(Note: This post does not put Arena into consideration)
Train of Thoughts
After Megasaur's inclusion into Un'goro, I started thinking about filler cards. And more specifically about 10 drops. As we see, 10 drops that have a baseline of 12/12 were never used for their stat - but their effect - ex: Deathwing and the other Deathwing. And even with the effect, these cards does not see play often enough. Mostly just because playing a high-cost minions comes with great risk, as it can get removed by a much cheaper spell or minions cost your whole turn, never making it to turn 10, it being a dead card and clogging up your hand. Even with the increasing support for huge minions, I think that unless a 10 drop without immediate impact will either need a game-changing stat line to be played.
And personally, I think a 15/15 statline seem reasonable. I hope that a card similar to this will be printed for a future expansion. Because at the moment, huge minions will only see play for big immediate effect - single target removal are a lot less valuable if it cost any more than 4 mana and some classes don't have the option for cheap removal. You could argue that Druid will be able to abuse large vanilla minion by innervating them out or cheating them out with some new card - but removal are still a huge risk for large minions such as this. And when you think about the power level of Midrange, Aggro and Jade decks - this is what Hyper-ramp druid need to compete in the meta when super impactful minions are not printed. And even then Midrange, Aggro and Jade will still be much more dominant than big minions decks.
I hope that a card similar to this will be printed for a future expansion. Because at the moment, huge minions will only see play for big immediate effect - so a lot of single target removal are a lot less valuable if it cost any more than 4 mana and some classes don't have the option for cheap or hard removal. So what a 15/15 or 20/20 vanilla minion would do is increase the viability of more interactiveness.
You could argue that Druid will be able to abuse large vanilla minion by innervating them out or cheating them out with some new card - but removal are still a huge risk for large minions such as this. And when you think about the power level of Midrange, Aggro and Jade decks - this is what Hyper-ramp druid need to compete in the meta when super impactful minions are not printed. And even then Midrange, Aggro and Jade will still be much more dominant than big minions decks that rely on large statline.
10-drops that do nothing aren't played. 10-drops being played isn't about the stats, it's about what other thing they can do. Ysera, for example, would see literally no play if not for the effect (yes I know, not a 10-drop, but still).
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Even a 30/30 vanilla 10 drop still wouldn't see play, unless you could guarantee it to stick or charge somehow. Super large minions either get removed or they win you the game, so the statline isn't that important.
ask yourself would you play a 10-mana 30/30? I would say yes, on the off chance it just wins the game (you'd probably have a few other hexable targets to take the bullet). Certainly in wild a rogue would use it with Thaurissan and conceal, which works more often than not.
So I agree there is a value when they would be played. I don't know any better than anyone else when that is however
Blizzard needs to realize that unless you're a class with cheats (like Mage and Ice Block) you're not going to play anything over 8 mana unless it has an immediate board effect. That's why Ragnaros was such a great card, he's a big guy that probably instantly trades for one enemy, and your opponent still has to spend resources to get rid of it. N'Zoth is popular because he can bring back taunts and fill up your empty board with high value minions. C'Thun is useful because he probably clears your opponent's board and is a big fat body. Same with OG Deathwing.
But in a game that even the developers say they want to be about making your plays and responding to opponent's minions, just playing a card that does nothing is worthless. Your 10 mana 50/50 will just be hex'd, polymorph'd, shadow word death'd, etc.
Power level is relative. The reason that a minion is considered vanilla it because it has an average stat line for it's mana cost. The vanilla minion becomes the baseline. If every minion became like Ragnaros, for example, the complaint would become, "Why doesn't Blizzard realized that you can't play these slow Ragnaros cards, when you can play Ragnaros+ that fires two fireballs and is way faster?"
Even if it was 100/100, "At the start of your turn, win the game" it probably wouldn't see play. It's a dead card up until turn 10, and completely passing a turn after turn 10 will usually lose you the game out right.
Even if it was 100/100, "At the start of your turn, win the game" it probably wouldn't see play. It's a dead card up until turn 10, and completely passing a turn after turn 10 will usually lose you the game out right.
This would absolutely see play. Even a 10 mana 30/30 see play.
It really needs an effect, like N'Zoth, to be viable in any competitive decks. Otherwise, it's usually not worth it to play a vanilla 10-cost unless you're in Arena or something unless it's VERY BIG (which would probably never happen).
It's debatable, but I think for any 10-drop vanilla minion to see play, it would have to be usable as a win condition, meaning it would probably need at least 30 attack. That way you could build a two-turn-kill deck around it. As it stands, the real reason why vanilla minions aren't played is because they don't offer support to any archetypes. Chillwind Yeti is a perfectly good card, but it doesn't stack jades, doesn't stack C'thun, isn't a dragon, isn't a deathrattle, isn't a combo piece, etc. There is very little incentive to run a vanilla minion over anything else.
