There are two main constructed Standard competitive modes : Tournament and Ladder.
Yet the meta between those are widely different due to Voidlord. This card summoned on turn 6 by controlish warlocks basically reads "game over for aggro deck unless you can silence it". However, in tournament, all pleayers have a cheap meta option to counter voidlord : just ban the warlock class:
This needs to be adressed, as tournament and ladder shoudl be similar game modes, either by nerfing voidlord OR by changing tournament format to "ban 3 classes, opponent can keep one of those 3".
I think the current distorsion is creating a distorted metagame wher eStandard and tournament mode feature very different game rankings
I prefer that ladder and tournaments have some unique aspects. Constantly watching/playing the exact same decks gets boring. The whole point of having a ban is so that pro players can tailor their deck in response to the decks they think will be popular. For example, because Priest and Warlock are the most popular control decks, a popular strategy is to ban Priest, then choose decks and tech cards that are strong against Warlock, while also being able to beat your opponents other decks. These other two decks will usually be something like Tempo Rogue, Aggro Druid, Zoolock, etc. Having bans adds to the strategic depth of tournaments, it's not an acknowledgement of an imbalanced meta game.
Besides, using bans as a reason to nerf Warlock is unreasonable. Priest is brought in many more line ups and is banned much more often than Warlock. There are 4-5 distinctly powerful builds of Priest right now. You seem like you don't watch many events and just want to complain about something?
In fact, I don't think you even read the link that you posted as "evidence". Warlock is the 3rd most brought class, behind Druid and Priest. More then half (8/14) of those Warlock decks aren't even Cubelock, the deck that you are complaining about. Please don't misappropriate evidence just because you have some unjustified hate of Warlock. If you dislike Warlock, then play something that beats it, like Highlander Priest, Spiteful Priest, Face Hunter, etc.
I don't think Warlock is unbalanced : it is not. It just hardcounters agro decks, as Voidlord ends the game of turn 6 if he hits the table and is not silenced..
This lead to a different meta between ladder and tournament, which is IMHO bad.
A solution would be to allow people to ban one class when queuing (this would have been bizarre during the "Druid meta" that plagued Frozen Throne before the nerfs).
Everyone seems to forget that if you want to always get a voidlord(doomguard against aggro is awful) it must be the only demon in your deck despite some powerfull others demons existing so its all about deck building and mana cheating with all recruit minions keywords warlock just has enough tools to suport the deck
Void Lord is not a problem, the stats and effect are completely ok for 9 mana, the problem is that you can consistenly cheat it out with Lackeys and the weapon so if something needs to be fixed is both of those cards and the interactions they have but imo I don't think Warlock needs to be fixed, there's a lot more shit I would target before Mr. void daddy.
Voidlord is not a problem at all, unless you play aggro/face decks, which should have counters. Voidlord is literally only good in aggro matchups - in control matchups it is easily removed - 3 attack is not a lot in those matches.
"Voidlord is literally only good in aggro matchups". It's good in any deck that uses a board of any type because it can soak up 18+ damage. It doesn't matter that the attack is 3 as its purpose is to stall and wear down your opponent's resources. It is not "easily removed" in control matchups as even once you kill the Voidlord, you need to deal with the 3 Voidwalkers which takes time and resources as well. And even if you do manage to build a board to kill off his hoard of Voidlords/walker, the warlock can just board clear you or bring them back using Bloodreaver. The deck is a value machine that can counter aggro while outlasting many control decks and the vast majority of this power comes from Voidlord. It's not OP because it can be countered with tech cards but that doesn't mean it's not a strong card.
We have to wait and see this week's Vicious Syndicate report, but the trend from the past 2 weeks has been that Control Warlock is a Tier 2-3 deck and declining because everyone is now teching against it. You should focus on the power of Bonemare and Cobalt Scalebane, some of the tools that have made Tempo Rogue a powerhouse for the past 3 months.
If you are interested, HSReplays tracks over one million games each day, and posts all their numbers on their live "Meta" page. Just hit the button at the top of their homepage. The tier list on HSReplays also makes more sense than the one published by VS - the HSR top tier consists of all the decks within a single standard deviation of the win-rate of the best-performing deck on ladder, while VS simply bunches decks into arbitrary 2% groups, while ignoring the standard error associated with their data.
FWIW - currently, Cubelock is squarely in the middle of the second tier, while Zoo is actually the best-performing Warlock deck on ladder.
Reflecting what many others have said here, voidlord is not that strong on its own, without a deck built around it its only a little stronger than sleepy Dragon and giant Mastodon.
However, possessed lackey can get it out turn 6, it can be brought back by bloodreaver guldan and nzoth, it's a safe target to cube because its deathrattle means you aren't vulnerable when you cube it, and warlock has cool things it can do in a long game, like cube/doomguard, rin, guldan, and nzoth. Warlock also has a bunch of healing it didn't used to have.
