Yogg is exactly what his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position.
It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity.
Okay I watched the first 10, I don't have time to watch the rest.
Sometimes it turned the game around, sometimes it didn't, which is my experience is consistent with Yogg. I assume the players who put it in their deck considered it was worth the risk, even for a 10 mana card.
There were slightly more better outcomes than bad outcomes that's for sure. (12 v 8)
But even with some of the good outcomes, that wasn't always enough for the player to win the match. So in short, Yogg is a fun card which can be useful at the right time, but it can also be bad or not good enough for the player.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Entry for this week's Card Design Competition - Season 8.16:
Yogg-Saron was not the win condition for those decks. It was an all in card, did it pay off? Sure sometimes but not every time just like any all in. The decks are played that in a worst case scenarios you drop yogg hope for the best.
Again as said in every other yogg salt thread it's a 10 mana card if it didn't flip the table it wouldn't see any play at all. That's what you want from 10 mana, period.
So in conclusion. The cards fine didn't win every game it was played, made for a hell of a fun video and good time watching the series.
Yogg is exactly what his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position.
It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity.
There should not be so many "sometimes". You built your deck using cards with particular effects, so using them gives results that you deserve.
But now any "skillful guy" can pick Druid or Mage and have easy benefits not connected to anything but rng.
Yogg is exactly what his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position.
It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity.
There should not be so many "sometimes". You built your deck using cards with particular effects, so using them gives results that you deserve.
But now any "skillful guy" can pick Druid or Mage and have easy benefits not connected to anything but rng.
Okey, let's start with this then: please define 'skill'. Because I agree with Brian Kibler on this stance; in Hearthstone its about playing around likely or unlikely scenarios which also means that your definition is completely andq utterly bollocks because... do you actually have a definition or just throw around loose terminology because its the 'new shizzaz' on Hearthpwn?
Because so far your only definition entails 'Duh... I picked class... me good now'.
I think he's trying to say that because those two are the most prevalent cases of yogg decks but fails to mention they play a load of spells to get 0 mana 8/8s on the board and yogg is just a nice surprise if you're losing. Also those decks usually will try and burn you down before the need for yogg.
You can't defend Yogg. Only the people who plays him will defend him, it's just like people saying ''pre-nerf patron wasn't op'' - only the people who played it ever said that.
Also the card makes competitive E-sports look like a joke.
I watched it and during every single one of 'em I thought this:
"Isn't this what Deathwing used to do when you included him in control decks, and the reason why he was seen roughly 50/50 of all times when Taunt-druid was the name of the game in tournament-play?"
Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is a perfectly balanced card, bad rng but due to its mana cost and conditional activation serves the same function as Deathwing. Professional hearthstone players are as a general rule of thumb exceedingly whiny in their appearance... because folks associate Kripparian and Raynad as professional Hearthstone players.
Kripparian is a Hearthstone content producer but not commonly a 'professional' player (he's also an idiot but that's mostly due to the fact that he claims every card his opponent plays is a top-deck'd card... and this includes the times when someone keep such cards as Reno Jackson, Malygos, Gadgetzan Auctioneer in their opening hand as in... cards folks INTENTIONALLY keep in their opening hand because its a good idea; so Kripparian is an idiot sorry but that's not subjective, that's an objective thing).
Raynad is a whiny kid who doesn't understand math (if you don't believe me, go and look up his video on RNG, compare it to Extra Credits explaination of the "Delta of Randomness", take a math class if you still don't believe me... and its quite clear Raynad failed math in school) and complains about the fact that rng even exists in cardgames.
Sorry but no, Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is an unconditional Deathwing for spells which means that you need a drawback for the card. And that drawback is that it only works some of the time.
I would agree that 'Hearthstone can't be taken seriously because of a card that wins you games from behind and establishes dominance when ahead!' but... all of these Yoggs were played from behind and most of 'em didn't do anything to help win the situation. I agree that rng is not good for the competitive scene and I fundamentally believe that if there's even a chance to essentially become an immortal ... the game's flawed. Look to highground miss chance in games like DotA, SC:BW, WC3, etc. for reference.
However... you don't become an immortal because you played Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, nor are you an immortal even due to the highground miss chance considering... the games I listed have been considered some of the most competitively balanced games in the history of gaming! You don't become an immortal, because of how the game's made. And likewise what Kibler has said "Play around it"; don't overextend, you can see when a 'BIG' Yogg is coming or not, if you are playing an aggressive deck... put on more aggression. Failed to do so? Did you fail because your deck is built wrong (your fault), because you didn't draw the 'right' cards (welcome to cardgames) or because of a Yogg-Saron, Hope's End that a) hasn't been played yet or b) he was able to powerup with spells and then play on 10 mana?
The card's fine. If you want to debate me on this, bring me statistics of win-ratio for the card.