I mean going to say that the minimum stat line for a vanilla 10 drop to be considered for standard constructed play would have be able to at least two shot the opponent through t least a minor heal from full health. 17/17 is a good place to start but I think it's closer to 20/20, at which point it will win the game in one swing most of the time that it doesn't get frogged.
In conclusion, idon't think you can make a vanilla minion that's big enough to see play without being insanely swingy be un-fun. So it will probably be in the next expansion :P
So... which vanilla minions DO se play? Until turn 3, mana-cost health+attack +1 +2 is actually good enough, Blackwing Technician. From turn 4, though cheats like Mountain Giant and insane peak value like Astral Communion and Barnes start appearing..
Even if it was 100/100, "At the start of your turn, win the game" it probably wouldn't see play. It's a dead card up until turn 10, and completely passing a turn after turn 10 will usually lose you the game out right.
A 100/100 would definitely see play. And with that effect, of course it would. You're assuming everybody always has either a hard removal spell or a board that will win the game for them from T10 on. Neither of those are true. There's plenty of ways to stall until T10 and to get everyone else to blow their hard removal. Priest only has two spells that kill that minion, shaman only has two, druid has none, pirate warrior has none. The OP is actually trying to have a reasonable discussion here. Making outrageous claims like that does nothing to forward the conversation. I would personally play a 15/15 vanilla in ramp druid and perhaps in some other heavy control variants like ancestral spirit shaman. Anything 20/20 and up would see play.
In the current meta? It would need to be dam big. Not a spelling error - I mean it needs to be as big as a dam.
I think if Ancient One (35/35) were a playable card it MIGHT see play just because of cheats like Thaurissan, the new Druid Python, and as a counter to Dirty Rat. If Blizzard had more stat-based spells (like Druid's Earthen Scales) that might change.
It's debatable, but I think for any 10-drop vanilla minion to see play, it would have to be usable as a win condition, meaning it would probably need at least 30 attack. That way you could build a two-turn-kill deck around it.
Ultrasaur will most likely see play in arena, as there will likely be times it is better than the other two choices being provided, but I also think it is more interesting than cards like Faceless Behemoth because its stats are not mirrored, which is a difference that could make Ultrasaur into a budget two-turn-kill if it survives on the board.
Priest: Ultrasaur (10 mana), next turn (Hozen Healer) (Divine Spirit) Inner Fire is 14 damage without Divine, 28 damage with one Divine, and 56 damage with two Divine (5 to 9 mana).
Not bad for what are mostly Common or Basic cards, though it requires reaching turn 10 and having Ultrasaur survive. That said, I can easily see this appearing in a Trolden video in the near future, arena or not.
I'd say a 20/20 for 10 is a reasonable vanilla card for constructed. Anything smaller than that is hard to justify since it doesn't have an immediate board impact. A 12/12 with taunt would probably be fine too, but that's not vanilla.
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(Note: This post does not put Arena into consideration)
Train of Thoughts
After Megasaur's inclusion into Un'goro, I started thinking about filler cards. And more specifically about 10 drops. As we see, 10 drops that have a baseline of 12/12 were never used for their stat - but their effect - ex: Deathwing and the other Deathwing. And even with the effect, these cards does not see play often enough. Mostly just because playing a high-cost minions comes with great risk, as it can get removed by a much cheaper spell or minions cost your whole turn, never making it to turn 10, it being a dead card and clogging up your hand. Even with the increasing support for huge minions, I think that unless a 10 drop without immediate impact will either need a game-changing stat line to be played.
And personally, I think a 15/15 statline seem reasonable. I hope that a card similar to this will be printed for a future expansion. Because at the moment, huge minions will only see play for big immediate effect - single target removal are a lot less valuable if it cost any more than 4 mana and some classes don't have the option for cheap removal. You could argue that Druid will be able to abuse large vanilla minion by innervating them out or cheating them out with some new card - but removal are still a huge risk for large minions such as this. And when you think about the power level of Midrange, Aggro and Jade decks - this is what Hyper-ramp druid need to compete in the meta when super impactful minions are not printed. And even then Midrange, Aggro and Jade will still be much more dominant than big minions decks.
I hope that a card similar to this will be printed for a future expansion. Because at the moment, huge minions will only see play for big immediate effect - so a lot of single target removal are a lot less valuable if it cost any more than 4 mana and some classes don't have the option for cheap or hard removal. So what a 15/15 or 20/20 vanilla minion would do is increase the viability of more interactiveness.
