Dark Pact is fine. Cubelock is fine. While the aggro player is trying to take down the lock player, the lock player is trying to survive till the end game. Win before the endgame as aggro or survive till the endgame and combo out. Both types of decks are capable of winning against the other. Healing and board control are core components in combo/control decks. Cubelock is mainly a combo deck.
The issue is the players who can't think for themselves on how to go about playing against specific decks. Once their style of play is stifled by a different play style, all they know how to do is complain. Don't want to play the counter against a specific deck or tech against it or learn the matchup and just improve as a player overall? Just leave the game because it's people like that who kill diversity.
Found the Cubelock only player.
FYI I have had everyTier1 and Tier2 deck going back the past year and half of Hearthstone when I started. I play every class, all sorts of decks, depending on meta, and the matchups I'm facing most frequently.
You want to talk about diversity? The diversity of Cubelock which can heal, taunt, charge, combo all in one deck.
Hmm yea learn to "play against it or be a better player". I play against it, I play with it, as I said I have every deck you can think of in Standard. I'm not worried about how good people are playing with or against cube, I'm not too worried at all.
But I think Dark Pact allowing a lot of reward for no investment, needs to be discussed.
I mainly play aggro, tempo and midrange decks. I've had my fair share of cubelock matchups. I win some and lose some.
My problem with these nerf threads, is that if cubelock is nerfed, that's one less deck we'll see in the meta.
There are a lot of cards that offer so much reward for no investment, but dark pact is not one of them. Divine Favor, Call to Arms, Spiteful Summoner, Ultimate Infestation, etc. The difference between these cards and dark pact is that you need to set up dark pact to reap the rewards, but you can just drop the listed cards with little to absolutely 0 set up.
There is nothing wrong with Dark Pact. In fact, it's actually underbudgeted. You gain a measly 1 mana advantage of a dedicated "Restore 8 health to your hero", which is worth less than 2 mana, for killing your own minion.
Possessed Lackey is the only issue whatsoever and I'm amazed how everyone keeps saying something else, like Dark Pact, Doomguard, Voidlord or Cube. It's just crystal clear.
The problem is healing because it puts you out of reach from burn while simultaneously putting up a taunt. You can't judge the card in a vacuum, but the combo it creates is particularly annoying because of the health. Put up a big taunt? Sure, put up a big taunt and half heal your hero not really
Dark Pact is fine. Cubelock is fine. While the aggro player is trying to take down the lock player, the lock player is trying to survive till the end game. Win before the endgame as aggro or survive till the endgame and combo out. Both types of decks are capable of winning against the other. Healing and board control are core components in combo/control decks. Cubelock is mainly a combo deck.
The issue is the players who can't think for themselves on how to go about playing against specific decks. Once their style of play is stifled by a different play style, all they know how to do is complain. Don't want to play the counter against a specific deck or tech against it or learn the matchup and just improve as a player overall? Just leave the game because it's people like that who kill diversity.
Found the Cubelock only player.
FYI I have had everyTier1 and Tier2 deck going back the past year and half of Hearthstone when I started. I play every class, all sorts of decks, depending on meta, and the matchups I'm facing most frequently.
You want to talk about diversity? The diversity of Cubelock which can heal, taunt, charge, combo all in one deck.
Hmm yea learn to "play against it or be a better player". I play against it, I play with it, as I said I have every deck you can think of in Standard. I'm not worried about how good people are playing with or against cube, I'm not too worried at all.
But I think Dark Pact allowing a lot of reward for no investment, needs to be discussed.
I mainly play aggro, tempo and midrange decks. I've had my fair share of cubelock matchups. I win some and lose some.
My problem with these nerf threads, is that if cubelock is nerfed, that's one less deck we'll see in the meta.
There are a lot of cards that offer so much reward for no investment, but dark pact is not one of them. Divine Favor, Call to Arms, Spiteful Summoner, Ultimate Infestation, etc. The difference between these cards and dark pact is that you need to set up dark pact to reap the rewards, but you can just drop the listed cards with little to absolutely 0 set up.