(Oh and btw, just because I need to state this as well: Firebat had the right idea that you could make a format in which you could ban certain cards which is a good thing for community tournaments, horrendous idea for official tournaments but good for those kind of community tournaments to exist as well. Other than that when Firebat was talking about the win ratio of Yogg-Saron, Hope's End in his video he neglected one thing: too few games are played by 'each player' to provide solid averages or statistics. To understand this better I suggest following Extra Credits and looking up their videos on competitive viability and tournament play. That as well as Brian Kibler.)
Deathwing can easily be played around.... which is why he isn't played anymore... dude you're full of it lol. Yogg has no counterplay whatsoever. N'Zoth has counterplay, C'thun has counterplay, Deathwing has counterplay, Yogg doesn't plain and simple and when it is played the user is usually losing anyways so there is literally 0 risk. A card that comes with no risk or negative effects (Deathwing also discards the user's entire hand which is a HUGE gaping difference) because it is usually played when there is no other answer or way to win for the user is a card that should not be in the game plain and simple. I don't understand how can type all of this out and not smell the bullshit. Just because it didn't consistently win games for people who were losing by a country mile doesn't mean it's balanced.
Yogg-Saron was not the win condition for those decks. It was an all in card, did it pay off? Sure sometimes but not every time just like any all in. The decks are played that in a worst case scenarios you drop yogg hope for the best.
Again as said in every other yogg salt thread it's a 10 mana card if it didn't flip the table it wouldn't see any play at all. That's what you want from 10 mana, period.
So in conclusion. The cards fine didn't win every game it was played, made for a hell of a fun video and good time watching the series.
How'd I do?
The biggest reason I don't like Yogg is for the specific reason that it ISN'T a win condition, just more of a prayer or hail mary that works more often than not and turns games around. I WILL NOT type this out for any of y'all ever again: THE CARD HAS NO COUNTERPLAY AT ALL.
Yogg is exactly what his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position.
It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity.
There should not be so many "sometimes". You built your deck using cards with particular effects, so using them gives results that you deserve.
But now any "skillful guy" can pick Druid or Mage and have easy benefits not connected to anything but rng.
Okey, let's start with this then: please define 'skill'. Because I agree with Brian Kibler on this stance; in Hearthstone its about playing around likely or unlikely scenarios which also means that your definition is completely andq utterly bollocks because... do you actually have a definition or just throw around loose terminology because its the 'new shizzaz' on Hearthpwn?
Because so far your only definition entails 'Duh... I picked class... me good now'.
I dont get your comment. If you have problems with "any skillful guy" change it to "any random guy". It is far from key word in the message. Sure one part of skill in card game is "about playing around likely or unlikely scenarios". Thats why I'm talking about building your deck with relyble cards and not "HOPING for Flamestrike and CotW". Also please stop making hidden insults. Its not showing you in better way) P.S. I like your quotation about Dogs. Its cute.
Yogg is exactly what his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position.
It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity.
An "OK" card? Dude I hope you're not serious. lmao.
Just like y'all thought Malchezaar was meta-defining y'all think a card that ACTUALLY IS meta-defining is just "OK". This forum is full of idiots who don't understand card games.
Go look at Meta-Snapshot, there are THREE Tier 1 decks that have Yogg in them with two of those being #1 and #3.
I watched it and during every single one of 'em I thought this:
"Isn't this what Deathwing used to do when you included him in control decks, and the reason why he was seen roughly 50/50 of all times when Taunt-druid was the name of the game in tournament-play?"
Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is a perfectly balanced card, bad rng but due to its mana cost and conditional activation serves the same function as Deathwing. Professional hearthstone players are as a general rule of thumb exceedingly whiny in their appearance... because folks associate Kripparian and Raynad as professional Hearthstone players.
Kripparian is a Hearthstone content producer but not commonly a 'professional' player (he's also an idiot but that's mostly due to the fact that he claims every card his opponent plays is a top-deck'd card... and this includes the times when someone keep such cards as Reno Jackson, Malygos, Gadgetzan Auctioneer in their opening hand as in... cards folks INTENTIONALLY keep in their opening hand because its a good idea; so Kripparian is an idiot sorry but that's not subjective, that's an objective thing).
Raynad is a whiny kid who doesn't understand math (if you don't believe me, go and look up his video on RNG, compare it to Extra Credits explaination of the "Delta of Randomness", take a math class if you still don't believe me... and its quite clear Raynad failed math in school) and complains about the fact that rng even exists in cardgames.
Sorry but no, Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is an unconditional Deathwing for spells which means that you need a drawback for the card. And that drawback is that it only works some of the time.
I would agree that 'Hearthstone can't be taken seriously because of a card that wins you games from behind and establishes dominance when ahead!' but... all of these Yoggs were played from behind and most of 'em didn't do anything to help win the situation. I agree that rng is not good for the competitive scene and I fundamentally believe that if there's even a chance to essentially become an immortal ... the game's flawed. Look to highground miss chance in games like DotA, SC:BW, WC3, etc. for reference.
