I'll preface this post by saying I play mage almost exclusively. I have no idea how this thing made it out of testing with 4 health; it's like a knife juggler on steroids.
Anyone else ready for this thing to get nerfed into the ground?
I'll preface this post by saying I play mage almost exclusively. I have no idea how this thing made it out of testing with 4 health; it's like a knife juggler on steroids.
Anyone else ready for this thing to get nerfed into the ground?
I don't think it needs to be nerfed. Just because a new card becomes a central card in a new competitive archetype, it doesn't mean that we need to nerf it. Otherwise we'd also have to nerf Grim Patron too
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Check out the deck (Mayweather Warrior) that I used to reach top 100 NA this season below. Would appreciate your comments, questions and criticism!
It costs 1 mana more than Knife Juggler and even though it gets more pings per activation, once you have cast a spell thats it whereas the minion that triggered Knife Juggler is still around after the juggle. Flamewaker's activation is harder to achieve and not as good for board state, so the effect should be better than Knife Juggler.
The Hearthstone community and its 'nerflust' continues to baffle me: Nerf Flamwaker?! Why would you do such a thing... the deck the card is spawning is arguably not even tier 1!!!
Does this really make sense in the heads of all the authors of "nerf threads" or do you just like the attention? Do you really think just because you lost some games against that thing - probably at rank 10 or so - it is totally "op"...
Is it so difficult to accept other reasons for your losses? Among the things that come to mind: You play the wrong deck, you are bad at Hearthstone, you have had some bad rng over the course of a limited number of games ... But I suppose it is easier to just go to a forum and whine a bit - usually there will be some people who will join you in your madness, or at the very least you got some attention by idiots like me that can not keep themselves from answering to these ridiculous threads!!!
Flamewaker is great but not OP. I've replaced Loot Hoarders in my deck with Acolytes due to the amount of Mages with Flamewakers on ladder, and almost always gets two cards off it.
It's a good card, but I should be nerfed. IMO, it's no better than comparable class 3drops like Imp Gang Boss, Cultist, and Aldo. In order for Waker to get out of control, you would have to do a ton of spells which would pretty much leave you with an empty hand, that's probably not going to pan out very well.
There's not much to add to what everyone else has already said, but even if this isn't a QQ thread I'd like to hear why you think it deserves a nerf OP.
As far as I can see from playing against this card, it only fits into one type of deck and you really need to have it in your opening hand and you really need to have it survive for more than a turn. As a warrior player it's been no bother for me.
It really seems situational to me at best and really doesn't require a nerf.
Wow, so much hate. Not a single argument, only "oh, you had bad luck", "quit QQ'ing", "it's good, not op". It's not like the guy made a strong point, but at any rate have any of you either.
I agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable to nerf it, and I'll actually present the reason I think that.
1. Mage already has very strong and versatile class spells, many of them pretty cheap, perfect for comboing with a card like flamewaker. You're just potentializing what already is good by itself.
2. Yes, it is a knife juggler on steroids. How many juggles you will get from a juggler on average? 2? And I'm being generous, because this guy gets a target on his head as soon as it hits the board, besides, it's somewhat easy killing a 2 health minion. You will most likely not get a knife thrown the turn he comes out, not in the early game. Now when we look at flamewaker, turn 3 flamewaker > coin > random 1 mana spell and you're looking at 4 pings. With 4 pings, what is going to survive on your board? How are you supposed to kill him next turn? Death's bite, fireball, truesilver champion, lucky implosion... non-terrible crackle, lava burst... and lets say that for some unlikely reason you don't have any of this cards in your hand by turn 4. You lost. Unless the mage has crappy hand and draws, you lost. Because you're already against the wall trying to kill that flamewaker and the mage is trowing obstacles in the form of counterspell/mirror entity, mirror images and killing every single minion you are able to play in the process. I know how to play around the secrets, I just can't play around them and put myself in a winning position on turn 4, no way there is enough mana. And it will only snowball out of control. By the time you're about to stabilize, you're in burn range. So yeah, that 4 health pushes this guy over the top, it's just too hard killing it, and if you don't, pings are going to rape every minion you play.
3. Mage already has viable decks. Really, mech mage is already unfair when they get the nuts opener. It's a very cheap deck and can just wreck about everything there is provided it has a good opener. But is there a way to stop this deck? Even getting rid of goblin blastmage, it's still going to be solid. You'd have to mess around those neutral mechs, and that's not cool. There is freeze mage, a high-end deck, not very popular nowadays, but still strong. There is echo mage, also pretty cool. So why another viable potentially unfair deck? Shaman has hardly one playable deck. Paladin has pretty much one serious option. Why not focus on giving those classes the means to show up in ladder?
The way I see it, it's just a way too strong card for mages, it's not just good, it's oppressive. Either you kill it right away, or you're in bad shape. And it's ok for there to be cards like this, I just can't accept that they're hitting the board by turn 3, when my mana can barely allow me to develop my board.
Would a nerf kill tempo mage? Yes. Is that a bad thing? I don't see the problem.
Wow, so much hate. Not a single argument, only "oh, you had bad luck", "quit QQ'ing", "it's good, not op". It's not like the guy made a strong point, but at any rate have any of you either.
I agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable to nerf it, and I'll actually present the reason I think that.
1. Mage already has very strong and versatile class spells, many of them pretty cheap, perfect for comboing with a card like flamewaker. You're just potentializing what already is good by itself.
2. Yes, it is a knife juggler on steroids. How many juggles you will get from a juggler on average? 2? And I'm being generous, because this guy gets a target on his head as soon as it hits the board, besides, it's somewhat easy killing a 2 health minion. You will most likely not get a knife thrown the turn he comes out, not in the early game. Now when we look at flamewaker, turn 3 flamewaker > coin > random 1 mana spell and you're looking at 4 pings. With 4 pings, what is going to survive on your board? How are you supposed to kill him next turn? Death's bite, fireball, truesilver champion, lucky implosion... non-terrible crackle, lava burst... and lets say that for some unlikely reason you don't have any of this cards in your hand by turn 4. You lost. Unless the mage has crappy hand and draws, you lost. Because you're already against the wall trying to kill that flamewaker and the mage is trowing obstacles in the form of counterspell/mirror entity, mirror images and killing every single minion you are able to play in the process. I know how to play around the secrets, I just can't play around them and put myself in a winning position on turn 4, no way there is enough mana. And it will only snowball out of control. By the time you're about to stabilize, you're in burn range. So yeah, that 4 health pushes this guy over the top, it's just too hard killing it, and if you don't, pings are going to rape every minion you play.
3. Mage already has viable decks. Really, mech mage is already unfair when they get the nuts opener. It's a very cheap deck and can just wreck about everything there is provided it has a good opener. But is there a way to stop this deck? Even getting rid of goblin blastmage, it's still going to be solid. You'd have to mess around those neutral mechs, and that's not cool. There is freeze mage, a high-end deck, not very popular nowadays, but still strong. There is echo mage, also pretty cool. So why another viable potentially unfair deck? Shaman has hardly one playable deck. Paladin has pretty much one serious option. Why not focus on giving those classes the means to show up in ladder?
The way I see it, it's just a way too strong card for mages, it's not just good, it's oppressive. Either you kill it right away, or you're in bad shape. And it's ok for there to be cards like this, I just can't accept that they're hitting the board by turn 3, when my mana can barely allow me to develop my board.
Would a nerf kill tempo mage? Yes. Is that a bad thing? I don't see the problem.
Argument 3 and 1 to an extent are really better arguments for how other classes need better cards, not how Flamewaker needs to be nerfed. And argument 2 applies much more against aggro decks than control decks (and also if they have both Flamewaker and Mirror Entity out by turn 4 they haven't played a single spell yet with Flamewaker, and haven't used the coin with it). Mages also don't have infinite cards and while Flamewaker turns near kills to kills it's somewhat unlikely it'll completely kill off healthier minions.
It can be extremely frustrating when it consistently hits the one target you don't want it to (e.g., I have three minions and one had four health and taunt--opponent played two spells and all four "random" blasts hit the four health minion, which also happened to be the only one keeping me alive at the moment), that's for sure. But nothing that needs to be nerfed.
Just another thread full of retards bashing OP for thinking a card is too strong. Throwing in the typical "just cuz you lost doesn't mean overpowered" when OP clearly stated that he plays mage almost exclusively.
The truth is flamewalker is a strong card but it doesn't make mage overpowered and that's more important.
For 3 mana the flamewaker has a strong ability ok, but as a 2/4 minnion he is basically vulnerable to nearly everything, every 4 mana clearcard. Many two mana clears (sometimes combined with heroability) . And you are forced to play many activators for the flamewaker. I think the much bigger problem and stronger card for tempo mage is the mad scientist.
Judging by the previous nerfs Blizz has done, Flamewaker will not be getting hit anytime soon. The only things they've nerfed are cards that either facilitate decks that utterly dominate opponents without much of a chance to fight back (Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Leeroy Jenkins, Unleash the Hounds), or that are run in literally every single deck (Tinkmaster Overspark, other random stuff in beta). Flamewaker doesn't fit in the 2nd category (it's not run in all Mage decks), or the 1st (Tempo Mage is strong, but not so insanely strong that nothing can compete against it, nor can it nuke you for 20 damage from hand). Therefore, judging by Blizz's policy towards nerfing, Waker is totally safe, unless the next set breaks it really hard.
It falls below the vanilla test, unlike Knife Juggler, and spells are much harder to play consistently in a situation that would be preferable, as opposed to minions which you can generally slap down anytime you want. Besides, it's a class card, so it should be stronger. The 2 damage instead of 1 makes up for that, but it's nowhere near OP--I actually find it a little weak for clearing board and better for face damage, but that's probably my RNG.
That is a good point, it really doesn't compare to those cards you mentioned. I think it'd be closer to Undertaker, but since it actually got played in a great array of decks and was pretty damn strong in zoolock, kind of not quite the same. Still, in terms of oppressive starts, they're close, I think.
I still think it's sort of annoying for mage to have so many viable solid decks while other classes linger. Probably because of my magic background and blue-hate, it being basically what mage is in hearthstone (versatile and clearly stronger in terms of raw power and reach).
But meh, don't really care that much, just wouldn't complain if it got nerfed.
You saw a lot of Flamewaker because it's an adventure card and not from packs. People use it because it's cheap enough when they don't have very large collection. Flamewaker is nothing overpowered if you killed it on sight.
I'll preface this post by saying I play mage almost exclusively. I have no idea how this thing made it out of testing with 4 health; it's like a knife juggler on steroids.
Anyone else ready for this thing to get nerfed into the ground?
I don't think it needs to be nerfed. Just because a new card becomes a central card in a new competitive archetype, it doesn't mean that we need to nerf it. Otherwise we'd also have to nerf Grim Patron too
Check out the deck (Mayweather Warrior) that I used to reach top 100 NA this season below. Would appreciate your comments, questions and criticism!
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/247804-mayweather-warrior-top-100-legend-s14
It costs 1 mana more than Knife Juggler and even though it gets more pings per activation, once you have cast a spell thats it whereas the minion that triggered Knife Juggler is still around after the juggle. Flamewaker's activation is harder to achieve and not as good for board state, so the effect should be better than Knife Juggler.
Kezan Tinkerer - http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/fan-creations/45270-weekly-design-competition-19-submission-thread?comment=333
Loose one match = CARD MUST BE NERFED.
The logic...
The Hearthstone community and its 'nerflust' continues to baffle me: Nerf Flamwaker?! Why would you do such a thing... the deck the card is spawning is arguably not even tier 1!!!
Does this really make sense in the heads of all the authors of "nerf threads" or do you just like the attention? Do you really think just because you lost some games against that thing - probably at rank 10 or so - it is totally "op"...
Is it so difficult to accept other reasons for your losses? Among the things that come to mind: You play the wrong deck, you are bad at Hearthstone, you have had some bad rng over the course of a limited number of games ... But I suppose it is easier to just go to a forum and whine a bit - usually there will be some people who will join you in your madness, or at the very least you got some attention by idiots like me that can not keep themselves from answering to these ridiculous threads!!!
Flamewaker is great but not OP. I've replaced Loot Hoarders in my deck with Acolytes due to the amount of Mages with Flamewakers on ladder, and almost always gets two cards off it.
It's a good card, but I should be nerfed. IMO, it's no better than comparable class 3drops like Imp Gang Boss, Cultist, and Aldo. In order for Waker to get out of control, you would have to do a ton of spells which would pretty much leave you with an empty hand, that's probably not going to pan out very well.
There's not much to add to what everyone else has already said, but even if this isn't a QQ thread I'd like to hear why you think it deserves a nerf OP.
As far as I can see from playing against this card, it only fits into one type of deck and you really need to have it in your opening hand and you really need to have it survive for more than a turn. As a warrior player it's been no bother for me.
It really seems situational to me at best and really doesn't require a nerf.
Unbowed. Unbent. Unbroken.
Wow, so much hate. Not a single argument, only "oh, you had bad luck", "quit QQ'ing", "it's good, not op". It's not like the guy made a strong point, but at any rate have any of you either.
I agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable to nerf it, and I'll actually present the reason I think that.
1. Mage already has very strong and versatile class spells, many of them pretty cheap, perfect for comboing with a card like flamewaker. You're just potentializing what already is good by itself.
2. Yes, it is a knife juggler on steroids. How many juggles you will get from a juggler on average? 2? And I'm being generous, because this guy gets a target on his head as soon as it hits the board, besides, it's somewhat easy killing a 2 health minion. You will most likely not get a knife thrown the turn he comes out, not in the early game. Now when we look at flamewaker, turn 3 flamewaker > coin > random 1 mana spell and you're looking at 4 pings. With 4 pings, what is going to survive on your board? How are you supposed to kill him next turn? Death's bite, fireball, truesilver champion, lucky implosion... non-terrible crackle, lava burst... and lets say that for some unlikely reason you don't have any of this cards in your hand by turn 4. You lost. Unless the mage has crappy hand and draws, you lost. Because you're already against the wall trying to kill that flamewaker and the mage is trowing obstacles in the form of counterspell/mirror entity, mirror images and killing every single minion you are able to play in the process. I know how to play around the secrets, I just can't play around them and put myself in a winning position on turn 4, no way there is enough mana. And it will only snowball out of control. By the time you're about to stabilize, you're in burn range. So yeah, that 4 health pushes this guy over the top, it's just too hard killing it, and if you don't, pings are going to rape every minion you play.