The set up is in the deck building limitations the cards push (made exception to divine favor, which can be played around to some extent).
The problem is healing because it puts you out of reach from burn while simultaneously putting up a taunt. You can't judge the card in a vacuum, but the combo it creates is particularly annoying because of the health. Put up a big taunt? Sure, put up a big taunt and half heal your hero not really
Again, "putting up a big taunt" IS NOT PART OF Dark Pact, but Lackey, which - again - is the key (problem) card here.
i guess the question is: is cubelock the problem, or is control lock? cubelock uses the card to enable a powerful combo. control lock uses it more for healing/anti-aggro. if it's the latter, nerfing dark pact nearly destroys the deck. if the problem is the former, nerfing dark pact (or lackey) does very little (especially because several potential replacement cards have been printed). if you want to nerf cubelock, you need to alter doomguard's battlecry to prevent burst from cube/guldan.
personally, i think nerfing control lock would generally be bad for the meta, and would just cause aggro to further proliferate. if anything needs a nerf, it's paladin - but the problem is that there is no single card to easily target, post-witchwood.
I agree that cubelock is a very powerful deck, no doubt. But looking at my records I don't have a terrible record against it nor is it's winrate above 60%, (numbers from hsreplay).
It's even been bumped down to tier 2. Also getting the nuts in any deck is usually going to feel a bit unfair to play against. You will not see every cubelock curving out perfectly everytime.
People seem to keep forgetting that there is variance in every card game, sometimes it works against you, thing is we easily forget when we are the lucky one. But being unlucky is remembered a lot longer.
I don't think cube need to be nerfed. It's hardly the only deck you meet anymore, all classes but shaman har a tier 2 deck at the moment.
IMO non of cubelock core card (stand alone) is OP,the power mostly come from synergy
-Dark Pact : we have Healing Touch for 3 mana but Dark Pact only heal your face and destroy one minion so 1 mana is fair
-Cube : not see any play (in serious deck) outside warlock
-Lackey : 5 mana 2/2 is terrible tempo .Sure it can cheat out big stuff but thats also mean you need at least one big demon in deck and it anti synergy with warlock hero power (draw card)
-Man'ari : same with Lackey but work with your hand so you need draw big demon
-Doomguard : this card exist since first day of HS and never OP
-Faceless and giant : same treatment with Doomguard
-Voidlord : this is controversial one.i agree it feel a bit OP but only against aggro,in control matchup it not really good even if you cheat it out on turn 6
- DK Guldan : Nzoth for demon,this is what 10 drop supposed to be
i can understand if Blizzard decide nerf cubelock but i feel we will have a new raza priest,when the consistent synergy gone nothing is OP
Just think of Dark Pact outside cubelock, it's not that good. Destroying a minion which you can deal dmg with just for 8 hp is not great and if they make it so it silences the target that would just be hate towards cubelock I think the best change for Dark Pact would be to reduce the heal to 6 since 8 is too good against aggro. If it healed for 6 hp it would still be playable and aggro would have more of a chance against cubelock
I think the card on itself is fine, it's mostly just the deck (cubelock) to which it interacts to effectively. That being said, I don't think a bit of less healing would be bad. 6-7 heal instead of 8 would be ok
Dark Pact is okay. Its like feign death or so. Problem is whole set of cards combined, creating fckn uncanny plays. If something, doomgurd could have battlecry: charge. So it does not attack your face when pulled out with something stupid like cubes or weapon. Add a perfect clears, powerful heals and DK with the best hero power in the game and you got the problem in this game as a whole. Dark pact itself is not it.
The problem is healing because it puts you out of reach from burn while simultaneously putting up a taunt. You can't judge the card in a vacuum, but the combo it creates is particularly annoying because of the health. Put up a big taunt? Sure, put up a big taunt and half heal your hero not really
Again, "putting up a big taunt" IS NOT PART OF Dark Pact, but Lackey, which - again - is the key (problem) card here.
The combo is broken, not lackey or pact by themselves. In my opinion it is better to nerf the heal rather than the lackey because it would let the archetype stay while giving it more clear weaknesses, but if you'd rather nerf lackey and destroy the archetype i guess its a matter of preference
Ahah the poll though. Do you think it's too cheap, heals too much, or are you retarded ?
