So I've been making a set of cards, and I've been trying to get around to covering areas that are usually covered with sets, Kezan Mystic being replaced by Eater of Secrets (debatable) being a relative example of filling roles due to rotation and the like. I've been curious for some time what is most lacking in the current meta, what we need more of, or if we need less of something. I think it's an important question that a lot of people should think on at times. Even with that single question, you could find the "Kryptonite Formula" of most Standard players.
What do you guys think?
(I brought this thread here (General Deck Building forum) because the thread is more a focus on cards and cards within a set. The people that post here are likely those that focus most on strategy, and have the most vocal of thoughts/complaints in the entirety of the site. For that reason, the best answers can be found in this forum. If moving this thread is necessary, I will understand.)
A while ago while waiting a bus I decided that I'd have time to play a game before the bus arrived. Well, I was wrong. The game ended up lasting almost half an hour. And the game in no point felt boring, it was so full of meaningful board interaction. The only way to go significantly over half an hour is with fatigue decks and I find that a bit problematic, sometimes I really feel like playing a game that'd last hours and yet feel meaningful.
So what Hearthstone is lacking is mechanics to enable this kind of game play.
Game definitely needs more diversity. The stuff i see on the weekly design competitions and hearthcards blow my mind, and yet everything new is given to us by a spoonful and doesn't feel that innovative. The last thing we got was adapt, which is simply choosing buffs already made long ago. Before that, multi class cards, but only couple of them. Discover was cool, change hero power was cool, but nothing radical is really happening in terms of making the game more awesome.
i mean, i finally pulled a golden legendary [and i don't have that many legendaries period]....and i got Cho. not optimal.
if all legendaries were more balanced with each other i think it would help. i have no problem with legendary>epic>rare>common, even though that does have it's own problems with accessibility, but some common are awesome and some epics/legendaries are total crap. building a collection enough to build viable decks is hard enough, if you like to have one deck per class [like me]. building an actual complete set....that's for people with money and time...
we've all had games where RNGesus kicked us in the Jimmy. your opponent gets great RNG and you get handfuls of dog poop. but that's statistics and true randomness for you, but it does still annoy when it swings 100% against you.
on a side note, a suggested improvement would be that the RNGesus for opening packs made it much more likely you'd get common you DON'T have whenever there is a common. i find it frustrating to STILL not have some Classic commons. but at least they don't cost much dust...
Players who instead of finding a game that suits their tastes, try to change a game to suit their tastes. Also, it has players who feel like they both need to win, and play the style of deck they enjoy most, which means anyone who doesn't play their style should be losing.
Hearthstone is hearthstone. It is a computer CCG that is light hearted and involves a fair bit of randomness to create unexpected situations and outcomes. It is fairly fast, mostly amusing, and simple at its heart.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my gaming blog: Downy Owlbear Designs and download free P&P games. Or argue with me about games on Qallout, the video debate site.
The game is awesome when new cards are release, after few weeks is normal to netdecks broken the variety, Un'Goro was the best expansion so far in this aspect, so what this game need? Release new content more often, a full new expansion every month or in 2 months.
I feel like they went too far with discover. By GvG everyone was complaining there was too much RNG, so they tuned it down a bit in BRM and TGT. But once they released discover in LoE and everyone was "yeah! That's how you do RNG" they just assumed it was ok to keep pushing it more and more, and since some skill comes into play, it's ok. Except that now discover like mechanics are everywhere and it just adds up to an insane amount of RNG.
So, if the game is missing something? Yeah, probably consistence. Cards that don't casually win games because you happened to discover that one thing. I'd much rather lose to a card that its strong by itself but I know exactly what it does and how to play around it than losing to a bag of tricks that might just give my opponent what he/she needs.
It lacks balance changes. Once blizzard sees the meta is stable and becoming stale, probably once a month or so, there should be a sweeping round of nerfs and buffs. We don't need endless new cards - the game gets too expensive and people will quit if they can't keep up, relative to their prior progression. Three full expansions a year is enough.
Netdecking is problem for the game and it isn't going away - this would be the best way to tackle it.
Netdeck or rank 20 is the biggest problem. You can't build you own unique deck with some crazy cards and get high rank. Deckbuilding in this game is just varieties of same decks. Quest rogue/mid pally/miracle priest/aggro druid whatever. People don't build own decks. It's easy to take someone's deck and play it. It's boring. Same decks 4 mouth.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One day this game will stop existing. I can't wait.