3. Mage already has viable decks. Really, mech mage is already unfair when they get the nuts opener. It's a very cheap deck and can just wreck about everything there is provided it has a good opener. But is there a way to stop this deck? Even getting rid of goblin blastmage, it's still going to be solid. You'd have to mess around those neutral mechs, and that's not cool.
There is freeze mage, a high-end deck, not very popular nowadays, but still strong.
There is echo mage, also pretty cool.
So why another viable potentially unfair deck? Shaman has hardly one playable deck. Paladin has pretty much one serious option. Why not focus on giving those classes the means to show up in ladder?
The way I see it, it's just a way too strong card for mages, it's not just good, it's oppressive. Either you kill it right away, or you're in bad shape. And it's ok for there to be cards like this, I just can't accept that they're hitting the board by turn 3, when my mana can barely allow me to develop my board.
Would a nerf kill tempo mage? Yes. Is that a bad thing? I don't see the problem.
Argument 3 and 1 to an extent are really better arguments for how other classes need better cards, not how Flamewaker needs to be nerfed. And argument 2 applies much more against aggro decks than control decks (and also if they have both Flamewaker and Mirror Entity out by turn 4 they haven't played a single spell yet with Flamewaker, and haven't used the coin with it). Mages also don't have infinite cards and while Flamewaker turns near kills to kills it's somewhat unlikely it'll completely kill off healthier minions.
It can be extremely frustrating when it consistently hits the one target you don't want it to (e.g., I have three minions and one had four health and taunt--opponent played two spells and all four "random" blasts hit the four health minion, which also happened to be the only one keeping me alive at the moment), that's for sure. But nothing that needs to be nerfed.
Just another thread full of retards bashing OP for thinking a card is too strong. Throwing in the typical "just cuz you lost doesn't mean overpowered" when OP clearly stated that he plays mage almost exclusively.
The truth is flamewalker is a strong card but it doesn't make mage overpowered and that's more important.
For 3 mana the flamewaker has a strong ability ok, but as a 2/4 minnion he is basically vulnerable to nearly everything, every 4 mana clearcard. Many two mana clears (sometimes combined with heroability) . And you are forced to play many activators for the flamewaker. I think the much bigger problem and stronger card for tempo mage is the mad scientist.
Judging by the previous nerfs Blizz has done, Flamewaker will not be getting hit anytime soon. The only things they've nerfed are cards that either facilitate decks that utterly dominate opponents without much of a chance to fight back (Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Leeroy Jenkins, Unleash the Hounds), or that are run in literally every single deck (Tinkmaster Overspark, other random stuff in beta). Flamewaker doesn't fit in the 2nd category (it's not run in all Mage decks), or the 1st (Tempo Mage is strong, but not so insanely strong that nothing can compete against it, nor can it nuke you for 20 damage from hand). Therefore, judging by Blizz's policy towards nerfing, Waker is totally safe, unless the next set breaks it really hard.
GLORIOUS PRIEST MASTER RACE
It falls below the vanilla test, unlike Knife Juggler, and spells are much harder to play consistently in a situation that would be preferable, as opposed to minions which you can generally slap down anytime you want. Besides, it's a class card, so it should be stronger. The 2 damage instead of 1 makes up for that, but it's nowhere near OP--I actually find it a little weak for clearing board and better for face damage, but that's probably my RNG.
That is a good point, it really doesn't compare to those cards you mentioned. I think it'd be closer to Undertaker, but since it actually got played in a great array of decks and was pretty damn strong in zoolock, kind of not quite the same. Still, in terms of oppressive starts, they're close, I think.
I still think it's sort of annoying for mage to have so many viable solid decks while other classes linger. Probably because of my magic background and blue-hate, it being basically what mage is in hearthstone (versatile and clearly stronger in terms of raw power and reach).
But meh, don't really care that much, just wouldn't complain if it got nerfed.
You saw a lot of Flamewaker because it's an adventure card and not from packs. People use it because it's cheap enough when they don't have very large collection. Flamewaker is nothing overpowered if you killed it on sight.
I think Flamewaker is OK but I also think that Coin should be a special card, not a spell.
I don't see any flamewakers I wouldn't replace with Dr. boom, over here, so....
So, who's ready for another pointless nerf thread ?