I'd be the third I guess. The problem is others card having too much synergy with it, not the card itself. Would it be played in Control Mage ? (if we forget the Dragon's Furry) Probably not. So the 1 mana heals 8 sacrifice a friendly is not what's OP. Control Warrior wouldn't play this card either. Control Priest ? lul
Why are u ppl even crying bout that. I mean is even cubelock that strong or something? Cuz all i can see on the hearthpwn frontpage is paladin and i didnt even play lately against cubelock. Hell... I tried to play it but its just too weak against all those aggro decks. Like whats the point of this thread?
Ahah the poll though. Do you think it's too cheap, heals too much, or are you ******** ?
I'd be the third I guess. The problem is others card having too much synergy with it, not the card itself. Would it be played in Control Mage ? (if we forget the Dragon's Furry) Probably not. So the 1 mana heals 8 sacrifice a friendly is not what's OP. Control Warrior wouldn't play this card either. Control Priest ? lul
I keep seeing this argument over and over again, but its just dumb. Judging card by themselves is stupid because cards are not played in a 1 card deck. You have to judge the interactions they create, if you take ice lance out of mage it is worthless, and if you consider it by itself it is still worthless, but if you put it in a freeze mage deck it creates insane burst comboes. Power overwhelming isnt completely broken, but in combo warlock it created a nasty combo with leeroy and faceless. Same for coldlight oracle. You shouldn't judge cards in a vacuum.
Ahah the poll though. Do you think it's too cheap, heals too much, or are you ******** ?
I'd be the third I guess. The problem is others card having too much synergy with it, not the card itself. Would it be played in Control Mage ? (if we forget the Dragon's Furry) Probably not. So the 1 mana heals 8 sacrifice a friendly is not what's OP. Control Warrior wouldn't play this card either. Control Priest ? lul
I keep seeing this argument over and over again, but its just dumb. Judging card by themselves is stupid because cards are not played in a 1 card deck. You have to judge the interactions they create, if you take ice lance out of mage it is worthless, and if you consider it by itself it is still worthless, but if you put it in a freeze mage deck it creates insane burst comboes. Power overwhelming isnt completely broken, but in combo warlock it created a nasty combo with leeroy and faceless. Same for coldlight oracle. You shouldn't judge cards in a vacuum.
That's not really true though. Comparing this with Ice Lance is dumb : Ice Lance obviously has absolutly no synergy without a freeze effect. Dark Pact on the other hand doesn't need any class-related synergy to work, on its own heal 8 by killing one of your minions for 1 mana is not overpowered at all, that's why it wouldn't see play in other classes.
But it would be good in Cube Druid right ? And if you give good options to Mage and Warrior to use Cube, then it would be good in these classes too. So the problem is not that it's a Warlock card, the problem is Cube itself. Remove Dark Pact of the game, and Cubes would still be used with card like RatCatcher/sanguine/naturalize to abuse their effect. Remove Cube from the game, and Dark Pact suddenly doesn't need a nerf at all.
The Lackey + Pact on 6 pulling Voidlord would still be strong but you can play against it. You can silence it to get through, or just out-value the deck because only 4 voidlords is good but if you have no other threats it's not really oppressive. But left one Giant on the board and the other guy goes Umbra + Cube + Pact and suddenly you are facing 4 giants. This is stupid af, not pact itself.
Listen, all you gotta do is play Kobold Barbarian and hit the face behind the Voidlord. Never trade.
i guess the question is: is cubelock the problem, or is control lock?
cubelock uses the card to enable a powerful combo. control lock uses it more for healing/anti-aggro.
if it's the latter, nerfing dark pact nearly destroys the deck.
if the problem is the former, nerfing dark pact (or lackey) does very little (especially because several potential replacement cards have been printed). if you want to nerf cubelock, you need to alter doomguard's battlecry to prevent burst from cube/guldan.
personally, i think nerfing control lock would generally be bad for the meta, and would just cause aggro to further proliferate. if anything needs a nerf, it's paladin - but the problem is that there is no single card to easily target, post-witchwood.