You could argue that Druid will be able to abuse large vanilla minion by innervating them out or cheating them out with some new card - but removal are still a huge risk for large minions such as this. And when you think about the power level of Midrange, Aggro and Jade decks - this is what Hyper-ramp druid need to compete in the meta when super impactful minions are not printed. And even then Midrange, Aggro and Jade will still be much more dominant than big minions decks that rely on large statline.
10-drops that do nothing aren't played. 10-drops being played isn't about the stats, it's about what other thing they can do. Ysera, for example, would see literally no play if not for the effect (yes I know, not a 10-drop, but still).
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Enter. It's a beautiful key. But for a vanilla 10-drop to see play, I'd imagine it'd need to be quite huge. Like 20/20.
ask yourself would you play a 10-mana 30/30? I would say yes, on the off chance it just wins the game (you'd probably have a few other hexable targets to take the bullet). Certainly in wild a rogue would use it with Thaurissan and conceal, which works more often than not.
So I agree there is a value when they would be played. I don't know any better than anyone else when that is however
Edit: or just use prep of course as noted above
Blizzard needs to realize that unless you're a class with cheats (like Mage and Ice Block) you're not going to play anything over 8 mana unless it has an immediate board effect. That's why Ragnaros was such a great card, he's a big guy that probably instantly trades for one enemy, and your opponent still has to spend resources to get rid of it. N'Zoth is popular because he can bring back taunts and fill up your empty board with high value minions. C'Thun is useful because he probably clears your opponent's board and is a big fat body. Same with OG Deathwing.
But in a game that even the developers say they want to be about making your plays and responding to opponent's minions, just playing a card that does nothing is worthless. Your 10 mana 50/50 will just be hex'd, polymorph'd, shadow word death'd, etc.
Power level is relative. The reason that a minion is considered vanilla it because it has an average stat line for it's mana cost. The vanilla minion becomes the baseline. If every minion became like Ragnaros, for example, the complaint would become, "Why doesn't Blizzard realized that you can't play these slow Ragnaros cards, when you can play Ragnaros+ that fires two fireballs and is way faster?"
Even if it was 100/100, "At the start of your turn, win the game" it probably wouldn't see play. It's a dead card up until turn 10, and completely passing a turn after turn 10 will usually lose you the game out right.
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12/18 feels about right for controllish decks to start to compete with the likes of Ysera.
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It really needs an effect, like N'Zoth, to be viable in any competitive decks. Otherwise, it's usually not worth it to play a vanilla 10-cost unless you're in Arena or something unless it's VERY BIG (which would probably never happen).
It's debatable, but I think for any 10-drop vanilla minion to see play, it would have to be usable as a win condition, meaning it would probably need at least 30 attack. That way you could build a two-turn-kill deck around it. As it stands, the real reason why vanilla minions aren't played is because they don't offer support to any archetypes. Chillwind Yeti is a perfectly good card, but it doesn't stack jades, doesn't stack C'thun, isn't a dragon, isn't a deathrattle, isn't a combo piece, etc. There is very little incentive to run a vanilla minion over anything else.
True, plus there's always power creep...so a lot of vanilla minions end up being useless in the long run.
I mean going to say that the minimum stat line for a vanilla 10 drop to be considered for standard constructed play would have be able to at least two shot the opponent through t least a minor heal from full health. 17/17 is a good place to start but I think it's closer to 20/20, at which point it will win the game in one swing most of the time that it doesn't get frogged.
In conclusion, idon't think you can make a vanilla minion that's big enough to see play without being insanely swingy be un-fun. So it will probably be in the next expansion :P
So... which vanilla minions DO se play? Until turn 3, mana-cost health+attack +1 +2 is actually good enough, Blackwing Technician. From turn 4, though cheats like Mountain Giant and insane peak value like Astral Communion and Barnes start appearing..
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In the current meta? It would need to be dam big. Not a spelling error - I mean it needs to be as big as a dam.
I think if Ancient One (35/35) were a playable card it MIGHT see play just because of cheats like Thaurissan, the new Druid Python, and as a counter to Dirty Rat. If Blizzard had more stat-based spells (like Druid's Earthen Scales) that might change.
Not bad for what are mostly Common or Basic cards, though it requires reaching turn 10 and having Ultrasaur survive. That said, I can easily see this appearing in a Trolden video in the near future, arena or not.
15/15 maybe.
I'd say a 20/20 for 10 is a reasonable vanilla card for constructed. Anything smaller than that is hard to justify since it doesn't have an immediate board impact. A 12/12 with taunt would probably be fine too, but that's not vanilla.