Blizzard needs to hire the people who create the cards in the weekly contest here. They make much better card designs than most things Blizzard puts out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You do not truly know someone, until you fight them.....
Don't mind the cards I left with each comment. They're relevant pieces that reflect solutions to some of the game's likely lacking areas. Put every response in spoilers to cut down on space.
A while ago while waiting a bus I decided that I'd have time to play a game before the bus arrived. Well, I was wrong. The game ended up lasting almost half an hour. And the game in no point felt boring, it was so full of meaningful board interaction. The only way to go significantly over half an hour is with fatigue decks and I find that a bit problematic, sometimes I really feel like playing a game that'd last hours and yet feel meaningful.
So what Hearthstone is lacking is mechanics to enable this kind of game play.
Yeah, I don't like the limitation put in place by the game myself, to be honest. Ever going 20-30 draws into fatigue? The game automatically forces a draw. That's really not very fun, in my opinion, because there's so much room we could explore, but we're cut short. Honestly, making a game infinite in possible length. I like the idea of making a game as lengthy as both players can manage. Having a game full of interesting interactions is just the best.
Game definitely needs more diversity. The stuff i see on the weekly design competitions and hearthcards blow my mind, and yet everything new is given to us by a spoonful and doesn't feel that innovative. The last thing we got was adapt, which is simply choosing buffs already made long ago. Before that, multi class cards, but only couple of them. Discover was cool, change hero power was cool, but nothing radical is really happening in terms of making the game more awesome.
When I see a custom card anywhere, if it feels like it's an idea that's plain, bland, nothing new in terms of function, a frown usually overtakes my face. Honestly, it can be hard to really innovate when a number of ideas have already been thought of. While developing my set, I've been trying my best to keep from doing anything that's been done before. I don't think it's okay to just ditch the idea of publishing the usual batch, like "Give a minion +1/+1" as stat changes have been part of many card games, though, it'd be nice that accompanying, miscellaneous cards like Mayor Noggenfogger have seen release. It's good to keep a game fresh, but not at the cost of removing traditional card effects like the occasional buff.
i mean, i finally pulled a golden legendary [and i don't have that many legendaries period]....and i got Cho. not optimal.
if all legendaries were more balanced with each other i think it would help. i have no problem with legendary>epic>rare>common, even though that does have it's own problems with accessibility, but some common are awesome and some epics/legendaries are total crap. building a collection enough to build viable decks is hard enough, if you like to have one deck per class [like me]. building an actual complete set....that's for people with money and time...
we've all had games where RNGesus kicked us in the Jimmy. your opponent gets great RNG and you get handfuls of dog poop. but that's statistics and true randomness for you, but it does still annoy when it swings 100% against you.
on a side note, a suggested improvement would be that the RNGesus for opening packs made it much more likely you'd get common you DON'T have whenever there is a common. i find it frustrating to STILL not have some Classic commons. but at least they don't cost much dust...
Yeah, something I've been trying very hard not to do is give a number of cards a random effect within my set. Don't get me wrong, I love a good deck that's designed around the idea of fun in place of competition. When some of your best competitors, your tournament winners, citing that RNG is a serious problem, you have to really wonder "Is this a problem?" I have some of the most gnarly of offenders in my set, but I took it upon myself to attach penalty to the cards that produce strong effects, and with that same idea came producing enough cards in that pool of results that the most insidious of creations are harder to find. I knew that RNG was a major complaint (also, peep the poll, holy) so I attempted making most of the set a collection of cards that you know what you're getting out of what you're putting into your deck.
Something I've thought that'd be really nice would be tuning the system so that drops are higher when you're newer, to keep new players from feeling like they're being pushed away because the current meta is too strong. When creating my set, I like the idea of making it so smaller collections could compete with larger collections. I don't want to make it super easy for everyone to play, however, I like the idea of making commons and rares feel more impactful. Honestly, I hate that we have cards with no text/effect. Those cards are hardly used in decks, and with no existing synergies with cards that don't have card text, We could do with having those cards stronger, or give that style of play some synergies that work strictly with cards that don't have text.