I agree that cubelock is a very powerful deck, no doubt. But looking at my records I don't have a terrible record against it nor is it's winrate above 60%, (numbers from hsreplay).
It's even been bumped down to tier 2. Also getting the nuts in any deck is usually going to feel a bit unfair to play against. You will not see every cubelock curving out perfectly everytime.
People seem to keep forgetting that there is variance in every card game, sometimes it works against you, thing is we easily forget when we are the lucky one. But being unlucky is remembered a lot longer.
I don't think cube need to be nerfed. It's hardly the only deck you meet anymore, all classes but shaman har a tier 2 deck at the moment.
IMO non of cubelock core card (stand alone) is OP,the power mostly come from synergy
-Dark Pact : we have Healing Touch for 3 mana but Dark Pact only heal your face and destroy one minion so 1 mana is fair
-Cube : not see any play (in serious deck) outside warlock
-Lackey : 5 mana 2/2 is terrible tempo .Sure it can cheat out big stuff but thats also mean you need at least one big demon in deck and it anti synergy with warlock hero power (draw card)
-Man'ari : same with Lackey but work with your hand so you need draw big demon
-Doomguard : this card exist since first day of HS and never OP
-Faceless and giant : same treatment with Doomguard
-Voidlord : this is controversial one.i agree it feel a bit OP but only against aggro,in control matchup it not really good even if you cheat it out on turn 6
- DK Guldan : Nzoth for demon,this is what 10 drop supposed to be
i can understand if Blizzard decide nerf cubelock but i feel we will have a new raza priest,when the consistent synergy gone nothing is OP
Just think of Dark Pact outside cubelock, it's not that good. Destroying a minion which you can deal dmg with just for 8 hp is not great and if they make it so it silences the target that would just be hate towards cubelock I think the best change for Dark Pact would be to reduce the heal to 6 since 8 is too good against aggro. If it healed for 6 hp it would still be playable and aggro would have more of a chance against cubelock
Blizzard Make this
I think the card on itself is fine, it's mostly just the deck (cubelock) to which it interacts to effectively. That being said, I don't think a bit of less healing would be bad. 6-7 heal instead of 8 would be ok
Why u hav to be mad? is only card gaem.
Dark Pact is okay. Its like feign death or so. Problem is whole set of cards combined, creating fckn uncanny plays. If something, doomgurd could have battlecry: charge. So it does not attack your face when pulled out with something stupid like cubes or weapon. Add a perfect clears, powerful heals and DK with the best hero power in the game and you got the problem in this game as a whole. Dark pact itself is not it.
Ahah the poll though. Do you think it's too cheap, heals too much, or are you retarded ?
I'd be the third I guess. The problem is others card having too much synergy with it, not the card itself. Would it be played in Control Mage ? (if we forget the Dragon's Furry) Probably not. So the 1 mana heals 8 sacrifice a friendly is not what's OP. Control Warrior wouldn't play this card either. Control Priest ? lul
battlecry:charge for doomguard is the best solution
Why are u ppl even crying bout that. I mean is even cubelock that strong or something? Cuz all i can see on the hearthpwn frontpage is paladin and i didnt even play lately against cubelock. Hell... I tried to play it but its just too weak against all those aggro decks. Like whats the point of this thread?
You know, most people on this forum are traumatized by OTK Shudderwock Shaman so... Sometimes it's better not to ask.
Problem with Dark Pact it works with Possessed Lackey [/card] and [card]Carnivorous Cube There is two good way to prevent it.
1. Destroy a friendly minion with 4 or less mana, Restore 8 health to your hero.
2. Destroy a friendly minion with tribe, Restore 8 health to your hero.
So setting condition to the card will not hurt real purpose of the card which is restoring 8 health by sacrificing a small minion
Doom guard is not that much problem but there is a good way to nerf it.
Battlecry: Gain charge, Discard two random cards.
This way it will only have charge if you play it from your hand and it will not hurt too much archetype.
Possessed Lackey and Cube are the problems.
Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP