Hearthpwn

Quote from WraithM >>

Quote from KRFournier >>

I like Brian Kibler's remarks in his video. His point is not that Quest is over-powered. The problem is that you cannot tech against it. The only reliable way to beat Quest Rogue is to race them. And it has to be a very fast race, which is why Pirate Warrior or aggressive Murloc Paladin can work well. But that's it. Race them or lose, because they have too much power for most decks to effectively deal with once the quest is complete. Even classes with sufficient board clears struggle to deal with a board immediately reloaded with charging 5/5s.

In contrast, Freeze Mage can be beaten by racing them, adding Eater of Secrets, or adding healing cards. Pirate warrior can be beaten by adding early game removal, more taunt, or more healing.

There needs to be more ways to deal with it. Kibler goes into those as well. I can't help but agree with him that cards like Mass Dispel should remove the 5/5 stats. Barring that, adjusting the stats to 4/4 would go a long way.

I also liked Kibler's video, he made very many good points for and against various balance ideas and acknowledged that there is no easy answer as to how to move forward. Finding a tech card that isn't OP against a wide swath of decks or isn't too narrow to be worth including is difficult. To briefly state my viewpoint, I want Crystal Rogue to remain playable if a change needs to be made and I believe Kibler shares that viewpoint while pointing out the current downsides.

Under the hood I believe the Crystal Core changes the vanilla stats, so it makes sense to me that silence and transform don't remove the 5/5 stats from Crystal Rogue's minions. However, the new vanilla stats currently display as a buff (seen as the green numbers) and I think this should be changed to a different color like blue so as to give a visual cue that they are different from buffs.

If Mass Dispel (and Silence in general) were to be changed though, this only gives Priests a tech card against Crystal Rogue, and I don't see that being well received by players who favor other classes. Most tech cards are neutral like Eater of Secrets or Golakka Crawler, but this illustrates another problem because if they are neutral then they are equally playable by Aggro and Control.

I've heard it said that the difference between 4 and 5 health is huge and I personally don't feel Crystal Rogue would be playable as 4/4's. Those stats are awfully similar to Aggro stats but Aggro will be playing on curve while Crystal Rogue would be expending tempo to only gain a power level comparable to what Aggro has already curved into.

If it's that hard to understand that decreasing a win rate of a deck that's already tier 3 will make it a tier 4 aka unplayable deck in competitive environment is so hard to understand that I'm sorry to say but you don't seem a very good hearthstone player .

It's not just about lowering a deck win rate . People here want to lower the deck's win rate against the deck that is actually made to beat . Well if a deck becomes only 50+ something favored vs the decks that is made to beat why play the deck at all ?

Anyway I'm totally wasting my time here explaining competitive hearthstone principles to people who simply hate an archetype and want to see it deleted from the game .

Quote from robert_fanr >>

If it's that hard to understand that decreasing a win rate of a deck that's already tier 3 will make it a tier 4 aka unplayable deck in competitive environment is so hard to understand that I'm sorry to say but you don't seem a very good hearthstone player .

It's not just about lowering a deck win rate . People here want to lower the deck's win rate against the deck that is actually made to beat . Well if a deck becomes only 50+ something favored vs the decks that is made to beat why play the deck at all ?

Anyway I'm totally wasting my time here explaining competitive hearthstone principles to people who simply hate an archetype and want to see it deleted from the game .

Quote from robert_fanr >>

The way quest rogue works right now is perfectly balanced from a winrate perspective and that's the most important aspect imo . Why do you think un goro is the best meta so far ? Because win rates are overall very well spread among different archetypes , making the meta diverse and a little unstable. Changing even one deck into making it unplayable might shift everything into a boring meta where some decks don't have enough counters .

 

Quote from GrandPatzer >>

Quote from robert_fanr >>

 

So I would only agree with you people to nerf the quest , if blizzard would decide to actually give quest rogue some more early tools to fight as well . That way it could become a balanced deck , and maybe make people more happy playing with or against it . But just nerfing it would simply delete the deck from the game and that's not an elegant solution.

Changing the quest to "play 5 minions with same cost" would not delete the deck from the game.

Quote from GrandPatzer >>

Quote from robert_fanr >>

Quote from WraithM >>

Quote from KRFournier >>

I like Brian Kibler's remarks in his video. His point is not that Quest is over-powered. The problem is that you cannot tech against it. The only reliable way to beat Quest Rogue is to race them. And it has to be a very fast race, which is why Pirate Warrior or aggressive Murloc Paladin can work well. But that's it. Race them or lose, because they have too much power for most decks to effectively deal with once the quest is complete. Even classes with sufficient board clears struggle to deal with a board immediately reloaded with charging 5/5s.