Players who instead of finding a game that suits their tastes, try to change a game to suit their tastes. Also, it has players who feel like they both need to win, and play the style of deck they enjoy most, which means anyone who doesn't play their style should be losing.
Hearthstone is hearthstone. It is a computer CCG that is light hearted and involves a fair bit of randomness to create unexpected situations and outcomes. It is fairly fast, mostly amusing, and simple at its heart.
This is my favorite response so far, specifically the first part about people changing the game to make them feel more at home. It's like with all those threads about Dirty Rat. The card is purposely polarizing, and I always smile when I see a nerf thread crop up. I don't like making adverse changes to a system unless it's important. The old Savage Roar Druid combo was the only thing I had ever wanted changed because the instant you queue into a match against Druid, it's a near guarantee that you're immediately placed on a countdown of some kind. R&D is handy because of this reason. Blizzard's stance on Combo decks feels a tad strange, I feel. One of my problems with any game is being forced to play into the meta's design. Over-analysis of a game by many people is what generates a meta in part, while the cards in the game will inherently lead to a dominate meta coming about.
Honestly, RNG isn't the worst. I look at it like "Surprise! Wild orcs are attacking your stronghold!" Too much of it, however... should probably move to a different part of Azeroth if the Orcs are that big of a problem.
The game is awesome when new cards are release, after few weeks is normal to netdecks broken the variety, Un'Goro was the best expansion so far in this aspect, so what this game need? Release new content more often, a full new expansion every month or in 2 months.
There's been major concern with the lack of Adventures. There's also been some concern with the game costing players too much money. An example of this was with the Old Gods, everyone got a C'Thun, so everyone was immediately able to join in and become one with the fun. Now with Un'Goro, you have two Legendaries per class. Without a Quest, a Taunt Warrior deck loses to a Taunt Warrior deck that has the Quest (usually). An idea I had was bringing a few new cards into the game once a month. A new card for a number of classes and some neutrals. Highlighting the community's creations could be great by giving them some amount of accessibility. That's something I'd do personally if I could. With a full new expansion every month or two, the game could get to be too much for some, but it's worth it.
I feel like they went too far with discover. By GvG everyone was complaining there was too much RNG, so they tuned it down a bit in BRM and TGT. But once they released discover in LoE and everyone was "yeah! That's how you do RNG" they just assumed it was ok to keep pushing it more and more, and since some skill comes into play, it's ok. Except that now discover like mechanics are everywhere and it just adds up to an insane amount of RNG.
So, if the game is missing something? Yeah, probably consistence. Cards that don't casually win games because you happened to discover that one thing. I'd much rather lose to a card that its strong by itself but I know exactly what it does and how to play around it than losing to a bag of tricks that might just give my opponent what he/she needs.
My 2 cents
It's odd, when you think about it, how much two cents are worth these days. I enjoy Discover so much, I created two threads on this site, a thread per expansion (Old Gods and Gadgetzan) that shows you exactly what you'd get from a Discover with each of those individual expansions. THAT is how much I like Discover. It's RNG to a fine degree, just with more control over it. I agree with the thought that it's the correct way to do RNG, because it's not entirely bullshit. Jeweled Scarab and Netherspite Historian are the ACTUAL correct ways to pull off Discover, I feel, same with Arch-Thief Rafaam, only because it's not "Discover a Spell" but that those cards had either a small pool of fixed outcomes, or because there was a requirement.
In regards to Discover casually granting a win, I'm not fond of that either. It's hard to work around, though, which I feel is the real problem.
It lacks balance changes. Once blizzard sees the meta is stable and becoming stale, probably once a month or so, there should be a sweeping round of nerfs and buffs. We don't need endless new cards - the game gets too expensive and people will quit if they can't keep up, relative to their prior progression. Three full expansions a year is enough.
Netdecking is problem for the game and it isn't going away - this would be the best way to tackle it.
I mentioned earlier that a game getting too expensive is a bad thing. Kibler illuminated on this thought perfectly, if you check out the channel Omnislash. There's a lot to consider, but one thing is certain, discussion is important, which is why I'm happy to speak with all of you. On a side note, I'm one of the most adamant when it comes to bitching about netdecking, so trust me, I get you, hard.
One thing only- the balls/desire from the dev team to commit to regular balance changes, both buffs and nerfs, across all sets. Instead they're going to start hitting us reprints, lots of card rotation and more hot-fix cards like Golakka Crawler. Not cool.
Hearthstone isn't actually lacking anything as of right now, the game does what it's made to do very well - The big problem is just people looking at HS as a competitive game which it obviously isn't made to be.. :P
Too much RNG is definitely main reason some people cant get themselves to play more.
2nd reason, in my opinion, would be non-fair, noninteractive, frustrating cards. Those would be ice block, caverns below, jade idol, warriors quest, vicious fledgling, upgrade, fiery war axe and prolly many more.
Its not onyl that people are trying to look at it competitively... Some people just dont enjoy all this random mechanic, and as you can see ,there is more than enough people like that, for blizzard to finally do sth with it.
Monthly balance adjustements before every new season would help. I could live with one month of Jade Idol and Quest Rogue if I new it fixed next month.
Its not onyl that people are trying to look at it competitively... Some people just dont enjoy all this random mechanic, and as you can see ,there is more than enough people like that, for blizzard to finally do sth with it.
I don't enjoy super random games either (as I like to play more competitive games) - But that's just the direction that the devs has gone with the game so when I want to play competitive games I simply play something else and when I want to have fun with flipping coins I play Hearthstone. (which is a fun change from playing the more competitive games)
So I've been making a set of cards, and I've been trying to get around to covering areas that are usually covered with sets, Kezan Mystic being replaced by Eater of Secrets (debatable) being a relative example of filling roles due to rotation and the like. I've been curious for some time what is most lacking in the current meta, what we need more of, or if we need less of something. I think it's an important question that a lot of people should think on at times. Even with that single question, you could find the "Kryptonite Formula" of most Standard players.
What do you guys think?
(I brought this thread here (General Deck Building forum) because the thread is more a focus on cards and cards within a set. The people that post here are likely those that focus most on strategy, and have the most vocal of thoughts/complaints in the entirety of the site. For that reason, the best answers can be found in this forum. If moving this thread is necessary, I will understand.)
Come visit my Card Emporium. Strange things, you will find inside...
Come take the test, if you're daring. Feel free to show me your results in a message.
To note: The phrasing of the poll and thread are not meant to treat the game or developers poorly/negatively. This is merely an inquiry.
Come visit my Card Emporium. Strange things, you will find inside...
Come take the test, if you're daring. Feel free to show me your results in a message.
A while ago while waiting a bus I decided that I'd have time to play a game before the bus arrived. Well, I was wrong. The game ended up lasting almost half an hour. And the game in no point felt boring, it was so full of meaningful board interaction. The only way to go significantly over half an hour is with fatigue decks and I find that a bit problematic, sometimes I really feel like playing a game that'd last hours and yet feel meaningful.
So what Hearthstone is lacking is mechanics to enable this kind of game play.
Game definitely needs more diversity. The stuff i see on the weekly design competitions and hearthcards blow my mind, and yet everything new is given to us by a spoonful and doesn't feel that innovative. The last thing we got was adapt, which is simply choosing buffs already made long ago. Before that, multi class cards, but only couple of them. Discover was cool, change hero power was cool, but nothing radical is really happening in terms of making the game more awesome.
i'm torn between RNGesus and card collection.
i mean, i finally pulled a golden legendary [and i don't have that many legendaries period]....and i got Cho. not optimal.
if all legendaries were more balanced with each other i think it would help. i have no problem with legendary>epic>rare>common, even though that does have it's own problems with accessibility, but some common are awesome and some epics/legendaries are total crap. building a collection enough to build viable decks is hard enough, if you like to have one deck per class [like me]. building an actual complete set....that's for people with money and time...
we've all had games where RNGesus kicked us in the Jimmy. your opponent gets great RNG and you get handfuls of dog poop. but that's statistics and true randomness for you, but it does still annoy when it swings 100% against you.
on a side note, a suggested improvement would be that the RNGesus for opening packs made it much more likely you'd get common you DON'T have whenever there is a common. i find it frustrating to STILL not have some Classic commons. but at least they don't cost much dust...
Players who instead of finding a game that suits their tastes, try to change a game to suit their tastes. Also, it has players who feel like they both need to win, and play the style of deck they enjoy most, which means anyone who doesn't play their style should be losing.