Its really a combination of a bunch of different factors that make this card good. I actually like it though. Playing frost lich jaina against control warlock is some of the most fun I've had in this game in a while.
Voidlord is not a problem at all, unless you play aggro/face decks, which should have counters. Voidlord is literally only good in aggro matchups - in control matchups it is easily removed - 3 attack is not a lot in those matches.
"Voidlord is literally only good in aggro matchups". It's good in any deck that uses a board of any type because it can soak up 18+ damage. It doesn't matter that the attack is 3 as its purpose is to stall and wear down your opponent's resources. It is not "easily removed" in control matchups as even once you kill the Voidlord, you need to deal with the 3 Voidwalkers which takes time and resources as well. And even if you do manage to build a board to kill off his hoard of Voidlords/walker, the warlock can just board clear you or bring them back using Bloodreaver. The deck is a value machine that can counter aggro while outlasting many control decks and the vast majority of this power comes from Voidlord. It's not OP because it can be countered with tech cards but that doesn't mean it's not a strong card.
It's 9 mana card it's suppose to be strong. People talk about VL. just forget to mention spiteful summoner, summon 12 mana minions on turn 6.
Summoner and barns, worst then Lackey or weapon, because they have to do something to draw the minions, and can be tech against. No way to tech a summoner.
Another thing that's worth noting is that you can just play around the Voidlords if you're aggro by saving direct damage for the final push. Of course, this depends on the deck, but if you weren't going to win by that time, I think others have noted that you weren't likely to win anyway.
We have to wait and see this week's Vicious Syndicate report, but the trend from the past 2 weeks has been that Control Warlock is a Tier 2-3 deck and declining because everyone is now teching against it. You should focus on the power of Bonemare and Cobalt Scalebane, some of the tools that have made Tempo Rogue a powerhouse for the past 3 months.
If you are interested, HSReplays tracks over one million games each day, and posts all their numbers on their live "Meta" page. Just hit the button at the top of their homepage. The tier list on HSReplays also makes more sense than the one published by VS - the HSR top tier consists of all the decks within a single standard deviation of the win-rate of the best-performing deck on ladder, while VS simply bunches decks into arbitrary 2% groups, while ignoring the standard error associated with their data.
FWIW - currently, Cubelock is squarely in the middle of the second tier, while Zoo is actually the best-performing Warlock deck on ladder.
Thanks for the heads up. I wouldnt discard VS so easily - I think their analysis is quite interesting (after all, numbers without interpretation are useless), not to mention that more of VS's data is free while most of HSRs is premium only. Besides, I cant find on HSR the amount of games of each archetype, which is important to me at least (on VS's reports that is literally the first thing they report).
To add to the standard deviation thing: if what you said is complete then HSR's choice of using the standard deviation as opposed to the confidence interval to define tiers is as arbitrary as the 2% groups.
As a summary, both tools seem compelling in order to decinde which deck to play or which card to craft; it might be a matter of preference which database we choose.
P.S.: the fact that Control Warlock is on Tier 2 in both databases reinforces my statement that Voidlord is not as broken as people think compared to some other cards or decks more impactful on the meta.
You are describing the difference between ladder and tournament. Voidlord is not the issue here. Ladder is.
^^ this, w efinally have a control meta and aggro players that literally dominated the meta for the last 3 years are crying?hypocrisy much? if anything theys hould just nerf charge so that minions regardles sof how they hit the battlefield can't attack face the turn they're summoned, i'd rather have nice cards than a broken mechanic that gets every nice card nerfed..
You are describing the difference between ladder and tournament. Voidlord is not the issue here. Ladder is.
^^ this, w efinally have a control meta and aggro players that literally dominated the meta for the last 3 years are crying?hypocrisy much? if anything theys hould just nerf charge so that minions regardles sof how they hit the battlefield can't attack face the turn they're summoned, i'd rather have nice cards than a broken mechanic that gets every nice card nerfed..
That’s an excellent suggestion. It might be a bit ugly to read but it would solve Blizzard’s problem with charge forever basically.
You are describing the difference between ladder and tournament. Voidlord is not the issue here. Ladder is.
^^ this, w efinally have a control meta and aggro players that literally dominated the meta for the last 3 years are crying?hypocrisy much? if anything theys hould just nerf charge so that minions regardles sof how they hit the battlefield can't attack face the turn they're summoned, i'd rather have nice cards than a broken mechanic that gets every nice card nerfed..
That’s an excellent suggestion. It might be a bit ugly to read but it would solve Blizzard’s problem with charge forever basically.
i've been saying this since Grim Patron was revealed when everyone thought it was just a gimmick, well turns out Patron became part of a consistent 60+ damage Otk thanks to charge and more than 80% of this game's nerfs are due to an interaction with charge and then the story repeated with the rogue quest where the real problem were the cheap evergreen chargers that will probably break a card again in the future and get it massively nerfedg because they are 1 mana chargers that will never rotate out, so unless we adress charge or at least hall of fame evergreen chargers, we'll keep gettin the same cycle of a bunch of nice cards nerfed because of charge.
