Hearthpwn

If the design of the hunter hero power was: "deal 1 damage, plus 1 damage with every use" I'm pretty sure we'd all be moaning about how busted it is. With Bran and Aya and Jade idol, Auctioneer and Innervate the jade druid deck is fundamentally worse than that. I have no faith in Blizzard to nerf it, they knew what they were doing introducing it - they wanted to reduce cards like ysera and all the other big drops to the scrap heap completely, probably to force us all to buy new cards. But the mechanic is fucking stupid I can't believe it ever made it through testing. Kids designing their own card games at school wouldn't be stupid enough to include something like it.

Quote from Tze >>

Quote from FortyDust >>

At this point, I want them to nerf it -- not because of its power level, but because I'm so sick of all the Jade.

Spreading one powerful, monotonous mechanic across three classes was NOT a stroke of genius.

 This I think is a lot more reasonable of an argument for adjustments than "omg but mah fatigue decks are dead now" or "1 mana 10/10s unbalanced"... though I do think Un'Goro should fix a lot of those issues. Like in general as much as I liked the stuff in MSoG I'm also going to be happy to move on to a new meta with different decks in it, and the rotation essentially guarantees that for most of the decks in the meta right now. Even being someone who doesn't feel like it was unbalanced design, I do agree with people who are arguing it was a mistake to design everything to be so homogeneous.

Pirate Warrior looks like it's going to be hated out of the meta pretty easily, and Jade Druid is bad against anything with a proactive gameplan... so those don't concern me much. Jade Shaman is a different story and harder to guess at, since it still seems competitive with Elemental decks. Jade Rogue is probably just never going to take off, and I don't think anyone has seen enough of it on ladder to be tired of it if it did. I'm fine with Jade surviving rotation, but definitely hopeful it becomes niche like C'Thun. Same thing with Kazakus, I'd be happy if people played it but it wasn't 1/3 of my matchups.

Wait for next expansion and rotation to decide nerfs.

Fatigue is not the only archetype killed by idol, any control / slow / creative / fun deck is. Yes for sure, im a bit exaggerating here , but c'mon, it's not only disgusting to play against, it's absolutely unfun to play with, really...

Honestly guys, just think about quests. When you'll unleash your quest reward, Druid will already be shitting out his first two digits golems and he'd have a little few more waiting around the corner.

54% wanting to maintain this crap is kind of depressing, but it's actually very low. Kepping hope.

Jade Idol is so unfun I regret I pressed play every time a brainless druid show up. Shall i give him the win by quitting right of or give him the burning rope every turn? HS is full of hard decisions.

Quote from MistaMoh >>

Fatigue is not the only archetype killed by idol, any control / slow / creative / fun deck is. Yes for sure, im a bit exaggerating here , but c'mon, it's not only disgusting to play against, it's absolutely unfun to play with, really...

Honestly guys, just think about quests. When you'll unleash your quest reward, Druid will already be shitting out his first two digits golems and he'd have a little few more waiting around the corner.

54% wanting to maintain this crap is kind of depressing, but it's actually very low. Kepping hope.

 

Quote from sampe >>

Quote from dark4tr3ss >>

Quote from sampe >>

I don't know where people get this "jade idol is the culprit of agressive meta" thing? Miracle rogue has way higher winrate across the board if we remove pirate warrior from the meta. So could I say that miracle rogue is the culprit of the aggressive meta? No, the culprit of the agressive meta is pirate warrior's strong power level (and also aggro shaman's). There is no real "counter" to this deck. Even if you make a deck and tech it fully against pirate warrior, you still can't get awesome winrate against it (well you can get pretty good but you lose every other matchup in ladder).

Jade druid is just a deck that is really strong against all slow decks but gets cucked by most other midrange decks and all aggro decks. While it might not feel fair to lose to it with your fatigue warrior, I think the more appropriate resolve to this would be giving warrior more aggressive late game/ mid game tools to finish the game (playing bunch of 1 or 2 attack minions doesn't really threathen). Or then just play more tempo oriented warrior list like dragon warrior with later curve if you really want to play your big guys (or whatever will be the go-to after xpac).

