 to 7 easily last night.
When you claim that you cannot climb from 20 to 5 with an upgraded budget deck, are you saying that from experience?
Again, I am talking about new players. Even those from other, "harder" card games don't come in and make it to 5 with a super cheap deck, or really any deck, without putting in a lot of time. Every new player I have met playing this game is lucky they get 15 in their first month and 10 a month or two down the road unless they invest over 100 hours a month learning the game. Can hitting rank 5 be done as a new player? Of course it can. Will the average new player be able to do it? No.
You have to remember that a new player needs to do more than just find a good, cheap deck list to start becoming competitive at the game. You have to learn all the mechanics, memorize the popular lists of all classes including all the different tech cards they may choose, learn hand reading, resource management, trading, life preservation and etc. to be able to run a budget list effectively. The skills you take for granted now once took a long time for you to learn. That is the point I am trying to make.
You should not be worried about where you end up with the deck as long as you can maintain a positive winrate. Unless your goal was to make decks for "veteran" f2p players who suck at deck tuning, you need to look at how easy your deck is to pick up and what impact can it have on a new player's learning curve. Do your best to look at any list you make from the perspective of knowing nothing about the game, and then look at ways to make it easier to pick up and play without destroying the win conditions.
When you claim that you cannot climb from 20 to 5 with an upgraded budget deck, are you saying that from experience?
Again, I am talking about new players. Even those from other, "harder" card games don't come in and make it to 5 with a super cheap deck, or really any deck, without putting in a lot of time. Every new player I have met playing this game is lucky they get 15 in their first month and 10 a month or two down the road unless they invest over 100 hours a month learning the game. Can hitting rank 5 be done as a new player? Of course it can. Will the average new player be able to do it? No.
You have to remember that a new player needs to do more than just find a good, cheap deck list to start becoming competitive at the game. You have to learn all the mechanics, memorize the popular lists of all classes including all the different tech cards they may choose, learn hand reading, resource management, trading, life preservation and etc. to be able to run a budget list effectively. The skills you take for granted now once took a long time for you to learn. That is the point I am trying to make.
You should not be worried about where you end up with the deck as long as you can maintain a positive winrate. Unless your goal was to make decks for "veteran" f2p players who suck at deck tuning, you need to look at how easy your deck is to pick up and what impact can it have on a new player's learning curve. Do your best to look at any list you make from the perspective of knowing nothing about the game, and then look at ways to make it easier to pick up and play without destroying the win conditions.
Okay, sorry, I think I misunderstood what you're trying to say. Let me clarify what I'm trying to accomplish. I want the game to be skill-limited. I want the ONLY reason a player is not rank 5+ to be because of their incomplete game knowledge, lack of experience, and unrefined skill, NOT because of small card collection. THIS is what I want for the game again. Incredibly high skill cap deck that is affordable to EVERYONE. Does that mean anybody can hit legend with the same deck? Of course not! That's limited by their skill and that's the beauty of it. They have so much room to grow but will not be discouraged that they are limited by their deck collection.
I'm a bit afraid that we are moving towards a P2W environment and meta.
An old quote from the F2P OTK Warrior guide to reiterate my goals here:
Thank you all for the upvotes and feedback! Really happy to see a lot of new (and old) players benefiting from the cheap deck. Of course, I also see that many people are struggling, which is to be expected. I just want to make perfectly clear that a cheap deck does not mean easy-to-play or even "beginner-friendly." Why do I advertise it as F2P then? Well, it is F2P in the sense that you can pretty much craft the deck within a few hours of a fresh account. That means anybody can have access to it. The success of the player is then not limited to their card collection but by their skill, which is how I think the game should be. It also exposes new players to the depth of the game which may not be as obvious when you play face decks or curve decks like tempo warrior, c'thun druid, midrange hunter, etc. Although these other decks are much easier to play and are less punishing for misplays than combo decks, the sense of reward for playing a more complex deck is just on another level. This is naturally the case with any deck like miracle rogue or freeze mage that runs a lot of card cycle. Having more options and cards means more complex scenarios/decision-making than decks that naturally fall into play-the-topdecked-card-because-I-have-no-card-draw-and-rely-on-luck-to-get-my-curve-all-the-time-and-win-games-and-I-will-now-BM-emote-all-the-time-to-prove-that-I'm-not-a-bot-because-honestly-a-bot-could-play-the-deck-that-I'm-playing.
Okay, sorry, I think I misunderstood what you're trying to say. Let me clarify what I'm trying to accomplish. I want the game to be skill-limited. I want the ONLY reason a player is not rank 5+ to be because of their incomplete game knowledge, lack of experience, and unrefined skill, NOT because of small card collection. THIS is what I want for the game again. Incredibly high skill cap deck that is affordable to EVERYONE. Does that mean anybody can hit legend with the same deck? Of course not! That's limited by their skill and that's the beauty of it. They have so much room to grow but will not be discouraged that they are limited by their deck collection.
I'm a bit afraid that we are moving towards a P2W environment and meta.
If someone has the skill to play someone else's cheap deck effectively to high rank, they should be able to scrap together their own deck. At that point you know a lot about the game and should be able to build and play on your own deck with that level of knowledge. So once again the lists would be most likely picked up by new or casual players. Therefore you should take that into account if you are making lists to help people.
Okay, sorry, I think I misunderstood what you're trying to say. Let me clarify what I'm trying to accomplish. I want the game to be skill-limited. I want the ONLY reason a player is not rank 5+ to be because of their incomplete game knowledge, lack of experience, and unrefined skill, NOT because of small card collection. THIS is what I want for the game again. Incredibly high skill cap deck that is affordable to EVERYONE. Does that mean anybody can hit legend with the same deck? Of course not! That's limited by their skill and that's the beauty of it. They have so much room to grow but will not be discouraged that they are limited by their deck collection.
I'm a bit afraid that we are moving towards a P2W environment and meta.
If someone has the skill to play someone else's cheap deck effectively to high rank, they should be able to scrap together their own deck. At that point you know a lot about the game and should be able to build and play on your own deck with that level of knowledge. So once again the lists would be most likely picked up by new or casual players. Therefore you should take that into account if you are making lists to help people.
I don't understand what you're trying to say about these lists... These are nowhere close in terms of skill-cap as the OTK warrior. These are tempo-style decks that teach new players the basics of the game, and the point is to make the best decks you can with the basic/common cards. How would you design the decks then? What are you trying to say? What should be taken into account when building these lists? I'm really confused about what you are trying to contribute here. What changes are you trying to promote in these decks? I post lots of tutorial videos teaching people how to think about the game and how to make the decisions. What do you find not useful here?
Okay, sorry, I think I misunderstood what you're trying to say. Let me clarify what I'm trying to accomplish. I want the game to be skill-limited. I want the ONLY reason a player is not rank 5+ to be because of their incomplete game knowledge, lack of experience, and unrefined skill, NOT because of small card collection. THIS is what I want for the game again. Incredibly high skill cap deck that is affordable to EVERYONE. Does that mean anybody can hit legend with the same deck? Of course not! That's limited by their skill and that's the beauty of it. They have so much room to grow but will not be discouraged that they are limited by their deck collection.
I'm a bit afraid that we are moving towards a P2W environment and meta.
If someone has the skill to play someone else's cheap deck effectively to high rank, they should be able to scrap together their own deck. At that point you know a lot about the game and should be able to build and play on your own deck with that level of knowledge. So once again the lists would be most likely picked up by new or casual players. Therefore you should take that into account if you are making lists to help people.
Proof that just adding 4 rares makes the world of difference in a deck (went from stuck at rank 10 to climbing quickly to rank 5), and unfortunately it was necessary based on how stacked the meta is with tier 1 decks.
Substitutions:
First Option, Zoolock Version:
-2 Friendly Bartender, -2 Drain Soul, -2 Dire Wolf Alpha, -1 Stubborn Gastropod, +1 Patches, the Pirate, +1 Prince Keleseth, +2 Blood Corsair, +2 Vicious Fledgling, +1 Saronite Chain Gang
-2 Blastcrystal Potion +2 Despicable Dreadlord
-1 Dread Infernal, -2 Abyssal Enforcer, +2 Bonemare, +1 Bloodreaver Gul'dan
-2 Shadowbolt, +2 Defender of Argus
Second Option, Demonlock:
-1 Cobalt Scalebane, +1 Elise, the Trailblaizer/Doomguard/Skulking Geist/Sunwalker
-2 Blastcrystal Potion, -2 Hellfire, -2 Dark Iron Dwarf +1 Prince Valanaar, +2 Tar Creeper, +2 Doomsayer, +1 Gluttonous Ooze
-1 Stubborn Gastropod, +1 The Lich King/Lord Jaraxxus/Abyssal Enforcer
-2 Darkshire Councilman + 2 Twisting Nether
-2 Friendly Bartender +2 Defile
I don't have the time to do the full write up at the moment, but here is a Zoolock I made to help introduce a new player to the game. To make this a viable budget deck if you have rares, drop Frostwolf Warlord for Doomguard, Amani Berserker for Knife Juggler and Shattered Sun Cleric for Defender of Argus.
I saw only one other Druid deck, so I decided to try to take a stab at a version of an aggro deck. This is very much a work in progress. I started at 15 and 0 stars and this version is around 50% with a very small sample size. It should play very similarly to your typical Aggro Token deck.
Ninja edit: Sorry, originally had posted an earlier version of this deck. It is corrected now.
After 50 games with all variations of the deck I posted a couple of days ago, I am 23-27 (13-15 with the latest version of the deck). I peaked at 13 and two stars starting from 15 and 0 stars. Obviously still a small sample size. Also, I'm probably at best an average Hearthstone player, so take 23-27 as 23-27 piloted by an average Hearthstone player.
The deck honestly could still use some refinement, but I feel like it can do decently well against the tier 1 meta decks right now. Since the deck has only 2 2-drops, it is imperative to find a 1-drop early or coining into one of the 3-drops, or you are just playing from behind from the start. The deck (just like meta Aggro Druid) depends on having the board and keeping it throughout. The deck understandably struggles against decks that have board clears/ways of reliably gaining tempo. Getting 5-for-1'd or 6-for-1'd is obviously devastating, but I tried to build something that wouldn't automatically be a loss after one wipe. If the game makes it to turn 9, it is difficult to find a win.
Breakdown:
Druid: 4-3, (all 7 were against Jade)
Hunter: 4-2, (3-2 vs midrange, 1-0 vs other)
Mage: 1-5, (0-3 vs tempo, 0-2 vs control, 1-0 vs other)
Paladin: 1-3 (0-2 vs control, 0-1 vs handbuff)
Priest: 3-2 (2-1 vs razakus, 1-1 vs big)
Rogue: 6-5 (4-3 vs tempo, 2-2 vs miracle)
Shaman: 2-5 (2-4 vs token, 0-1 vs other)
Warlock: 1-1 (0-1 vs control, 1-0 vs zoo)
Warrior: 1-1 (1-0 vs control, 0-1 vs taunt)
Not sure it has already been discussed elsewhere, but what about DKs?
They are legendaries, but a new player can get one for free quite easily in Icecrown. A random one, but for free.
If they are lucky, it is a fitting DK for them (11% chance).
I say it because some DK, such as Deathstalker Rexxar, can make some decks much more versatile and hence powerful, even if the deck is otherwise really cheap.
I think the original challenge is a good idea. I've tried to get streamers I know to make decks that are at most 800 dust and play them on ladder for a bit. It is a great thought experiment to do because you see what new players go through when they start. The decks that can fit the original criteria or the improved one will still keep a player away from hitting 10 barring external circumstances.
An old quote from the F2P OTK Warrior guide to reiterate my goals here: