You don't ignore the overload, it's just not the same as a 3 mana 3/4. It's a tempo play that also synergizes with certain overload cards like lava shock and unbound. Yes there are some classes that don't struggle against it, but it trades easily with Mechwarper, Knife Juggler (on turn 2 anyway), Mana Wyrm, Zombie Chow, Annoy-o-Tron, Voidwalker, Haunted Creeper, etc. It's not Shielded Minibot level good, but it's a card shaman desperately needed to compete in the early game so it can curve into it's strong mid and late game cards.
It's not really 2 drop. Take it this way - it has body of the 3-drop. Turn 2 you drop this and opp responds with 2-drop. But turn 3 you can play only 2-drop, which is going to be conquested with 3-drop. Ultimately after both turns 3 have passed, both players have the same board (assuming no trading) - a 2-drop and a 3-drop.
It is a 2 drop, you can literally drop it on turn 2 and it is a very good tempo play. In the example you give why do you assume no trading? Trading to gain board control would be the whole point of playing it turn 2.
This is the way your example would actually play out: You play Totem Golem > Opponent plays 2 drop > You kill 2 drop with Totem Golem which survives and also play 2 drop > Opponent plays 3 drop > You kill 3 drop with Totem Golem and you play a 4 drop > Opponent plays 4 drop etc... In this example you are a 2 drop ahead on the board and just got 2 for 1 value from a card.
except you dont kill 3drops after taking out 2drop with this half the time, stuff like spider tank, harvest golem, flamewaker, gang boss, frothing? the leftover is gonna kill your 2drop anyway, its a momentary tempo play, but rarely value play
Its really nice early game tool for shaman and has a potential depending how the totem support cards work out, might make totemic might playable, but as naked can be still easily removed, especially painful is gonna be mage with apprentice flamecannon, since you instantly lose tempo AND keep the overload... Id probably like it more as 2/5, doesnt kill 2/3s, but atleast is out of ping range after taking out 3/2s, doesnt die to 4dmg spells and obviously with more HP works better with HST if you get one
When the 3/4 stat distribution came out it really set the standard at the 3-drop. Pre-Naxx, the auto-include was Harvest Golem. A few classes had other options at 3 like Injured Blademaster in priest. When Naxx came out, Dark Cultist was such a good card that it was viewed by many as an intentional buff to the struggling priest class. It was perhaps the best 3-drop available for any class at the time of release.
Spider Tank's release in GvG was a big change to the game because it gave that stat distribution to every class. An interesting thing about Spider Tank is that its stat distribution is so good that it is the only card with no card text that is commonly used in constructed. Not even Chillwind Yeti, the original standard for quality stats, makes the cut in any popular decks because it has no synergy with anything.
That is why I am so excited for this new shaman card. I feel some will look at the overload drawback and determine this card is not more valuable than the already-popular 3-drops with 3/4. This would mean that we underestimate the value of having this presence on the board on turn 2 rather than turn 3. My logic for overload being good has always been that you pay mana later to get more value now. The problem was that the cards didn't support that theory very well, especially the minions. Is Feral Spirit really better than a 3-drop minion? It could potentially be 1-for-1'd by a below-average stat card like Earthen Ring Farseer! Dust Devil vs other 1-drops? Dunemaul Shaman vs 4-drops? These cards aren't even better than regular cards at their mana cost that DON'T overload. Finally, Fireguard Destroyer came out in BRM and it IS better than other 4-drops. This new card is better too, and at an earlier stage of the game. The idea that it could give synergy later with totems and gain more value may push this into the upper echelon.
In the end, your turn 2 overload might not even be a drawback. I don't always have a 3 to follow my 2. Sometimes all I have is a 2 to follow my 2. If that's the case, I float 1 mana. In this scenario, I got a 3/4 for 2 and I didn't even realize the drawback. Could be great.
It's not really 2 drop. Take it this way - it has body of the 3-drop. Turn 2 you drop this and opp responds with 2-drop. But turn 3 you can play only 2-drop, which is going to be conquested with 3-drop. Ultimately after both turns 3 have passed, both players have the same board (assuming no trading) - a 2-drop and a 3-drop.
It is a 2 drop, you can literally drop it on turn 2 and it is a very good tempo play. In the example you give why do you assume no trading? Trading to gain board control would be the whole point of playing it turn 2.
