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Sorry, but Flame Imp is a great opener and has similar effects on zoo decks. Northshire Cleric, in its combo potential matching Mana Wyrm, can also scale great early card draw for Priest. Not to mention both those 1 mana 1/3s are played in NEARLY every deck since the beginning and only one was nerfed. Druid continues to have the best cards in both Standard and Wild arguably. Opening strength is a factor absolutely, but not an absolute and in addition something you said is just wrong.
"the game was decided on the first turn..."
Correlation does not imply causation. This is a principle that you need to be aware of when you start sharing statistics. To assume the winrate is 100% related to first turn played Mana Wyrm pre-nerf is to say that curve and strategy don't matter. That you should auto-concede when facing a "counter". This is to say that playing Mana Wyrm in the mid-game should be just as detrimental to the opponent as if it were played early. It boasting a negative win-rate post nerf could be the result of a number of things both involving and not involving Mana Wyrm directly. Plenty of players queue in without looking at the changes and then auto-concede when they realize a card got nerfed- automatic loss in the statistics. Other players foolishly play the same deck without changes without also realizing they now have no 1-drop minions to play in an aggro deck. People are now experimenting with different builds and that's swaying data as well. Directly following any change is a terrible time to take the win/loss data and try to generalize its previous power.
More so than any of the previously mentioned reasons, I think you really just didn't like playing this match-up. So when it got nerfed you had a a reason to celebrate and find an excuse to back it. My problem isn't that a card I like got a nerf. My problem is that the designers attacked a very specific card that was pretty average in the grand scheme of hearthstone's history. That a specific deck was thrown through a loop and now needs discovery time to recover, all while decks from 6 months ago get to stomp ladder unchanged. Does this mean big things are coming for mage in the future? Possibly. They seem to be considering wild a bit more, so I can only assume the true Tempo Mage is only getting stronger. Bottom line is standard meta in our current seasons just got attacked, and it was targeting a Tier 2 deck. It raises questions and concerns about the future of a game I love. That is something I'm passionate about arguing.
Flame imp is a decent at best opener, it was really the only 1 drop that could counter mana wyrm given that it has 3 health. However, flame imp has no snowball effect and it damages the player for 3 health which can matter drastically in most matchups. Mana wyrm had no draw back, it was a card that needed to be dealt with as soon as possible or it would start hitting you for 4+ damage each turn. Northshire cleric is no where near this power level, in my opinion.
I think instead of using our feelings, we should look at the facts. And the facts are that mage winrates have dropped below priest, potentially one of the worst classes currently. This timing is no coincidence, the mage winrate was carried on the back of mana wyrm. Now let's look at other power cards you mentioned, Northshire cleric has a 48.9% played winrate, this is nothing compared to pre-nerf mana wyrm. Flame imp has a 49.9% played winrate, again these so called "great openers" seem to help very little in the long run for the decks, if anything they hinder it given that most decks with flame imp have on average a 56.2% deck winrate. Edit: I checked and mage has the worst winrate throughout standard, wild and arena, but I'm sure that's totally just a coincidence and has nothing to do with the nerfs. :)
"This is to say that playing Mana Wyrm in the mid-game should be just as detrimental to the opponent as if it were played early. It boasting a negative win-rate post nerf could be the result of a number of things both involving and not involving Mana Wyrm directly. Plenty of players queue in without looking at the changes and then auto-concede when they realize a card got nerfed- automatic loss in the statistics. Other players foolishly play the same deck without changes without also realizing they now have no 1-drop minions to play in an aggro deck. People are now experimenting with different builds and that's swaying data as well. Directly following any change is a terrible time to take the win/loss data and try to generalize its previous power."
This whole part couldn't of been more out of touch, after the nerfs came out and when hearthstone was opened, it tells you what changed. This is just an excuse from people trying to defend the previous best one drop in the game. Now, we can keep trying to justify our thoughts even if some of us are wrong or we can accept that this card will never be 1 mana again and move on to playing more overpowered cards, as mage players seem to enjoy that. I suggest playing hunter, they have a 5 mana 12/12 that requires really no effort to achieve, just throw down a few secrets.
I found far different stats than you shared, but I suppose agree to disagree is where this has to go. My original point in my original post was: "...this meta was prided on each class having somewhat equal competitive opportunity." I just don't feel that Mage was hogging up so much of the meta that changing a core classic card in the way it was changed needed to be the answer. If a change was absolutely necessary I agree with the community that 1 mana 1/2 was the answer. The truth in the matter is Team 5 changed a T2 deck and left the T1 decks alone. I suppose from here we have to wait and see what is about to be announced/released.