In contrast, Freeze Mage can be beaten by racing them, adding Eater of Secrets, or adding healing cards. Pirate warrior can be beaten by adding early game removal, more taunt, or more healing.

There needs to be more ways to deal with it. Kibler goes into those as well. I can't help but agree with him that cards like Mass Dispel should remove the 5/5 stats. Barring that, adjusting the stats to 4/4 would go a long way.

I also liked Kibler's video, he made very many good points for and against various balance ideas and acknowledged that there is no easy answer as to how to move forward. Finding a tech card that isn't OP against a wide swath of decks or isn't too narrow to be worth including is difficult. To briefly state my viewpoint, I want Crystal Rogue to remain playable if a change needs to be made and I believe Kibler shares that viewpoint while pointing out the current downsides.

Under the hood I believe the Crystal Core changes the vanilla stats, so it makes sense to me that silence and transform don't remove the 5/5 stats from Crystal Rogue's minions. However, the new vanilla stats currently display as a buff (seen as the green numbers) and I think this should be changed to a different color like blue so as to give a visual cue that they are different from buffs.

If Mass Dispel (and Silence in general) were to be changed though, this only gives Priests a tech card against Crystal Rogue, and I don't see that being well received by players who favor other classes. Most tech cards are neutral like Eater of Secrets or Golakka Crawler, but this illustrates another problem because if they are neutral then they are equally playable by Aggro and Control.

I've heard it said that the difference between 4 and 5 health is huge and I personally don't feel Crystal Rogue would be playable as 4/4's. Those stats are awfully similar to Aggro stats but Aggro will be playing on curve while Crystal Rogue would be expending tempo to only gain a power level comparable to what Aggro has already curved into.

Point A

While technically some of this small nerfs seem reasonable, they are not and let me tell you why :

You control guys want to be 50 50 or at least 40+ 50+ vs quest rogue . (that's the main purpose of nerfs ever, increasing win rate for other decks against the nerfed one)

This seems like a healthy change but it's not because at that point people would have no reason to play quest rogue at all . Would you play a deck in the hope of getting a slightly favorable math up ?? I wouldn't . The way quest rogue works right now is perfectly balanced from a winrate perspective and that's the most important aspect imo . Why do you think un goro is the best meta so far ? Because win rates are overall very well spread among different archetypes , making the meta diverse and a little unstable . Changing even one deck into making it unplayable might shift everything into a boring meta where some decks don't have enough counters .

So I would only agree with you people to nerf the quest , if blizzard would decide to actually give quest rogue some more early tools to fight as well . That way it could become a balanced deck , and maybe make people more happy playing with or against it . But just nerfing it would simply delete the deck from the game and that's not an elegant solution .

 

I know what you're gonna say:" But but that's not the point . The point is we want to feel like we can do something in every game to be able to win , we want to be able to tech, etc etc"

Let me tell you something : How many games do you feel like your moves actually influence the end result more than the RNG ? How many times did you draw your tech card in the wrong match up and it was your last card in the match up you actually wanted to draw it ? In how many games did you feel like the opponent just drew the nuts and there was nothing you could have done even if you could chose what cards to have in hand ?

What I'm trying to say is you might feel more in control building your deck with techs and stuff and trying to play optimally but actually the most important factors are always random, starting from match making faze .

This game is not about being able to win every game . This game is about having an overall win rate better than other people, is about grinding, is about playing as many games necessary to achieve your goal .

But someone will say: "But I don't care about winning and grinding, I want to have fun !, I want to interact with opponent etc etc".

Well, if you don't care about winning win rate and grinding, there's a very simple solution to facing quest rogue problem : just concede and queue into the next game . It takes 10 seconds to realiase you play against quest rogue (turn 1) so you don't even have to waste any time . Also it's not like quest rogue is so poplar these days that you encounter it every other game . If it was than it truly would have been worthy of a nerf .

I hope this answers pretty much every argument there is in this thread .

I will conclude by reminding you of a very good proverb that illustrates this situation the best :

 

Changing the quest to "play 5 minions with same cost" would not delete the deck from the game. I'm not even gonna argue with you about this one, you clearly are defending the deck you finally got to rank6 with so discussing this with you is useless.

 

If at all, try not to attribute motives. This isn't about making control players happy or just being salty (though I can't speak for everyone in this thread). That is why I emphasized the need to allow more answers rather than to just nerf the deck into oblivion. I like the deck concept, and if there is no way to make some kind of change without killing the deck, I'd rather keep it around. If changing the stats to 4/4 is too extreme, so be it, but anything that allows a other classes to interact with the deck will improve the overall enjoyment of the match up. That's why I suggested silence effects being more effective. The existence of Spellbreaker and Ironbeak Owl as neutral cards would allow other decks to tech for the match up, adding one more way to combat the deck.

If I could sum up my thesis: decks should have multiple consistent counters that do not have to be equally efficacious.

I grant there are other counters to Quest Rogue. Mages can play turn 1 Kabal Lackey into Counterspell, but that is not remotely consistent. Most classes that can clear a board of 5/5s can only do so with the right combination of cards, 6 mana, or both; yet this is still inconsistent because those classes usually cannot deal with the board immediately filling up with 5/5s on the next turn.

I know people are quick to judge, assuming that critics must only like archetype X and want to nerf all its counters, but that's not the case for me here. I've enjoyed playing a variety of decks in this expansion. The meta is healthy. There's nothing wrong, however, with pondering ways to make the meta a tad fitter.

Quote from GrandPatzer>>

Quote from WraithM>>

Quote from GrandPatzer>>

Changing the quest to "play 5 minions with same cost" would not delete the deck from the game.

 What does changing the quest to "play 5 minions with the same cost" accomplish?

 Someone's being cheeky.

it wont change that much but you still get turn or two more to get on the board which is actually a pretty big deal.

I don't want to nerf the quest out of the game but in its current state it is way too easy to complete and this fix would bite into this problem directly.

Quote from GrandPatzer >>

Quote from robert_fanr >>

If it's that hard to understand that decreasing a win rate of a deck that's already tier 3 will make it a tier 4 aka unplayable deck in competitive environment is so hard to understand that I'm sorry to say but you don't seem a very good hearthstone player .

It's not just about lowering a deck win rate . People here want to lower the deck's win rate against the deck that is actually made to beat . Well if a deck becomes only 50+ something favored vs the decks that is made to beat why play the deck at all ?

Anyway I'm totally wasting my time here explaining competitive hearthstone principles to people who simply hate an archetype and want to see it deleted from the game .

 Im'ma make an exception and reply to your comment tho i normally leave idiots to their own misery. 

In what fucking world is QR tier3? 

"You dont seem like a very good player" Pls comeback again when you are 45x legend with 15 top100 finishes. 

It is obvious that you are too shit to get high ranks with any other deck than the deck that does not care about anything the opponent does. You could literally put a paper on top of the opponents side of board and play QR.

Now im done with you. Go back to the dumpster, scrub.

Quote from KRFournier>>

The existence of Spellbreaker and Ironbeak Owl as neutral cards would allow other decks to tech for the match up, adding one more way to combat the deck.

Perhaps I am resistant to this idea because I don't like the idea of the Quest Reward being removable (only Galvadon comes to mind, and I think Blizzard probably failed there), though it would still be in place for your other minions and you could reapply the effect with bounce if the silenced target didn't die. That being said, those are just single target effects with poor stats for their cost. Is that really what the other decks (ie non-Priests) need to combat Crystal Rogue? Just my perspective here, I personally don't think changing it now would be worth the effort.

The meta is healthy. There's nothing wrong, however, with pondering ways to make the meta a tad fitter.

Quote from KRFournier >>

If at all, try not to attribute motives. This isn't about making control players happy or just being salty (though I can't speak for everyone in this thread). That is why I emphasized the need to allow more answers rather than to just nerf the deck into oblivion. I like the deck concept, and if there is no way to make some kind of change without killing the deck, I'd rather keep it around. If changing the stats to 4/4 is too extreme, so be it, but anything that allows a other classes to interact with the deck will improve the overall enjoyment of the match up. That's why I suggested silence effects being more effective. The existence of Spellbreaker and Ironbeak Owl as neutral cards would allow other decks to tech for the match up, adding one more way to combat the deck.

If I could sum up my thesis: decks should have multiple consistent counters that do not have to be equally efficacious.

I grant there are other counters to Quest Rogue. Mages can play turn 1 Kabal Lackey into Counterspell, but that is not remotely consistent. Most classes that can clear a board of 5/5s can only do so with the right combination of cards, 6 mana, or both; yet this is still inconsistent because those classes usually cannot deal with the board immediately filling up with 5/5s on the next turn.

