If you Shadow Visions a candle and then manually cast the candle, it WILL trigger the opponent's darkness. Same goes if both players have the darkness dormant and you Thoughtsteal your own candles.
Happened to me when I was BMing with lethal in hand anyhow.
So seems like a bug.
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Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
It is definitely a bug IMO, it casts the darkness candle spell, so the wording on the darkness itself should not matter here. Darkness had its effect in shuffling those spells, but is not part of this interaction (other than being the target of the spell).
If you Shadow Visions a candle and then manually cast the candle, it WILL trigger the opponent's darkness. Same goes if both players have the darkness dormant and you Thoughtsteal your own candles.
Happened to me when I was BMing with lethal in hand anyhow.
So seems like a bug.
Interesting. If you can trigger by casting from hand, then definitely a bug.
It’s pretty clear that the darkness says “when drawn” but the grand archivist casts a spell from the deck, it doesn’t draw the spell from your deck then cast it.
Sorry but I don’t think this is a bug
^This.
Read the text on the Darkness minion, not the text on the candle spell. It clearly says the candles need to be DRAWN, and Archivist is casting it from your deck.
While is is ABSOLUTELY STUPID AND RIDICULOUS, it does not appear to be a bug; rather, a VERY POOR design decision by Blizzard.
Now, what I think they should do, is change Archivist's coding to DRAW the spell and then CAST it, so that way the interaction with the dormant Darkness still triggers. Alternatively, they change the text on the Darkness minion to "When drawn..." to "When all 3 are snuffed out..."
Ahh, right. So there's a bug in the discrepancy between the text on the candle, and on the darkness. That's a silly interaction indeed.
Yeah, that's really the crux of the issue: inconsistent card wording between card generator and card generated.
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Nature is the Day. Man is the Sun. Woman is the Moon. The Stone is the Sky. The Art is the Way.
It’s pretty clear that the darkness says “when drawn” but the grand archivist casts a spell from the deck, it doesn’t draw the spell from your deck then cast it.
Sorry but I don’t think this is a bug
^This.
Read the text on the Darkness minion, not the text on the candle spell. It clearly says the candles need to be DRAWN, and Archivist is casting it from your deck.
While is is ABSOLUTELY STUPID AND RIDICULOUS, it does not appear to be a bug; rather, a VERY POOR design decision by Blizzard.
Now, what I think they should do, is change Archivist's coding to DRAW the spell and then CAST it, so that way the interaction with the dormant Darkness still triggers. Alternatively, they change the text on the Darkness minion to "When drawn..." to "When all 3 are snuffed out..."
Ahh, right. So there's a bug in the discrepancy between the text on the candle, and on the darkness. That's a silly interaction indeed.
Yeah, that's really the crux of the issue: inconsistent card wording between card generator and card generated.
Except that manually casting a candle does indeed work, meaning the candles do not need to be drawn. See my previous post above.
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Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
It’s pretty clear that the darkness says “when drawn” but the grand archivist casts a spell from the deck, it doesn’t draw the spell from your deck then cast it.
Sorry but I don’t think this is a bug
^This.
Read the text on the Darkness minion, not the text on the candle spell. It clearly says the candles need to be DRAWN, and Archivist is casting it from your deck.
While is is ABSOLUTELY STUPID AND RIDICULOUS, it does not appear to be a bug; rather, a VERY POOR design decision by Blizzard.
Now, what I think they should do, is change Archivist's coding to DRAW the spell and then CAST it, so that way the interaction with the dormant Darkness still triggers. Alternatively, they change the text on the Darkness minion to "When drawn..." to "When all 3 are snuffed out..."
Ahh, right. So there's a bug in the discrepancy between the text on the candle, and on the darkness. That's a silly interaction indeed.
Yeah, that's really the crux of the issue: inconsistent card wording between card generator and card generated.
Except that manually casting a candle does indeed work, meaning the candles do not need to be drawn. See my previous post above.
It’s pretty clear that the darkness says “when drawn” but the grand archivist casts a spell from the deck, it doesn’t draw the spell from your deck then cast it.
"Draw a Card. When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this."
Possible wording of The Darkness that would make it absolutely consistent with the way Darkness Candle is actually worded:
"Starts dormant. Battlecry: Shuffle 3 candles into the enemy deck. When all 3 are cast, this awakens."
Note that this wording is slightly longer and doesn't give players a clear picture of how the mechanic works under normal circumstances. So it's unlikely they would go with this wording even if this is how it actually is supposed to work.
It’s pretty clear that the darkness says “when drawn” but the grand archivist casts a spell from the deck, it doesn’t draw the spell from your deck then cast it.
"Draw a Card. When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this."
That wouldn't be right either, in my opninion. If that was the text, it would mean you only get to snuff out a candle when you draw it, it still wouldn't trigger (based on its wording) by Grand Archivist.
My idea: "Draw a card. Snuff out a candle. Cast this when drawn. "
This would mean no matter how is the Darkness Candle cast, it will draw you a card and it will snuff out a candle, and it will cast itself when you draw it. I believe this is how it should work, and this is how the wording matches the supposed design.