I'm disgusted with Team5's approach to the game. Since beta they are actively making Mage class worse and worse while turning it into a meme class with the expansions.
They nerfed
They rotated Ice Lance and Ice Block to Hall of Fame and gave crappy cards instead like Icicle.
Every expansion since forever there's so much garbage for Mage. Most of the stupid random bullshit goes to Mage. Servant of Yogg-Saron of course goes to Mage. Deck of Wonders, Spellslinger? Sure, why not. Even good cards are random. Legendaries are also crap. Flame Leviathan, Anomalus, Toki, Time-Tinker - what's this meme idiocy? Inkmaster Solia is another level of bullshit - the devs made Kazakus for Mage at first, but then decided it's not fair to give good cards to a class they don't like and changed it to Solia.
There's never a tier 1 Mage deck, everything's a niche gimmick, yet every time an expansion is announced there are these guys who scream WOAH Luna's Pocket Galaxy is nuts! Mage will dominate everything!! Faceless Summoner is insane value, how could they release something like that?!
Then there's this even/odd deck archetype. Of course they both suck for Mage. Yet the devs just have to release a card to tease. Couldn't Black Cat just be a good value minion without shooting yourself in the foot for once?
Oh boy where to start, tempo mage was a tier one deck, it’s the main reason so many people played it, because it was so simple that even children could play it and successfully get to legend.
Every class gets garbage every single expansion, thinking that mage is the only one is such a selfish way of thinking. If anything, I’d say mage got some of the best cards this expansion, Stargazer luna and Luna’s pocket galaxy. Sure, pocket galaxy may seem garbage, but that is only because of how aggressive the meta is, it’s far too slow to compete with all the one turn kill decks and the aggressive ones.
Now, let’s have a peek at other terrible legendaries that came from boomsday and hopefully you won’t continue to be so simple minded. Flark’s Boom-zooka for hunter, Boommaster flark for hunter, Harbinger Celestia for all classes, Zerek, Master cloner for priest, Myra rotspring for rogue, Myra’s unstable element for rogue, Dr. Morrigan for warlock, The boomship for warrior. So, the more accurate statement is that Boomsday as a whole had garbage cards, not just mage.
The odd/even archetype clearly doesn’t work for every class, I think that’s apparent when you look at priest. Once again, your bias towards mage is showing. Toki is just like any “add a random card to your hand” if you get lucky, then you tend to think it’s good. Except toki has decent stats for her mana cost too. I finally agree with you about Inkmaster solia, that is trash tier, but as I said above it’s clearly not just mage.
The freeze archetype has never been good, they keep pushing new cards that can freeze things to no avail. Ice block was added to the hall of fame for obvious reasons, 3 mana gain a second life basically seems a little busted to me. Every class has been hit with nerfs, it’s again such a simple minded thing to try and complain about.
Tempo is a pretty easy deck with quick matches and it used to be pretty cheap to craft in the past, so it was popular. Yet popular doesn't mean tier 1. It has always been just okay.
I don't particularly care about Boomsday, I'm saying that this has been going right from the start. Mage got crap like Flame Leviathan expansion after expansion and you reply with Boomsday this and Boomsday that?
Freeze actually used to be one of the top decks. It was around for a very long time and it was kind of a solitaire deck so people disliked it a lot, thus it was killed off.
Many hearthstone streamers have said that tempo mage was a tier one deck, including trump. Obviously he can be wrong sometimes, but perhaps you saw his 100% winrate temp mage video. A “just okay” deck wouldn’t of made it into the lower end of legend.
Of course you don’t care much for boomsday, perhaps it’s due to it proving your point wrong. Or perhaps it’s due to the fact it was a fairly lacklustre expansion. My previous point of every expansion giving garbage to all classes stands, take witchwood perhaps. Just have a look at the full list for it and tell me with a straight face that mage was the only class that got terrible cards, if you can do that then you must be a masterful liar and I congratulate you for that. If we go to kobolds and catacombs, we will see Aluneth, Dragons fury, arcane artificer, explosive runes, Leyline manipulator, all really good cards for mage.
A point I’m trying to get you to understand is that some expansions are a swing and a miss, Blizzard isn’t trying to destroy mage, it’s just not feasible to print many more power cards for hearthstone given the power level of Ungoro, Knights of the frozen throne and kobolds and catacombs. Not every class is going to get insane cards every expansion (such as Druid getting potentially the worst legendaries of The witchwood “Duskfallen aviana” and “Splintergraft.”)
I do find it hard to believe that freeze was killed off with how much Blizzard tries to push freeze shaman, but I only started getting interested in this game a year ago so I’m not fully sure.
Yes, they went around it the wrong way. They should rather:
-Do nothing for now. Tier 2 decks are not problematic, especially with plenty of decks being very close in winrate.
-Let tempo mage be strong for a while with the obvious to-be-released synergy cards. Still don't think it would be even close to previous powerhouse decks.
-Let the hate build up.
-HOF it next rotation.
The big issue is that MAGE DOES NOT BUFF MINIONS. Mana wyrm was extremely important, and left a huge void for a healthy deck and playstyle (imo.)
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
They should have also nerfed Blessing of Might too, right? Because T1 Righteous Protector + T2 Blessing of Might is straight up broken.
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Baku rogue is far from the best, odd paladin unfortunately takes that prize. Try running doomsayer
Get off your high horse please. I'm not talking down to you and I don't appreciate being talked down to.
My argument is that Mage gets mostly bad and gimmicky cards every expansion and there haven't been really good mage decks in a very long time, probably since Freeze Mage. Every deck that pops up turns up to be lacking.
One of the problems is classic set, which has been butchered a lot since beta. Look at it - mostly useless freezing effects that don't see play outside very specialized decks, secrets that aren't played at all unless there's good support in newer sets. And now the class doesn't even have a 1 drop.
While we're at it, we absolutely need to nerf Radiant and Divine Spirit/Inner Fire for the same reason.
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Buff spells have to be stronger than minions to be playable. Please don't give Blizz any ideas, Rogue burst has taken some serious hits already.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
The bolded is a completely inaccurate statement, devoid of fact and based on the opinion of some streamers.
Did you forget Arcane Artificer? Hint: it's a 1 drop for mage I know that must be shocking. I'm only talking down to you due to your clear bias for mage, I literally listed many examples and yet here you are still trying to say mage only gets garbage cards, yikes.
Big spell mage is coming back as a deck, from looking at the stats and from personal experience. Instead of sitting around here moping, try getting out there and playing it.
Mage has some of the strongest classic cards, does a certain 4 mana deal 6 damage spell ring any bells? Also mage was one of the only 3 classes to have a one drop in the classic set, post mana wyrm nerf. Yep, only 3 classes out of 9 had the opportunity to run a 1 drop from their class, which mage was included in. Wow, that sure does sound like blizzard hates mage!! (sarcasm.)
All facts are just opinions people agreed on, is there anything different with this? The opinion of people defending mana wyrm say it was a tier 2 or worse deck, yet the people who disliked the card could see the truth, interesting. Have a watch of these videos and maybe you'll understand that a tier 2 deck wouldn't have a 100% winrate throughout 17 games. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzHHQg9s2yA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgbrrKPKG9Q
GUYS! NOW THEY HAVE TO CHANGE THE FLAVOR TEXT FOR RED MANA WYRM!!! AHHHHH PUT IT BACK! PUT IT BAAAAACK!!!!!!!
This space is intentionally blank.
I wrote a pretty in-depth thesis about the nerf. Everyone's thoughts?
I'm Nate and I enjoy writing. I got kicked off of my school newspaper so I figured I'd bring my passion to my favorite game.
It's from basic set if you don't know the difference.
I'm done talking to you, there's no point if you don't actually read what I post.
Yes, they do, when they are conditional. Kill Command 5 damage for 3 and Eviscerate 4 damage for 2 are very strong as well. Tribe buffers such as Crackling Razormaw would also be OP as unconditional.
Cold Blood is a great design imo, as deciding how to use it has a very high skillcap. That does not mean I think the Mana Wyrm nerf was good.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Why would you expect me to read what you post when you refuse to open your eyes to what I posted? I like how the one thing you had a response to was that, absolutely brilliant.
Let’s look at the classic list for mage. “Mostly useless freezing effects” there are two cards in that set which freeze an enemy, with one of those being Blizzard. It astonishes me how you call that card useless, really it’s mind boggling. Cone of cold certainly is not a top tier card, but it’s certainly not useless. Counterspell, mirror entity and spellbender were all run in some variation of tempo mage. And once again, only 3 classes out of 9 had a 1 drop minion in the classic set.
The whole “no 1 drop part” was clearly your weakest point, and I’m not sure how you ever thought that point would work. Brings a tear of joy to my eye when people have no idea what they’re saying.