Hearthstone is hearthstone. It is a computer CCG that is light hearted and involves a fair bit of randomness to create unexpected situations and outcomes. It is fairly fast, mostly amusing, and simple at its heart.
Check out my gaming blog: Downy Owlbear Designs and download free P&P games.
Or argue with me about games on Qallout, the video debate site.
The game is awesome when new cards are release, after few weeks is normal to netdecks broken the variety, Un'Goro was the best expansion so far in this aspect, so what this game need? Release new content more often, a full new expansion every month or in 2 months.
I feel like they went too far with discover. By GvG everyone was complaining there was too much RNG, so they tuned it down a bit in BRM and TGT. But once they released discover in LoE and everyone was "yeah! That's how you do RNG" they just assumed it was ok to keep pushing it more and more, and since some skill comes into play, it's ok. Except that now discover like mechanics are everywhere and it just adds up to an insane amount of RNG.
So, if the game is missing something? Yeah, probably consistence. Cards that don't casually win games because you happened to discover that one thing. I'd much rather lose to a card that its strong by itself but I know exactly what it does and how to play around it than losing to a bag of tricks that might just give my opponent what he/she needs.
My 2 cents
It lacks balance changes. Once blizzard sees the meta is stable and becoming stale, probably once a month or so, there should be a sweeping round of nerfs and buffs. We don't need endless new cards - the game gets too expensive and people will quit if they can't keep up, relative to their prior progression. Three full expansions a year is enough.
Netdecking is problem for the game and it isn't going away - this would be the best way to tackle it.
Netdeck or rank 20 is the biggest problem. You can't build you own unique deck with some crazy cards and get high rank. Deckbuilding in this game is just varieties of same decks. Quest rogue/mid pally/miracle priest/aggro druid whatever. People don't build own decks. It's easy to take someone's deck and play it. It's boring. Same decks 4 mouth.
One day this game will stop existing. I can't wait.
Blizzard needs to hire the people who create the cards in the weekly contest here. They make much better card designs than most things Blizzard puts out.
You do not truly know someone, until you fight them.....
Yeah, I don't like the limitation put in place by the game myself, to be honest. Ever going 20-30 draws into fatigue? The game automatically forces a draw. That's really not very fun, in my opinion, because there's so much room we could explore, but we're cut short. Honestly, making a game infinite in possible length. I like the idea of making a game as lengthy as both players can manage. Having a game full of interesting interactions is just the best.
When I see a custom card anywhere, if it feels like it's an idea that's plain, bland, nothing new in terms of function, a frown usually overtakes my face. Honestly, it can be hard to really innovate when a number of ideas have already been thought of. While developing my set, I've been trying my best to keep from doing anything that's been done before. I don't think it's okay to just ditch the idea of publishing the usual batch, like "Give a minion +1/+1" as stat changes have been part of many card games, though, it'd be nice that accompanying, miscellaneous cards like Mayor Noggenfogger have seen release. It's good to keep a game fresh, but not at the cost of removing traditional card effects like the occasional buff.
In regards to Discover casually granting a win, I'm not fond of that either. It's hard to work around, though, which I feel is the real problem.
Come visit my Card Emporium. Strange things, you will find inside...
Come take the test, if you're daring. Feel free to show me your results in a message.
One thing only- the balls/desire from the dev team to commit to regular balance changes, both buffs and nerfs, across all sets. Instead they're going to start hitting us reprints, lots of card rotation and more hot-fix cards like Golakka Crawler. Not cool.
the only thing what HS is lacking atm is a tournament mode.
Hearthstone isn't actually lacking anything as of right now, the game does what it's made to do very well - The big problem is just people looking at HS as a competitive game which it obviously isn't made to be.. :P
Too much RNG is definitely main reason some people cant get themselves to play more.
2nd reason, in my opinion, would be non-fair, noninteractive, frustrating cards. Those would be ice block, caverns below, jade idol, warriors quest, vicious fledgling, upgrade, fiery war axe and prolly many more.
Its not onyl that people are trying to look at it competitively... Some people just dont enjoy all this random mechanic, and as you can see ,there is more than enough people like that, for blizzard to finally do sth with it.
Monthly balance adjustements before every new season would help. I could live with one month of Jade Idol and Quest Rogue if I new it fixed next month.
The TCG aspect would be great addition to the game.
Bitch i'm Willy Wonka!