I know people are quick to judge, assuming that critics must only like archetype X and want to nerf all its counters, but that's not the case for me here. I've enjoyed playing a variety of decks in this expansion. The meta is healthy. There's nothing wrong, however, with pondering ways to make the meta a tad fitter.

Interesting anecdote. I just now played against Quest Rogue as Shaman. I had a full board, full health, card advantage, and two hexes and a devolve in my hand, yet I already knew I lost. I think that helps pinpoint people's frustrations. As a general rule, people get annoyed when everything they do amounts to nothing. Granted, Quest Rogue is a hard counter to my Shaman deck. I get that. But it's one thing to be countered by tech cards, superior play, or plain bad luck. It's another thing to be countered in such a way that you've lost before the game started.

People just want their cards to work. Nobody is asking for their cards to automatically win, but they would like them to work.

@KRFournier; also anecdotally, I've beaten Quest Rogue with Control Shaman (and my list is not particularly fast or particularly good). Aggressive use of Hex/Devolve is pretty important, and if I had actually built it more proactively I think it would been a lot easier to push the game. Keep in mind, I'm not favored and I realize that; all I did was play to the weaknesses of Rogue the best I could, got a bit lucky, and won, simply because my mindset wasn't that I had lost the game before it had even started. Mindset in those matchups is exactly where I think people tend to sabotage themselves. It was a very close win and a very tricky game to navigate, but giving up doesn't help either of those.

I'm not arguing against the deck needing adjustments, I believe I've stated not so distantly that Charge is where I think the list gets too nutty for its own good; I think it should be strong for how tricky it can be to play, but similar to Patron it's much healthier in my mind as a list that wins with midrange pressure more than burst combos. What I am arguing against is the defeatism that generally goes alongside analysis of this deck, or something like Jade Druid.

Quote from GibreelFurious >>

So you're basically saying that pros from all over the world are consistently deploying a tier 3 deck in tournaments, right? Just to know, what tier do tou think quest warrior and pirate warrior are?

Quote from GrandPatzer >>

Quote from Prudence94 >>

Quote from GibreelFurious >>

So you're basically saying that pros from all over the world are consistently deploying a tier 3 deck in tournaments, right? Just to know, what tier do tou think quest warrior and pirate warrior are?

Tournaments and Ladder are two very different things... In a tournament you can ban your bad MU (Aggro for Quest Rogue) and take your chances against other Decks... That's not something you can do in Ladder,so yes Quest Rogue is definitely Tier 3 when it comes to Ranked but it's pretty good in tournaments thanks to its polarizing Mus...  

Tempostorm is ranking QR as tier2 deck, higher than silence priest or jade druid. This is only because people are playing aggro decks/teching against QR to have a chance against this disease. Otherwise, it would be tier1. There is much more aggro decks between ranks 10-1 but once you hit top500 legend, pretty much every other game is versus QR. 

The quest is broken, stop defending it pls. I know you finally reached rank10 with it but still.

• You're mentioning Tempostorm as if their snapshot was the unquestionable truth which obviously isn't.... Anyway, I checked on other sites (VS,Metastats) and the Deck is listed as Tier 3 or high Tier 2 so I wasn't exactly wrong....
• You can't Tech against Quest Rogue.... Dirty Rat is the closest thing to a tech card there is but it's not guaranteed to work.....
• I wasn't defending it,I was just stating the truth... Tournaments and Ladder are completely different and comparing Deck performances between the two it's pretty stupid....

I guess I could try to make you understand the reasonings behind my previous posts but judging by the way you "attacked" me earlier it's pretty clear that it would be pointless.... 

Quote from GrandPatzer >>

Quote from Prudence94 >>

Quote from GrandPatzer >>

Quote from Prudence94 >>

Quote from GibreelFurious >>

So you're basically saying that pros from all over the world are consistently deploying a tier 3 deck in tournaments, right? Just to know, what tier do tou think quest warrior and pirate warrior are?

Tournaments and Ladder are two very different things... In a tournament you can ban your bad MU (Aggro for Quest Rogue) and take your chances against other Decks... That's not something you can do in Ladder,so yes Quest Rogue is definitely Tier 3 when it comes to Ranked but it's pretty good in tournaments thanks to its polarizing Mus...  

Tempostorm is ranking QR as tier2 deck, higher than silence priest or jade druid. This is only because people are playing aggro decks/teching against QR to have a chance against this disease. Otherwise, it would be tier1. There is much more aggro decks between ranks 10-1 but once you hit top500 legend, pretty much every other game is versus QR. 

The quest is broken, stop defending it pls. I know you finally reached rank10 with it but still.

• You're mentioning Tempostorm as if their snapshot was the unquestionable truth which obviously isn't.... Anyway, I checked on other sites (VS,Metastats) and the Deck is listed as Tier 3 or high Tier 2 so I wasn't exactly wrong....
• You can't Tech against Quest Rogue.... Dirty Rat is the closest thing to a tech card there is but it's not guaranteed to work.....
• I wasn't defending it,I was just stating the truth... Tournaments and Ladder are completely different and comparing Deck performances between the two it's pretty stupid....

I guess I could try to make you understand the reasonings behind my previous posts but judging by the way you "attacked" me earlier it's pretty clear that it would be pointless.... 

 Yes, you are completely right. You cant tech against QR, which is one big reason the deck is so overpowered. Dirty Rat and Golakka Crawler are the only cards worth mentioning. Maybe my choice of word was not correct but i hope you see my point which is that QR is only tier2 because people are heavily countering it by playing aggro+including golakka crawlers in their decks not just for pirate warrior MU but also because of QR's. 

Yes I do get that if the meta was slower then QR would be bonkers but chances of that happening are quite low... There are always going to be Aggro Decks so in Ranked I don't see the Deck ever being as dominant as other Decks we had in the past (Mid Shaman,Patron,Undertaker,Old Miracle)....

I don't refer to TS as truth, actually i usually don't give a shit about deck tier rankings but since people are claiming its tier3 all the time, i just pointed this one out. 

Thing is that the Deck IS Tier 3 or at least it's close to being Tier 3 (The numbers confirm that) so you can't really blame people for saying so...

Yes, i do know tournaments and ladder are completely different since i have played in both online and offline tournaments for years and got to legend nearly 50 times with numerous top100 finishes, the problem with QR is exactly the ladder experience. If you hate QR enuf, you can just ban rogue in tournaments all together, problem solved. Not the case in ladder. 

This exactly all I was trying to say in my previous post... I wasn't trying to defend a Deck which is based around a clearly bad designed card,I was just pointing out that you can't compare Deck's performance on ladder and in tournaments cause the environment is completely different... 

One good point is that nearly all tier 1 decks are QR counters. You basically play QR counter or QR in order to reach good ranks and this stinks. The quest needs a nerf and everyone claiming otherwise is just defending the deck they are successful with.

I'm not really sure I agree on this... I mean,I would love if it happened (I even have a copy of the card that I know I'll never use so getting full dust out of it would be nice) but I'm not sure the Quest itself is the problem....  Setting aside the fact that is awful to play against,unless they can use Preparation or get a lucky draw they won't complete the Quest before turn 6/7 and at that point you should be able to deal with their board... Personally my biggest problem is all those Charges that keep getting bounced back several times.... TL;DR Yes I think the Deck might use some changes but I don't think they should change Crystal Core itself (If not for something like having Silence/Debuffs affect the minions) but rather just try to slow the Deck down... 

Quote from Prudence94 >>

Tournaments and Ladder are two very different things... In a tournament you can ban your bad MU (Aggro for Quest Rogue) and take your chances against other Decks... That's not something you can do in Ladder,so yes Quest Rogue is definitely Tier 3 when it comes to Ranked but it's pretty good in tournaments thanks to its polarizing Mus...  

Quote from Clord >>

I could see some card designer working at Blizzard think that the Caverns Below card was well balanced.

The quest reward costs five mana to play. Thus opponent should have cards that are strong enough to combat that. Well, it doesn't really work like that. It allows you to overwhelm your opponent while having a second spam wave in a case the first gets cleared.

Quote from Tze >>

@KRFournier; also anecdotally, I've beaten Quest Rogue with Control Shaman (and my list is not particularly fast or particularly good). Aggressive use of Hex/Devolve is pretty important, and if I had actually built it more proactively I think it would been a lot easier to push the game. Keep in mind, I'm not favored and I realize that; all I did was play to the weaknesses of Rogue the best I could, got a bit lucky, and won, simply because my mindset wasn't that I had lost the game before it had even started. Mindset in those matchups is exactly where I think people tend to sabotage themselves. It was a very close win and a very tricky game to navigate, but giving up doesn't help either of those.