However... you don't become an immortal because you played Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, nor are you an immortal even due to the highground miss chance considering... the games I listed have been considered some of the most competitively balanced games in the history of gaming! You don't become an immortal, because of how the game's made. And likewise what Kibler has said "Play around it"; don't overextend, you can see when a 'BIG' Yogg is coming or not, if you are playing an aggressive deck... put on more aggression. Failed to do so? Did you fail because your deck is built wrong (your fault), because you didn't draw the 'right' cards (welcome to cardgames) or because of a Yogg-Saron, Hope's End that a) hasn't been played yet or b) he was able to powerup with spells and then play on 10 mana?
The card's fine. If you want to debate me on this, bring me statistics of win-ratio for the card.
(Oh and btw, just because I need to state this as well: Firebat had the right idea that you could make a format in which you could ban certain cards which is a good thing for community tournaments, horrendous idea for official tournaments but good for those kind of community tournaments to exist as well. Other than that when Firebat was talking about the win ratio of Yogg-Saron, Hope's End in his video he neglected one thing: too few games are played by 'each player' to provide solid averages or statistics. To understand this better I suggest following Extra Credits and looking up their videos on competitive viability and tournament play. That as well as Brian Kibler.)
I stopped watching EXTRA CREDITS when they started to argue that Flame Juggler is a well designed card .
IT IS NOT . It is one of the worst designed cards in the whole game . In tempo match-ups if you play this on turn 2 and you kill something with it can be game winning . if you hit opposing face it can be game losing . It's a frustrating card to play and a frustrating card to play against .
A game should not be decided on turn 2 by a 50 50 chance .
Generally I try to stay away from this card is OP threads because I don't really think that most of the complaints are anything other than salty.
Yogg however is an issue. It's not that it's OP because it screws you just as often as it screws your opponent but rather because when you win with Yogg, it just takes away any feeling of out playing your opponent and replaces it with an 'oh well, I got lucky' feeling. Same when you lose to him... It takes away from people's skill in the game and that's why I think it's an issue and unhealthy for the competitive scene.
Imagine if the world champs were decided by Yogg. It's not good for the game - those interested in learning about Hearthstone will just see the game as a slot machine with no skill involved. Oh he won because he got lucky
All card games have an element of randomness to them. Some games you draw well and win and ther you draw bad and lose. That's part of the game and not an issue. Yogg adds an extreme level of randomness that's not healthy for the game. On ladder fine, but not in tournaments
So yeah, that's why I think it's a problem. It's not OP though, just unhealthy for the game as an e sport.
I think that standard should be the competitive scene.. yogg should be a fun cards which he is but when he becomes competitive it's a problem.. would banish him to wild that's where he belongs, used to defend him but as I see him in more and more decks I tend to believe he shouldn't be in standard.
Those aggro players being salty just because of Yogg xD
I actually like this card. Seems totally cool and funny. It is definitely a specials kind of effect an old god should be able to. Like N'Zoth bringing deathrattles back, C'Thun throwing a lot of arcane missiles and Y'Shaarj adding minions to the board (whitch is probably the weakest one but still very powerful as you will get outballed if you don't deal with him). I guess to make it better, spells should stop being able to casted to the face of either player. I would kinda like this as it would only affect the board in general but nothing else (of course healing effects and armor effects are fine but no fireballs to face, no pyroblasts or crackles or lava bursts or kill commands to the face). Then again it is definitely a card being enough balanced that you don't really die immediately.
Yogg is just too much RNG. I have no problem with a minion helping the losing player try to recover from a bad position. I love Reno for example; in exchange for certain compromises during deck design you can strongly boost your life total and hopefully buy some time to mount a recovery. Although obviously he can backfire or fizzle, far too often the play of every turn prior to the playing of Yogg just doesn't matter. He turns the board upside down, inside out, and changes the entire flow of the game. That's just overkill and way too much power for one minion, even a Legendary, to have such potential.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
Yogg is exactly what his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position.
It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity.
An "OK" card? Dude I hope you're not serious. lmao.
Just like y'all thought Malchezaar was meta-defining y'all think a card that ACTUALLY IS meta-defining is just "OK". This forum is full of idiots who don't understand card games.
Go look at Meta-Snapshot, there are THREE Tier 1 decks that have Yogg in them with two of those being #1 and #3.
I just looked at the meta snapshot and ALL SIX tier 1 decks have Azure Drake in them!!!!!!
WTF are we sitting here talking about Yogg for, Azure Drake is the meta defining card, why isn't this banned already!!!!!
I love it when someone calls other people idiots and then trips over their own shoelaces trying to use 'logic' that falls down at the first hurdle.