You are describing the difference between ladder and tournament. Voidlord is not the issue here. Ladder is.
^^ this, w efinally have a control meta and aggro players that literally dominated the meta for the last 3 years are crying?hypocrisy much? if anything theys hould just nerf charge so that minions regardles sof how they hit the battlefield can't attack face the turn they're summoned, i'd rather have nice cards than a broken mechanic that gets every nice card nerfed..
That’s an excellent suggestion. It might be a bit ugly to read but it would solve Blizzard’s problem with charge forever basically.
i've been saying this since Grim Patron was revealed when everyone thought it was just a gimmick, well turns out Patron became part of a consistent 60+ damage Otk thanks to charge and more than 80% of this game's nerfs are due to an interaction with charge and then the story repeated with the rogue quest where the real problem were the cheap evergreen chargers that will probably break a card again in the future and get it massively nerfedg because they are 1 mana chargers that will never rotate out, so unless we adress charge or at least hall of fame evergreen chargers, we'll keep gettin the same cycle of a bunch of nice cards nerfed because of charge.
Well I predicted the same during spoiler season. Could you maybe, please, stop using the word ‘everyone’ when you have no clue how many people did or didn’t do what you are thinking? You could, if you still want to put yourself up there, use the words ‘almost everyone’. In this way you will maybe be right instead of being dead wrong.
I still like your charge mechanic change. A different solution would be to remove the Classic set entirely and make them all Hall of Fame. In this way they can control Standard again by releasing the right charge cards and let Wild be crazy which is fine.
In control matchups doomguard is the bigger problem since it ramps up to over 20 damage OTK. Thats basically the only thing i disslike witch cubelock.
Also a lot could be fixed with just releasing more cards that interact with deathreattle stuff and big minions. If every class would have a Palymorph/Hex kinda card Cubelock wouldnt be such a problem.
I dont think its good gamedesign forcing every deck to tech neutral cards/ooze/Spellbreaker insto every deck. Imo every class should have silence, morph and weapon removal in the basic set.
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Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
I don't think Warlock is unbalanced : it is not. It just hardcounters agro decks, as Voidlord ends the game of turn 6 if he hits the table and is not silenced..
This lead to a different meta between ladder and tournament, which is IMHO bad.
A solution would be to allow people to ban one class when queuing (this would have been bizarre during the "Druid meta" that plagued Frozen Throne before the nerfs).
Everyone seems to forget that if you want to always get a voidlord(doomguard against aggro is awful) it must be the only demon in your deck despite some powerfull others demons existing so its all about deck building and mana cheating with all recruit minions keywords warlock just has enough tools to suport the deck
Void Lord is not a problem, the stats and effect are completely ok for 9 mana, the problem is that you can consistenly cheat it out with Lackeys and the weapon so if something needs to be fixed is both of those cards and the interactions they have but imo I don't think Warlock needs to be fixed, there's a lot more shit I would target before Mr. void daddy.
Aggro players getting mad because there exists a card that requires them to do something other than smorc for one turn.
Going face isn't a game. There needs to be some kind of interaction.
Look at this thing and let me know what you think!
I can beat warlock, I never beat an aggro with board or not who put 1 (sometimes 2) corridor creeper for 0 and kill your turn 5/6.
Reflecting what many others have said here, voidlord is not that strong on its own, without a deck built around it its only a little stronger than sleepy Dragon and giant Mastodon.
However, possessed lackey can get it out turn 6, it can be brought back by bloodreaver guldan and nzoth, it's a safe target to cube because its deathrattle means you aren't vulnerable when you cube it, and warlock has cool things it can do in a long game, like cube/doomguard, rin, guldan, and nzoth. Warlock also has a bunch of healing it didn't used to have.
Its really a combination of a bunch of different factors that make this card good. I actually like it though. Playing frost lich jaina against control warlock is some of the most fun I've had in this game in a while.
Summoner and barns, worst then Lackey or weapon, because they have to do something to draw the minions, and can be tech against. No way to tech a summoner.
Another thing that's worth noting is that you can just play around the Voidlords if you're aggro by saving direct damage for the final push. Of course, this depends on the deck, but if you weren't going to win by that time, I think others have noted that you weren't likely to win anyway.
Nice
please address void lord, cube lock is disdainful and it's not the ways to cheat stuff...it's voidlord
In control matchups doomguard is the bigger problem since it ramps up to over 20 damage OTK. Thats basically the only thing i disslike witch cubelock.
Also a lot could be fixed with just releasing more cards that interact with deathreattle stuff and big minions. If every class would have a Palymorph/Hex kinda card Cubelock wouldnt be such a problem.
I dont think its good gamedesign forcing every deck to tech neutral cards/ooze/Spellbreaker insto every deck. Imo every class should have silence, morph and weapon removal in the basic set.
Assumednewb Name says it all.