This is the way your example would actually play out: You play Totem Golem > Opponent plays 2 drop > You kill 2 drop with Totem Golem which survives and also play 2 drop > Opponent plays 3 drop > You kill 3 drop with Totem Golem and you play a 4 drop > Opponent plays 4 drop etc... In this example you are a 2 drop ahead on the board and just got 2 for 1 value from a card.
except you dont kill 3drops after taking out 2drop with this half the time, stuff like spider tank, harvest golem, flamewaker, gang boss, frothing? the leftover is gonna kill your 2drop anyway, its a momentary tempo play, but rarely value play
Its really nice early game tool for shaman and has a potential depending how the totem support cards work out, might make totemic might playable, but as naked can be still easily removed, especially painful is gonna be mage with apprentice flamecannon, since you instantly lose tempo AND keep the overload... Id probably like it more as 2/5, doesnt kill 2/3s, but atleast is out of ping range after taking out 3/2s, doesnt die to 4dmg spells and obviously with more HP works better with HST if you get one
Having only 2 damage would be the same problem as Lava Shock. Lava Shock got criticized because of the low damage. Lot of 2 drops have more than 2 hp (maybe not the best ones, but still), that's why LS is not a top tier card. So 3/4 is just perfect, yeah flame cannon is a pain in the ass, but the fact that only few cards can deal with Totem Golem in the early game, it's already an high benefit.
but those 2/3 2drops can be dealth with multiple ways, what we really need are value and/or sticky early minions not tempo ones (we have mech shaman for that), as 3/4, its just not efficient enough to 2 for 1 consistently Im afraid, there are enough early spells that can deal with it efficiently and multiple classes have that 1 damage available after golem trades with 3/2s. as 2/5 it can be buffed with FT immediately without the fear of 1 damage classes and is easier to benefit from healing stream, since that is usually the most useless one until you get some board going and that would be far easier with 5hp minion.
I dont know, the 3/4 might eventually be better if totemic might becomes playable (I doubt it, altho I went 12win in arena with double totemic might to support my 2 MTTs and 3 FTTs...) but I just dont see it as our early saving grace, at 3/4, it also remains vulnerable to 2/1 1drops into abusives
This is the same logic that was used to claim Grim Patron would be useless even in a Warrior deck.
That was true when Grim Patron was released. And yes, he was useless then. That he isn't is a change that happened LONG AFTER GRIM PATRON WAS RELEASED.
Warsong Commander didn't gave charge to summoned minions, only to played minions. So even if you had grim patron, only 1 of them could attack, the other one don't. There he was naturally called useless. Blizzard changed Warsong commander when the patch was released and she now give charge to summoned minions too.
So no, the logic isn't flawed, simply because this single change made such a big difference between useless and insane.
Maybe there will be more for totems too see, but for now my opinion is the same:
Totem Golem is a good card, but insane, OP or whatever is too much credit for it. It is a vanilla 3 mana 3/4 that you can play on turn 2. But i personally count 1 overload as 1 1/2 mana. And later in the game he makes more trouble than he is worth it. Like said before: Turn 5 do you want to play a Totem Golem? Or at turn 6 when you have Dr. Boom in your hand? There i rather play a 2 drop without overload or a 3 drop without overload.
It is not bad, no by far, it gives you a lot of tempo in the early game and it is not a bad card, but overload can be often so extremely bad later in the game. Not at 10 mana, but between 3-7 mana it can be a big game breaker.
That was true when Grim Patron was released. And yes, he was useless then. That he isn't is a change that happened LONG AFTER GRIM PATRON WAS RELEASED.
Warsong Commander didn't gave charge to summoned minions, only to played minions. So even if you had grim patron, only 1 of them could attack, the other one don't. There he was naturally called useless. Blizzard changed Warsong commander when the patch was released and she now give charge to summoned minions too.
2 Days before the BRM was even first released = LONG AFTER??
I thought the other guy saying this card sucks because you can ping it on turn 3 was bad but you've taken the cake.
That was true when Grim Patron was released. And yes, he was useless then. That he isn't is a change that happened LONG AFTER GRIM PATRON WAS RELEASED.
Warsong Commander didn't gave charge to summoned minions, only to played minions. So even if you had grim patron, only 1 of them could attack, the other one don't. There he was naturally called useless. Blizzard changed Warsong commander when the patch was released and she now give charge to summoned minions too.
2 Days before the BRM was even first released = LONG AFTER??
I thought the other guy saying this card sucks because you can ping it on turn 3 was bad but you've taken the cake.
Um yes "Long After". In patch 1.0.0.4458 (January 1st of 2014) Warsong Commander was reworked to give minions charge who were Summoned instead of Played. In patch 2.4.0.8311 (March 31st of 2015) it was "bug-fixed" as they put it, to give charge to minions summoned by other minions.
Um yes "Long After". In patch 1.0.0.4458 (January 1st of 2014) Warsong Commander was reworked to give minions charge who were Summoned instead of Played. In patch 2.4.0.8311 (March 31st of 2015) it was "bug-fixed" as they put it, to give charge to minions summoned by other minions.
Grim Patron is a BRM card which was released APRIL 2015, so how exactly was Warsong fixed "LONG AFTER" Grim Patron was playable?
Also summoned is when any minion appears on the board, tokens and spells etc, PLAYED is specifically from your hand. So yes Warsong was bug fixed to work how it was intended and the card text implies. Not to mention Patron is still good when played without Charge and Frothing Berserker would still get Charge and OTK level damage without the bug fix.
"It's not really 2 drop. Take it this way - it has body of the 3-drop. Turn 2 you drop this and opp responds with 2-drop."
but then you can kill the 2 drop with totemic golem play your 2 drop which will be contested by 3-drop but u still have your 3/2 or 3/1 totemic golem which can kill there three drop sometimes and if not crackle or lightning bolt or any spell that is 3- mana
I feel like people are over-valuing this card's effect on the Shaman's role in Constructed.
The reason this card has potential is its a 3/4 TOTEM that can be played on turn 2. In a totem deck playing this to control the board followed by a Hero power is stronger than Hero power turn 2 followed by a 3/4 turn 3.
Gives some potential openings like Golem, Golem, Totemic (potentially another golem) or Golem, Hero power, Totemcarver or Golem, Astral Spirit, Totemcarver etc
This card is what could let Shamans even out the lost tempo you'd normally have from hero powering or playing other 0 attack totems.
I was thinking something more comparable to Zoo or current Midrange Shaman decks, Face damage not really being the point. The fatal damage coming from Fire Elemental and possibly Thunderbluff Valiant, the card implies the effect is permanent so it could be pretty dangerous if it goes unchecked for even a few turns. You could fit Al'Akir probably for some burst, especially since Flametongue will be in there.
Shaman has better removal spells and the tools to be efficient with weaker minions, mix in some actual efficient minions and I think it could be consistent. Many of the revealed neutral cards have some potential to fit in the deck, especially the Garrison Commander.
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You don't ignore the overload, it's just not the same as a 3 mana 3/4. It's a tempo play that also synergizes with certain overload cards like lava shock and unbound. Yes there are some classes that don't struggle against it, but it trades easily with Mechwarper, Knife Juggler (on turn 2 anyway), Mana Wyrm, Zombie Chow, Annoy-o-Tron, Voidwalker, Haunted Creeper, etc. It's not Shielded Minibot level good, but it's a card shaman desperately needed to compete in the early game so it can curve into it's strong mid and late game cards.
except you dont kill 3drops after taking out 2drop with this half the time, stuff like spider tank, harvest golem, flamewaker, gang boss, frothing? the leftover is gonna kill your 2drop anyway, its a momentary tempo play, but rarely value play
Its really nice early game tool for shaman and has a potential depending how the totem support cards work out, might make totemic might playable, but as naked can be still easily removed, especially painful is gonna be mage with apprentice flamecannon, since you instantly lose tempo AND keep the overload... Id probably like it more as 2/5, doesnt kill 2/3s, but atleast is out of ping range after taking out 3/2s, doesnt die to 4dmg spells and obviously with more HP works better with HST if you get one
When the 3/4 stat distribution came out it really set the standard at the 3-drop. Pre-Naxx, the auto-include was Harvest Golem. A few classes had other options at 3 like Injured Blademaster in priest. When Naxx came out, Dark Cultist was such a good card that it was viewed by many as an intentional buff to the struggling priest class. It was perhaps the best 3-drop available for any class at the time of release.
Spider Tank's release in GvG was a big change to the game because it gave that stat distribution to every class. An interesting thing about Spider Tank is that its stat distribution is so good that it is the only card with no card text that is commonly used in constructed. Not even Chillwind Yeti, the original standard for quality stats, makes the cut in any popular decks because it has no synergy with anything.
That is why I am so excited for this new shaman card. I feel some will look at the overload drawback and determine this card is not more valuable than the already-popular 3-drops with 3/4. This would mean that we underestimate the value of having this presence on the board on turn 2 rather than turn 3. My logic for overload being good has always been that you pay mana later to get more value now. The problem was that the cards didn't support that theory very well, especially the minions. Is Feral Spirit really better than a 3-drop minion? It could potentially be 1-for-1'd by a below-average stat card like Earthen Ring Farseer! Dust Devil vs other 1-drops? Dunemaul Shaman vs 4-drops? These cards aren't even better than regular cards at their mana cost that DON'T overload. Finally, Fireguard Destroyer came out in BRM and it IS better than other 4-drops. This new card is better too, and at an earlier stage of the game. The idea that it could give synergy later with totems and gain more value may push this into the upper echelon.
In the end, your turn 2 overload might not even be a drawback. I don't always have a 3 to follow my 2. Sometimes all I have is a 2 to follow my 2. If that's the case, I float 1 mana. In this scenario, I got a 3/4 for 2 and I didn't even realize the drawback. Could be great.
but those 2/3 2drops can be dealth with multiple ways, what we really need are value and/or sticky early minions not tempo ones (we have mech shaman for that), as 3/4, its just not efficient enough to 2 for 1 consistently Im afraid, there are enough early spells that can deal with it efficiently and multiple classes have that 1 damage available after golem trades with 3/2s. as 2/5 it can be buffed with FT immediately without the fear of 1 damage classes and is easier to benefit from healing stream, since that is usually the most useless one until you get some board going and that would be far easier with 5hp minion.
I dont know, the 3/4 might eventually be better if totemic might becomes playable (I doubt it, altho I went 12win in arena with double totemic might to support my 2 MTTs and 3 FTTs...) but I just dont see it as our early saving grace, at 3/4, it also remains vulnerable to 2/1 1drops into abusives
That was true when Grim Patron was released. And yes, he was useless then. That he isn't is a change that happened LONG AFTER GRIM PATRON WAS RELEASED.
Warsong Commander didn't gave charge to summoned minions, only to played minions. So even if you had grim patron, only 1 of them could attack, the other one don't. There he was naturally called useless. Blizzard changed Warsong commander when the patch was released and she now give charge to summoned minions too.
So no, the logic isn't flawed, simply because this single change made such a big difference between useless and insane.
Maybe there will be more for totems too see, but for now my opinion is the same:
Totem Golem is a good card, but insane, OP or whatever is too much credit for it. It is a vanilla 3 mana 3/4 that you can play on turn 2. But i personally count 1 overload as 1 1/2 mana. And later in the game he makes more trouble than he is worth it. Like said before: Turn 5 do you want to play a Totem Golem? Or at turn 6 when you have Dr. Boom in your hand? There i rather play a 2 drop without overload or a 3 drop without overload.
It is not bad, no by far, it gives you a lot of tempo in the early game and it is not a bad card, but overload can be often so extremely bad later in the game. Not at 10 mana, but between 3-7 mana it can be a big game breaker.
2 Days before the BRM was even first released = LONG AFTER??
I thought the other guy saying this card sucks because you can ping it on turn 3 was bad but you've taken the cake.
Um yes "Long After". In patch 1.0.0.4458 (January 1st of 2014) Warsong Commander was reworked to give minions charge who were Summoned instead of Played. In patch 2.4.0.8311 (March 31st of 2015) it was "bug-fixed" as they put it, to give charge to minions summoned by other minions.
Mrghl Mrghl!
Grim Patron is a BRM card which was released APRIL 2015, so how exactly was Warsong fixed "LONG AFTER" Grim Patron was playable?
Also summoned is when any minion appears on the board, tokens and spells etc, PLAYED is specifically from your hand. So yes Warsong was bug fixed to work how it was intended and the card text implies. Not to mention Patron is still good when played without Charge and Frothing Berserker would still get Charge and OTK level damage without the bug fix.
So yeah, what is your point supposed to be?
"It's not really 2 drop. Take it this way - it has body of the 3-drop. Turn 2 you drop this and opp responds with 2-drop."
but then you can kill the 2 drop with totemic golem play your 2 drop which will be contested by 3-drop but u still have your 3/2 or 3/1 totemic golem which can kill there three drop sometimes and if not crackle or lightning bolt or any spell that is 3- mana
The reason this card has potential is its a 3/4 TOTEM that can be played on turn 2. In a totem deck playing this to control the board followed by a Hero power is stronger than Hero power turn 2 followed by a 3/4 turn 3.
Gives some potential openings like Golem, Golem, Totemic (potentially another golem) or Golem, Hero power, Totemcarver or Golem, Astral Spirit, Totemcarver etc
This card is what could let Shamans even out the lost tempo you'd normally have from hero powering or playing other 0 attack totems.
I was thinking something more comparable to Zoo or current Midrange Shaman decks, Face damage not really being the point. The fatal damage coming from Fire Elemental and possibly Thunderbluff Valiant, the card implies the effect is permanent so it could be pretty dangerous if it goes unchecked for even a few turns. You could fit Al'Akir probably for some burst, especially since Flametongue will be in there.
Shaman has better removal spells and the tools to be efficient with weaker minions, mix in some actual efficient minions and I think it could be consistent. Many of the revealed neutral cards have some potential to fit in the deck, especially the Garrison Commander.