Just watch this:
(Click Here)
Yogg-Saron, our lord and savior, needs no defense. But He will defense us from the anti-rng infidels. Spread the words of Yogg!
Joke aside, this card makes competitive games look like a children game.
Rongchoi's heroic adventure decks
Yogg is exactly what his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position.
It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity.
Okay I watched the first 10, I don't have time to watch the rest.
Sometimes it turned the game around, sometimes it didn't, which is my experience is consistent with Yogg. I assume the players who put it in their deck considered it was worth the risk, even for a 10 mana card.
What is your point here?
The only cancer in Hearthstone is its community.
There were slightly more better outcomes than bad outcomes that's for sure. (12 v 8)
But even with some of the good outcomes, that wasn't always enough for the player to win the match. So in short, Yogg is a fun card which can be useful at the right time, but it can also be bad or not good enough for the player.
My Entry for this week's Card Design Competition - Season 8.16:
Ok let's see if I got this right. You want us to defend Yogg after that video. Let's see how I do.
First I'm going to leave this here.
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/28947-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-steam-mega-salty
Now to point out the obvious.
Yogg-Saron was not the win condition for those decks. It was an all in card, did it pay off? Sure sometimes but not every time just like any all in. The decks are played that in a worst case scenarios you drop yogg hope for the best.
Again as said in every other yogg salt thread it's a 10 mana card if it didn't flip the table it wouldn't see any play at all. That's what you want from 10 mana, period.
So in conclusion. The cards fine didn't win every game it was played, made for a hell of a fun video and good time watching the series.
How'd I do?
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity” ― Sun Tzu
My current disaster-piece
You built your deck using cards with particular effects, so using them gives results that you deserve.
But now any "skillful guy" can pick Druid or Mage and have easy benefits not connected to anything but rng.
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity” ― Sun Tzu
My current disaster-piece
You can't defend Yogg.
Only the people who plays him will defend him, it's just like people saying ''pre-nerf patron wasn't op'' - only the people who played it ever said that.
Also the card makes competitive E-sports look like a joke.
Sure one part of skill in card game is "about playing around likely or unlikely scenarios". Thats why I'm talking about building your deck with relyble cards and not "HOPING for Flamestrike and CotW".
Also please stop making hidden insults. Its not showing you in better way)
P.S. I like your quotation about Dogs. Its cute.
Yogg-Saron literally just replaces the concede button with a roulette machine.
Generally I try to stay away from this card is OP threads because I don't really think that most of the complaints are anything other than salty.
Yogg however is an issue. It's not that it's OP because it screws you just as often as it screws your opponent but rather because when you win with Yogg, it just takes away any feeling of out playing your opponent and replaces it with an 'oh well, I got lucky' feeling. Same when you lose to him... It takes away from people's skill in the game and that's why I think it's an issue and unhealthy for the competitive scene.
Imagine if the world champs were decided by Yogg. It's not good for the game - those interested in learning about Hearthstone will just see the game as a slot machine with no skill involved. Oh he won because he got lucky
All card games have an element of randomness to them. Some games you draw well and win and ther you draw bad and lose. That's part of the game and not an issue. Yogg adds an extreme level of randomness that's not healthy for the game. On ladder fine, but not in tournaments
So yeah, that's why I think it's a problem. It's not OP though, just unhealthy for the game as an e sport.
Missing lethal since June 2015.
I think that standard should be the competitive scene.. yogg should be a fun cards which he is but when he becomes competitive it's a problem.. would banish him to wild that's where he belongs, used to defend him but as I see him in more and more decks I tend to believe he shouldn't be in standard.
Those aggro players being salty just because of Yogg xD
I actually like this card. Seems totally cool and funny. It is definitely a specials kind of effect an old god should be able to. Like N'Zoth bringing deathrattles back, C'Thun throwing a lot of arcane missiles and Y'Shaarj adding minions to the board (whitch is probably the weakest one but still very powerful as you will get outballed if you don't deal with him). I guess to make it better, spells should stop being able to casted to the face of either player. I would kinda like this as it would only affect the board in general but nothing else (of course healing effects and armor effects are fine but no fireballs to face, no pyroblasts or crackles or lava bursts or kill commands to the face). Then again it is definitely a card being enough balanced that you don't really die immediately.
Just remember the good times!
Yogg is just too much RNG. I have no problem with a minion helping the losing player try to recover from a bad position. I love Reno for example; in exchange for certain compromises during deck design you can strongly boost your life total and hopefully buy some time to mount a recovery. Although obviously he can backfire or fizzle, far too often the play of every turn prior to the playing of Yogg just doesn't matter. He turns the board upside down, inside out, and changes the entire flow of the game. That's just overkill and way too much power for one minion, even a Legendary, to have such potential.
Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
The only cancer in Hearthstone is its community.