And yeah the infinite jade idol is irrelevant against anything else than control warrior (You would probly win even vs reno mage by just summoning every jade from your deck). And btw jade blossom is stronger card than jade idol.

And if you want to play meme decks like mill rogue, why don't you just concede every game against druid instantly? You aren't probly trying to get ranks anyways if you play so sub optimal decks + those decks have other as strong counters (looking at you aggro decks!)

 Your defense for why Jade Druid is so toxic to control decks is just to "play another deck". How is that healthy for the game? Do you actually enjoy the net-deck meta right now? It's just copy-paste for the winratez, and that's supposed to be an entertaining experience?

Jade Druid neutered an entire archetype, which hasn't been done in the history of Hearthstone to this point. It is why the meta is stagnant and uninteresting and super one-sided, because if Jade Druid did not exist, control decks would have room to breathe and stomp all over Pirate Warrior like they used to. You can't just argue that, "Oh, Jade Druid is weak to aggro, which just so happens that that is what the meta is". The meta is what it is because that is the only thing capable of beating Jade Druid.

Please don't say "control decks" when you mean control warrior. Control warrior is the only control deck that has good matchup vs pirate warrior (only slightly favored though). Reno mage has bad match up vs pirate warrior, reno lock is about 50-50 and a bit reno lock favored if he goes full defensive list.

And reno lock has ok matcuhp vs jade druid (about 50-50 with combo). Also you can make reno mage to be pretty ok (about 45-55) vs jade druid with heavy cycle and solia pyroblast combo. Those are the other control decks that are played.

I said in my post that ctrl warrior needs stronger pressure minions or stronger(and faster) late wincondition. Most people and blizzard developers don't really want this fatigue control warrior be a thing and wouldn't it be better to fix control warrior wincontion instead of nerfing a fine and balanced deck (jade druid)? Control warrior loses to every single other control deck currently. It has almost jsut as bad matchup vs reno mage and reno lock than jade druid. Even if there weren't jade druid, ctrl warrior would be in almost just bad spot.

And also I repeat. Jade druid's best counter is not an aggro deck. It is miracle rogue. Aggro meta doesn't have any more to do with jade druid than, lets say, miracle rogue.

My point of the previous post wasn't about "play other deck", I explained why there is no "jade druid conspiracy" and there are better than more elegnat ways to solve ctrl warrior's problem than nerfing one deck which would not actually help ctrl warrior at all. You just picked up one clause out of my text and out of context and half of your comment was about that??? Cmon dude. So i repeate: Jade druid is not toxic vs control decks, only against control warrior and other decks that want to bring opponent to fatigue. I didn't at any point say to play other deck. I just suggested another angle if you want to play slow warrior deck against jade druid. Just play control warrior if you want? Why would i care and say other people to play another deck??? I don't even care about jade druid since its not really interesting deck for me but it is just not a problem at all currently...

Quote from sampe >>

Quote from dark4tr3ss >>

Quote from sampe >>

I don't know where people get this "jade idol is the culprit of agressive meta" thing? Miracle rogue has way higher winrate across the board if we remove pirate warrior from the meta. So could I say that miracle rogue is the culprit of the aggressive meta? No, the culprit of the agressive meta is pirate warrior's strong power level (and also aggro shaman's). There is no real "counter" to this deck. Even if you make a deck and tech it fully against pirate warrior, you still can't get awesome winrate against it (well you can get pretty good but you lose every other matchup in ladder).

Jade druid is just a deck that is really strong against all slow decks but gets cucked by most other midrange decks and all aggro decks. While it might not feel fair to lose to it with your fatigue warrior, I think the more appropriate resolve to this would be giving warrior more aggressive late game/ mid game tools to finish the game (playing bunch of 1 or 2 attack minions doesn't really threathen). Or then just play more tempo oriented warrior list like dragon warrior with later curve if you really want to play your big guys (or whatever will be the go-to after xpac).

And yeah the infinite jade idol is irrelevant against anything else than control warrior (You would probly win even vs reno mage by just summoning every jade from your deck). And btw jade blossom is stronger card than jade idol.

And if you want to play meme decks like mill rogue, why don't you just concede every game against druid instantly? You aren't probly trying to get ranks anyways if you play so sub optimal decks + those decks have other as strong counters (looking at you aggro decks!)

 Your defense for why Jade Druid is so toxic to control decks is just to "play another deck". How is that healthy for the game? Do you actually enjoy the net-deck meta right now? It's just copy-paste for the winratez, and that's supposed to be an entertaining experience?

Jade Druid neutered an entire archetype, which hasn't been done in the history of Hearthstone to this point. It is why the meta is stagnant and uninteresting and super one-sided, because if Jade Druid did not exist, control decks would have room to breathe and stomp all over Pirate Warrior like they used to. You can't just argue that, "Oh, Jade Druid is weak to aggro, which just so happens that that is what the meta is". The meta is what it is because that is the only thing capable of beating Jade Druid.

Please don't say "control decks" when you mean control warrior. Control warrior is the only control deck that has good matchup vs pirate warrior (only slightly favored though). Reno mage has bad match up vs pirate warrior, reno lock is about 50-50 and a bit reno lock favored if he goes full defensive list.

And reno lock has ok matcuhp vs jade druid (about 50-50 with combo). Also you can make reno mage to be pretty ok (about 45-55) vs jade druid with heavy cycle and solia pyroblast combo. Those are the other control decks that are played.

I said in my post that ctrl warrior needs stronger pressure minions or stronger(and faster) late wincondition. Most people and blizzard developers don't really want this fatigue control warrior be a thing and wouldn't it be better to fix control warrior wincontion instead of nerfing a fine and balanced deck (jade druid)? Control warrior loses to every single other control deck currently. It has almost jsut as bad matchup vs reno mage and reno lock than jade druid. Even if there weren't jade druid, ctrl warrior would be in almost just bad spot.

And also I repeat. Jade druid's best counter is not an aggro deck. It is miracle rogue. Aggro meta doesn't have any more to do with jade druid than, lets say, miracle rogue.

My point of the previous post wasn't about "play other deck", I explained why there is no "jade druid conspiracy" and there are better than more elegnat ways to solve ctrl warrior's problem than nerfing one deck which would not actually help ctrl warrior at all. You just picked up one clause out of my text and out of context and half of your comment was about that??? Cmon dude. So i repeate: Jade druid is not toxic vs control decks, only against control warrior and other decks that want to bring opponent to fatigue. I didn't at any point say to play other deck. I just suggested another angle if you want to play slow warrior deck against jade druid. Just play control warrior if you want? Why would i care and say other people to play another deck??? I don't even care about jade druid since its not really interesting deck for me but it is just not a problem at all currently...

Quote from sampe >>

Quote from dark4tr3ss >>

Quote from sampe >>

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Quote from sampe >>

I don't know where people get this "jade idol is the culprit of agressive meta" thing? Miracle rogue has way higher winrate across the board if we remove pirate warrior from the meta. So could I say that miracle rogue is the culprit of the aggressive meta? No, the culprit of the agressive meta is pirate warrior's strong power level (and also aggro shaman's). There is no real "counter" to this deck. Even if you make a deck and tech it fully against pirate warrior, you still can't get awesome winrate against it (well you can get pretty good but you lose every other matchup in ladder).

Jade druid is just a deck that is really strong against all slow decks but gets cucked by most other midrange decks and all aggro decks. While it might not feel fair to lose to it with your fatigue warrior, I think the more appropriate resolve to this would be giving warrior more aggressive late game/ mid game tools to finish the game (playing bunch of 1 or 2 attack minions doesn't really threathen). Or then just play more tempo oriented warrior list like dragon warrior with later curve if you really want to play your big guys (or whatever will be the go-to after xpac).