All of the token cards says "Cast this when drawn"
Judging by these two sentences, should the token cards work when casted manually or via Grand Archivist? Let's consider both options.
If token cards fizzle when manually cast; the text on the token cards are untrue because they don't do what they say. The text on the creator card which only mentions drawing is still true.
If the token cards can be cast manually; the text on the token cards become true. The text on the creator cards are still true in this case, since they say what happens when you draw them, and does not specify that they don't work by casting them.
If any of these token cards fizzle, either by manual casting, or via Grand Archivist it has to be a bug.
Unless...
I don't know if the three candles are player specific, and whether Grand Archivist can target either player's imagined candles...
Well as I’ve said I may be wrong but I read the darkness as the main force in this, grand archivist doesn’t draw the card, the darkness clearly says “when drawn, this awakens”
This in a way makes grand archivist a counter to the darkness, other wise the darkness would be a card without a counter.
But I’ll say again since this seems to be irking some of you, I could be wrong but those are my thoughts
The counters to The Darkness are
a) rush your opponent down before the candles are drawn (aka aggro decks)
b) since chances are he awakens on your turn if at all, cast removal on him (ie SW:Death, Twisting Nether, Siphon Soul, Execute, Naturalize, Hunter's Mark, etc) - Control decks all should have some removal available, and save it for this.
So Aggro and Control both have ways to beat this... You don't need some weird, unintuitive interaction to beat this.
I hear what’s you’re saying, but you can’t seriously suggest a card counter is “win before your opponent does” - that’s essentially your point in rushing before darkness awakens. Although technically I guess that a counter to every card.
Well, it's a slow, control-ish card. Aggro beats Control by winning before their threats are online, not by removing them any more than necessary. So yeah, have a game plan that's faster than your opponent is a valid counter to anything slow. Trying to out-rush Murlocs would not be a good counter (AoE, heal, taunt etc might be).
On the other hand, having some card or interaction that physically breaks an opponents card is a very rare type of counter that would be unusual and generally unnecessary. My point was that aggro decks can win before he's active and control decks can remove him, so this interaction isn't a necessary counter.
I think this should be reported as a bug because a few days ago I played a game that contradicts this interaction. I don't track my games so I can't link anything but if you have a friend who has The Darkness or you do you can test this out pretty easy with some patience. I was playing thief priest to experiment with the new cards to decide what I wanted to craft and I was up against a mill druid. Shenanigans ensued and he and I both had The Darkness's on the board in dormant state. I originally was going to Drakonid Operative the last candle proc I needed because I actually stole the Darkness twice and the druid milled himself to try to deny me candle procs. When I drew the first of his candles I realized that it wouldn't work. I topdecked one of my Shadow Word: Death's when he was at 2/3 and decided my new strategy would be to try to play the candle I was holding in hand then Death his Darkness and I was able to do just that
So, yes, there is some sort of bug interaction between the archivist and the candle. Given how the Fal'dorei Strider procs work similarly I wonder if that interaction is wonky too? Ah well, back to lurking for me.
Edit: Adding The Darkness candle interactions I learned from that match in case more are interested.
Candles only count for one side of the board not both.
Candles can be stolen and cast from hand.
If you have multiple The Darkness cards on board a single candle works for all of them not just the first or second (could be useful for theorycrafting with dead man's hand warrior or some other type of minion duping deck).
Similar to Fal'dorei you can draw into two or more candles at a time.
If you mill a candle it doesn't proc (though this was already known).
After a little bit of thinking, this may actually not be a bug. Grand Archivist's text reads "At the end of your turn, cast a spell from your deck (targets chosen randomly)." It could be possible that the card cast on the wrong side of the board to trigger your Darkness. The only way to find out is if you tested it with two players both playing the Darkness and one playing a Grand Archivist though. I currently have neither card and can't afford to craft them "for science" so unfortunately it's up to someone else to spot check this for us.
After a little bit of thinking, this may actually not be a bug. Grand Archivist's text reads "At the end of your turn, cast a spell from your deck (targets chosen randomly)." It could be possible that the card cast on the wrong side of the board to trigger your Darkness. The only way to find out is if you tested it with two players both playing the Darkness and one playing a Grand Archivist though. I currently have neither card and can't afford to craft them "for science" so unfortunately it's up to someone else to spot check this for us.
In your previous post you mentioned that candles only works on either side. This seems to be the most natural explanation. So it's no bug, just less than ideal feedback on what is happening.
It’s pretty clear that the darkness says “when drawn” but the grand archivist casts a spell from the deck, it doesn’t draw the spell from your deck then cast it.
"Draw a Card. When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this."
That wouldn't be right either, in my opninion. If that was the text, it would mean you only get to snuff out a candle when you draw it, it still wouldn't trigger (based on its wording) by Grand Archivist.
My idea: "Draw a card. Snuff out a candle. Cast this when drawn. "
This would mean no matter how is the Darkness Candle cast, it will draw you a card and it will snuff out a candle, and it will cast itself when you draw it. I believe this is how it should work, and this is how the wording matches the supposed design.
I completely agree with you, although I don't see what your idea of re-ordering the spell effects would accomplish.