And yeah the infinite jade idol is irrelevant against anything else than control warrior (You would probly win even vs reno mage by just summoning every jade from your deck). And btw jade blossom is stronger card than jade idol.

And if you want to play meme decks like mill rogue, why don't you just concede every game against druid instantly? You aren't probly trying to get ranks anyways if you play so sub optimal decks + those decks have other as strong counters (looking at you aggro decks!)

 Your defense for why Jade Druid is so toxic to control decks is just to "play another deck". How is that healthy for the game? Do you actually enjoy the net-deck meta right now? It's just copy-paste for the winratez, and that's supposed to be an entertaining experience?

Jade Druid neutered an entire archetype, which hasn't been done in the history of Hearthstone to this point. It is why the meta is stagnant and uninteresting and super one-sided, because if Jade Druid did not exist, control decks would have room to breathe and stomp all over Pirate Warrior like they used to. You can't just argue that, "Oh, Jade Druid is weak to aggro, which just so happens that that is what the meta is". The meta is what it is because that is the only thing capable of beating Jade Druid.

Please don't say "control decks" when you mean control warrior. Control warrior is the only control deck that has good matchup vs pirate warrior (only slightly favored though). Reno mage has bad match up vs pirate warrior, reno lock is about 50-50 and a bit reno lock favored if he goes full defensive list.

And reno lock has ok matcuhp vs jade druid (about 50-50 with combo). Also you can make reno mage to be pretty ok (about 45-55) vs jade druid with heavy cycle and solia pyroblast combo. Those are the other control decks that are played.

I said in my post that ctrl warrior needs stronger pressure minions or stronger(and faster) late wincondition. Most people and blizzard developers don't really want this fatigue control warrior be a thing and wouldn't it be better to fix control warrior wincontion instead of nerfing a fine and balanced deck (jade druid)? Control warrior loses to every single other control deck currently. It has almost jsut as bad matchup vs reno mage and reno lock than jade druid. Even if there weren't jade druid, ctrl warrior would be in almost just bad spot.

And also I repeat. Jade druid's best counter is not an aggro deck. It is miracle rogue. Aggro meta doesn't have any more to do with jade druid than, lets say, miracle rogue.

My point of the previous post wasn't about "play other deck", I explained why there is no "jade druid conspiracy" and there are better than more elegnat ways to solve ctrl warrior's problem than nerfing one deck which would not actually help ctrl warrior at all. You just picked up one clause out of my text and out of context and half of your comment was about that??? Cmon dude. So i repeate: Jade druid is not toxic vs control decks, only against control warrior and other decks that want to bring opponent to fatigue. I didn't at any point say to play other deck. I just suggested another angle if you want to play slow warrior deck against jade druid. Just play control warrior if you want? Why would i care and say other people to play another deck??? I don't even care about jade druid since its not really interesting deck for me but it is just not a problem at all currently...

 In fact, I didn't mean "just" Control Warrior. That is just a specific example as to why Pirate Warrior is so dominant, because its main counter is non-existent anymore in the meta. All control decks without a combo (which combos aren't even that fun, mind you, it's just "have I drawn into it and have Thaurissan in hand?") are completely gutted by the infinite snowballing of Jade Druid. It puts a ceiling on how slow a deck can be. Not every Control Warrior is fatigue, in fact, most C'Thun Warriors as an example never went to fatigue. Fatigue rarely happens outside of very slow control v control, and since mill is a concept, I don't see how "fatigue" as a win condition is so bad anyway. It's good to have more ways to build a deck and have different varied win conditions. Jade Druid just completely eliminates two: late-game value and fatigue. That's not healthy for the game at all, and I am baffled by how you would ever think shaving strategic diversity off of a card game would be good for it.

Say, for example, I'd like to make a deck at the moment. I can either go for fun or competitive. Before, fun decks could also be competitive, granted you were skilled at deckbuilding and understood the meta enough to tech for it. Now, it's "I either can play aggro, midrange, combo, or Jade Druid". That's dumb, uninteresting, and just plain cancerous to play against on ladder. And you can't even escape it by playing Casual, it's just the same decks without a ranking in the top-left corner. The meta isn't fun right now, and while Jade Druid may not be completely responsible, denying Jade Druid didn't kill control is like arguing the world is flat.

Control warrior is NOT a counter to pirate warrior, it is just a good matchup. "All conrol decks"??? Can you tell me what are those all control decks? There was before xpac only control warrior and reno lock to a lesser extend (wasnt really strong enough). And before that we had in the past control priest which hasn't been a thing for a long time and jade has nothing to do with it. Currently we have control decks more in meta than we have ever had.

Now, it's "I either can play aggro, midrange, combo, or Jade Druid". What does that mean? You left control on purpose from there and listed every other deck type there is??????? Isn't that good thing that people can play whatever decktype they want? There are a lot of control decks in meta atm, don't try to twist it. So don't give that bullshit "jade killed control" same as "world is flat". Since that argument is invalid after you meet the first control deck in ladder.

Before and before was better... We are only 2 weeks from getting next xpac. The meta has always became stale at this point. There is nothing new in that. Im not arguing about meta being boring or whatever since thats purely personal. I just pointed out in my first message that the "jade druid is culprit of the aggro meta" is bullshit and im glad that you atleast agreed with me that on some level in the end of your post.

 

I would like to ask all those people saying control decks were killed to try this deck I made. It's a deck that I've been playing with pretty casually over the season but usually turns out as a win against jade druids (which are actually fairly rare on leader),  and I think it fits the control archetype. I would also like to add, since I usually main Druid myself (only gold hero I have right now), that I don't think Jade Idol itself is a problem but rather its combo with Gadgetzan Auctioneer, and all combos with Gadgetzan are very oppressive (but I'm sure if it got rotated to wild people would be complaining that Rogue has no "good" deck to play). Is it annoying when a Jade Druid has perfect draws and gets an infinite card engine going? Hell yeah. But that's the thing, it needs perfect draws (and any deck looks super unfair when it draws exactly what it needs when it needs it) and when it does Gadgetzan is there to pump out an unstoppable force. The fact it shuffles cards into your deck doesn't really mean anything without card draw since it just means one big dude a turn that can easily be stopped with removal or taunt. But with card draw...

Also, an addendum to my comment on Control Priests and Control Shamans, here are other examples of control decks that have zero ability to gain footing in Jadestone:

1. Control Paladin, without Anyfin combo
2. Control Hunter, particularly N'Zoth variants or Yogg N Load that has existed in the past
3. Control Warlock or Handlock outside of Reno
4. Control Mage outside of Reno, which we saw in Old Gods to an extent
5. Control/Ramp Druid outside of Jade

Jade is like cthun, you turn off your brain and vomit your curve

i love hearthstone and can deal with ppl playing braindead decks but yeah if theres one card that needs nerf atm its jade idol

The reason that Jade Idol shouldn't be nerfed is that it doesn't meet any of the criteria for a card to be nerfed.

1.) Overpowered: Jade druid is barely tier 2, and Idol isn't even the best card in jade druid (that would be Fandral).

2.) Decreases deck diversity: Jade Idol isn't a neutral card, and isn't even played in every good druid deck. The argument that many would make here is that jade druid losing to aggro decks and beating control decks encourages people to play aggro instead of control, but that isn't even true! Pirate warrior is only slightly favored against druid, and renolock does fine against both.

3.) Limits design space: The cards that interact with Jade Idol already exist (Gadgetzan Auctioneer, other jade cards, Fandral Staghelm). Beyond making the golems way bigger, shuffling 30 cards into your deck every turn and developing minions while cycling Jade Idols, I can't imagine that any other interactions would be deemed so unfair by the game's designers that they wouldn't be printed. Also Jade Idol rotates out in only a year.

Quote from Timowil1 >>

Quote from Tze >>

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 with 10 jade golems, i don't mean 10 jade idols (as in 30 jade golems in their deck) but just a cap, there are decks that wouldn't change at all with this change but an exception for a few decks that might need the little help.

yes fatigue isn't a main deck but that doesn't mean that it has to become better either, i still think its in a fine spot i just needed to adjust to arcane giants to beat jade druids.

and paladin's infinite threat is a constant spam of 1/1 to compare that to 1 mana jade golems that increas by +1/1 is a bad comparison

Quote from BrokenCycle >>

Quote from Tze >>

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

 A proactive gameplan is usually not enough. Try playing wild midrange paladin (once the best deck in the meta) against standard jade shaman/ druid and you'll see what I mean. The only thing that actually does work is aggro. Any deck that plans to take the game past turn 7 doesn't really stand a chance. I thought they hit rock bottom with mysterious challenger but it turns out it is always possible to come up with something worse. 

Quote from Tze >>

Quote from BrokenCycle >>

Quote from Tze >>

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

 A proactive gameplan is usually not enough. Try playing wild midrange paladin (once the best deck in the meta) against standard jade shaman/ druid and you'll see what I mean. The only thing that actually does work is aggro. Any deck that plans to take the game past turn 7 doesn't really stand a chance. I thought they hit rock bottom with mysterious challenger but it turns out it is always possible to come up with something worse. 

 Midrange Paladin should do alright against Jade Druid, which is the deck this thread is trying to get a key card nerfed for. It's also the one where you really do only need a proactive gameplan to beat. As a person who's played a lot of Dragon Priest (Reno and non-Reno variants) this expansion, the matchup was generally only a loss if they managed to draw really well or I manage to draw exceptionally poorly; this has always been the case with Druid, you simply set up turns so they have to decide between removing or developing and slowly gain the advantage. So in this case I think you're grossly exaggerating how proactive you need to be to beat Jade Druid.

Jade Shaman is problematic for different reasons, but not because of long gameplans. They're a much more well-rounded deck overall, but it's similar to Secret Paladin in the sense that Mysterious Challenger isn't all that broken without the crazy cards Paladin had before. Jade Shaman without Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem is a big deal, and without Brann their Jade clock gets a lot worse. It's the only MSoG deck I'm worried will survive rotation and remain top-tier, but honestly it's considerably less attractive than Murlocs and Elementals at this point.

@Zkool; Agreed, I should stress that I'm really only a little worried Jade Shaman stays top tier because it really does lose a lot. It's more that even if it slowed down to a Control-ish build it still has so many solid tools it might still be too well-rounded. It has nothing to do with Jade though, it's just I'd rather we at least get something cool and new like Elementals if Shaman is still going to be a powerhouse class.

I personally don't think it should be nerfed, but I'd like to propose this as a possible "solution" that keeps both sides happy.  You still can cycle a lot of Jades for cheap, but not forever, and at a cost.

Quote from Old Card Text »

Choose One - Summon a Jade Golem; or Shuffle 3 copies of this card into your deck.

Quote from Proposed Nerf »

Choose One - Summon a jade Golem; or Shuffle 3 copies of this card into your deck that cost (1) more.

Your second three copies would cost 2 mana, third three copies 3 mana, etc.  You're eventually not just dropping Gadgetzan + Innervate and hoping to play 6 more Idols, because theoretically by that point they each cost 3+ mana. You fatigue eventually because you can't afford an 11-cost Jade Idol, so control decks have an end in sight.   

I don't think they need to increase mana or nerf jade idol the way it is.

All they need to do is make like a 7 mana 5/5 legendary that has Battlecry: Set your opponents Jade Counter to 3/3 or something like that so other control decks can actually have a chance.

IMO Jade Golems stats should be based on highest jade on board so if you constantly killing them - they wont grow that much :)

This will require some taunts and other tricks to protect golems :)