My point was that if Darkness Candle wasn't supposed to snuff out a candle when cast by Grand Archivist, it would have been easy to word it in a way consistent with that.
It's not a simple reorder, there is a change in the way if it works. If it said "When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this", it would mean it only snuffs out a candle when it's drawn, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. By writing all card effects separately, it means they are independent from each other, and the effects are the same, no matter how it's cast (drawing it, casting from your hand, cast by Grand Archivist).
It's not a simple reorder, there is a change in the way if it works. If it said "When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this", it would mean it only snuffs out a candle when it's drawn, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. By writing all card effects separately, it means they are independent from each other, and the effects are the same, no matter how it's cast (drawing it, casting from your hand, cast by Grand Archivist).
That wording - where the candle is only snuffed out when drawn - would be consistent with The Darkness. One or the other needs to be changed for clarity - because whilst the candle agrees with your interpretation, the wording of the darkness does not.
The Darkness actually doesn't say casting won't work. All it says is that drawing them will awaken him. It's a big difference. If I say "playing Novice Engineer will draw you a card", I don't say that you cannot draw cards in any other way.
I think the far more likely scenario is that Darkness Candle works exactly as intended. What happened with Grand Archivist is that he targetted the other player (targets chosen randomly). In the end of that game the 3 snuffed out candles were spread between the two players, neither having 3 snuffed out, so The Darkness never awakened.
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If you Shadow Visions a candle and then manually cast the candle, it WILL trigger the opponent's darkness. Same goes if both players have the darkness dormant and you Thoughtsteal your own candles.
Happened to me when I was BMing with lethal in hand anyhow.
So seems like a bug.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
It is definitely a bug IMO, it casts the darkness candle spell, so the wording on the darkness itself should not matter here. Darkness had its effect in shuffling those spells, but is not part of this interaction (other than being the target of the spell).
Nature is the Day.
Man is the Sun.
Woman is the Moon.
The Stone is the Sky.
The Art is the Way.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Possible wording of Darkness Candle that would make it consistent with this interpretation of The Darkness:
"Draw a Card. When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this."
Possible wording of The Darkness that would make it absolutely consistent with the way Darkness Candle is actually worded:
"Starts dormant. Battlecry: Shuffle 3 candles into the enemy deck. When all 3 are cast, this awakens."
Note that this wording is slightly longer and doesn't give players a clear picture of how the mechanic works under normal circumstances. So it's unlikely they would go with this wording even if this is how it actually is supposed to work.
The text of Darkness Candle is "Draw a card", I think "Snuff out a candle" is just flavor text.
The Darkness said that it gains a conter when the candle is drawn, meaning whether it unleash or not is its own power not the candle power
Edit: NVM I didn't read
Vote for my Card Design Submission! I love this one!
Judging by these two sentences, should the token cards work when casted manually or via Grand Archivist? Let's consider both options.
If token cards fizzle when manually cast; the text on the token cards are untrue because they don't do what they say. The text on the creator card which only mentions drawing is still true.
If the token cards can be cast manually; the text on the token cards become true. The text on the creator cards are still true in this case, since they say what happens when you draw them, and does not specify that they don't work by casting them.
If any of these token cards fizzle, either by manual casting, or via Grand Archivist it has to be a bug.
Unless...
I don't know if the three candles are player specific, and whether Grand Archivist can target either player's imagined candles...
I think this should be reported as a bug because a few days ago I played a game that contradicts this interaction. I don't track my games so I can't link anything but if you have a friend who has The Darkness or you do you can test this out pretty easy with some patience. I was playing thief priest to experiment with the new cards to decide what I wanted to craft and I was up against a mill druid. Shenanigans ensued and he and I both had The Darkness's on the board in dormant state. I originally was going to Drakonid Operative the last candle proc I needed because I actually stole the Darkness twice and the druid milled himself to try to deny me candle procs. When I drew the first of his candles I realized that it wouldn't work. I topdecked one of my Shadow Word: Death's when he was at 2/3 and decided my new strategy would be to try to play the candle I was holding in hand then Death his Darkness and I was able to do just that
So, yes, there is some sort of bug interaction between the archivist and the candle. Given how the Fal'dorei Strider procs work similarly I wonder if that interaction is wonky too? Ah well, back to lurking for me.
Edit: Adding The Darkness candle interactions I learned from that match in case more are interested.
Another question for OP:
Did the "draw a card" portion of the candle work work archivist? Or was it a total whiff?
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
After a little bit of thinking, this may actually not be a bug. Grand Archivist's text reads "At the end of your turn, cast a spell from your deck (targets chosen randomly)." It could be possible that the card cast on the wrong side of the board to trigger your Darkness. The only way to find out is if you tested it with two players both playing the Darkness and one playing a Grand Archivist though. I currently have neither card and can't afford to craft them "for science" so unfortunately it's up to someone else to spot check this for us.
It's not a simple reorder, there is a change in the way if it works. If it said "When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this", it would mean it only snuffs out a candle when it's drawn, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. By writing all card effects separately, it means they are independent from each other, and the effects are the same, no matter how it's cast (drawing it, casting from your hand, cast by Grand Archivist).