Ok, so I've been busy for the last two days and literally just saw the most recent set of changes, and just wanted to quickly talk about my opinion on it, because I've already seen a couple of threads and I just wanted to get a few things out of the way, including a common misconception that people seem to be having about the rogue change.
RIP Druid, look, I understand the Nourish change, going second as Druid and being able to do Coin+Wild Growth, Wild Growth, Nourish, and be at 8 mana on turn 4 was really busted and basically meant you could still recover despite the fact that you spent your first three turns doing next to nothing as Druid. However, the Wild Growth change is terrible, look, I know that being able to get to 5 mana on turn 3 is still quite powerful, but honestly, most 4-5 drops in this game are nowhere near as powerful as dropping an 8 drop of turn 4. If any change needed to be done to Wild Growth, it would be the form that occurs once you're at 10 mana. Excess Mana should've had a cost of some sort attached to it, since the power to draw a card for free at any time is just too powerful an effect. If they really wanted to change Wild Growth the way they did, they should have added some thing else, like getting rid of access to Excess Mana and instead adding the text of 'if you have 10 mana crystals, draw a card instead'. But since that didn't happen, I would seriously recommend going back on the Wild Growth change and making Excess Mana cost 1 mana instead, the effect is still felt later in the game without hurting the early game ramp of Druid.
With Level Up! no longer an odd costed card, Odd Paladin loses a little bit of their power, but Even Paladin gains that power in it's place. This will probably make both decks a little more even in terms of their power difference, but hurting Odd Paladin makes Odd Rogue and Even Shaman the top 2 aggro decks currently, as neither deck was touched by the changes made. However, Odd Pally is still good, and will probably be able to push top tier decks to their limits, they just will have a harder time surviving through multiple board wipes.
As someone who plays Shudderwock in Wild, the change to Saronite Chain Gang sucks, but it hurts Standard more than Wild, all it means for Wild is that we have to rely more on Doppelgangster and the cards that bounce and copy Shudderwock. As for replacements, I've been considering Bog Slosher to add to the bounce pool, but both Brewmasters work too, but if you feel confident in your copy/bounce power for your deck, Feral Spirit is probably the best card to go with, just to make sure you have defensive tools, even if it's just a couple of 2/3's, but hey, unless you get Prince K or Mistcaller down first, that's what Saronite is most of the time.
I've said it in other threads, so I'm not going to secretly weep for Kingsbane. The deck in Wild was becoming a problem, and the only reason I believe it wasn't hit harder was because the deck is still the top counter to Big Priest. But most of the outcry I have seen has been over the change to Leeching Poison, the one card that basically made Kingsbane consistently good against everything that wasn't hyper aggro. Look, as a control player, Leeching Poison was the card that made me Kingsbane as a card, but it was never the true problem card, most of the problem with Wild Kingsbane is Coldlight Oracle, the other staple of Millbane and the card that pisses off every control player, like I will still scoop to Coldlight Oracle when I'm fighting Rogue because I know I will end up seeing too many of those in a game and I just don't want to deal with that shit. Rogue is still the top class to deal with Big Priest and Kingsbane can still decimate Big Priest and Control decks will have a hard time due to the power of Coldlight Oracle, Sap, and Vanish. The change to Leeching Poison mean that Control decks now at least have a change since Kingsbane isn't healing the Rogue for 10+ on every attack.
Overall, the changes are good for Standard and as usual, Wild gets caught in the crossfire, but some of it isn't as bad as we make it out to be. Wild is always adapting, and this will be no different, however, Druid is fucking gone, no exceptions.
I love how control players complain about [current meta-deck] when control never has a chance of coming back into the meta due to the incredible amounts of infinite value cards like Death Knights.
I love how control players complain about [current meta-deck] when control never has a chance of coming back into the meta due to the incredible amounts of infinite value cards like Death Knights.
I still have no idea where people get this concept that infinite value = death to control decks. Are we back in the old tank-up Control Warrior metas where control solely relies on fatiguing your opponent to death by just removing stuff? Control decks can still win against infinite value when they actually have a finisher, a high tempo swing turn, or even an OTK alternate win condition.
For example, I've had many games on wild ladder against [Insert random hunter with Rexxar here] vs my Reno Mage, a match-up that according to some people is an "unwinnable match-up" due to Build-a-beast. And yet Rexxar isn't truly an infinite value card. Why? It is due to fatigue and chip damage being a thing. Unless I get really unlucky with my draws and they get really lucky with constant charging zombeasts I almost always win against Rexxar and just win out-tempoing the board combined with fatigue and chip damage (Not outvaluing the hero power, but out tempoing the board so that they never get more than 1-2 big things on board). Zombeasts have nothing on 4-6 10 mana Kazakus potions. This isn't just a few rare games for me, but is consistent at least for my laddering experience across the board.
Control lock is another deck that can beat other infinite value decks when it also runs a Mecha'Thun package. Who cares about "infinite value" when value isn't going to be what decides the game?
Now for the perception that druid is dead. I disagree OP. It is much weaker to aggro decks, but against slow decks it isn't that crippling if a combo druid deck ramps a little more slowly. In the end the control opponent probably still is not outputting enough damage to kill the druid before they combo them down.
I love how control players complain about [current meta-deck] when control never has a chance of coming back into the meta due to the incredible amounts of infinite value cards like Death Knights.
"Playing a control deck means playing the opposite game of an aggro deck. Where an aggro deck plays one mana-efficient threat after another for the fastest victory, a control deck is looking to answer an opponent's threats and make the game go long. In that long game, the control deck uses card-drawing spells to out-resource an opponent, clearing the way to play a large, game-ending threat that the opponent can't deal with." (Murphy.Q, 2017) (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/how-build/how-build-control-2017-01-31)
You self-entitled "pure" control players seem tofrequently forget that one tiny yet humungously important bolded part, DKs are one of those game-ending threats control can run.
I don't understand why people think the nourish nerf is better than the wild growth one.
Wild growth is druid's Keleseth. If they have that card in their opening hand the odds of them winning are so much higher than when they do not have it, it's ridiculous
I love how control players complain about [current meta-deck] when control never has a chance of coming back into the meta due to the incredible amounts of infinite value cards like Death Knights.
For example, I've had many games on wild ladder against [Insert random hunter with Rexxar here] vs my Reno Mage, a match-up that according to some people is an "unwinnable match-up" due to Build-a-beast. And yet Rexxar isn't truly an infinite value card. Why? It is due to fatigue and chip damage being a thing. Unless I get really unlucky with my draws and they get really lucky with constant charging zombeasts I almost always win against Rexxar and just win out-tempoing the board combined with fatigue and chip damage (Not outvaluing the hero power, but out tempoing the board so that they never get more than 1-2 big things on board). Zombeasts have nothing on 4-6 10 mana Kazakus potions. This isn't just a few rare games for me, but is consistent at least for my laddering experience across the board.
You do realize that Frost Lich Jaina, core part of Reno Mage, is another one of these ''infinite value'' cards, right? Right? Also the argument that Rexxar is somehow not infinite value card, because you can still die after playing it - is one of the stupidest ideas i ve ever heard.
I love how control players complain about [current meta-deck] when control never has a chance of coming back into the meta due to the incredible amounts of infinite value cards like Death Knights.
For example, I've had many games on wild ladder against [Insert random hunter with Rexxar here] vs my Reno Mage, a match-up that according to some people is an "unwinnable match-up" due to Build-a-beast. And yet Rexxar isn't truly an infinite value card. Why? It is due to fatigue and chip damage being a thing. Unless I get really unlucky with my draws and they get really lucky with constant charging zombeasts I almost always win against Rexxar and just win out-tempoing the board combined with fatigue and chip damage (Not outvaluing the hero power, but out tempoing the board so that they never get more than 1-2 big things on board). Zombeasts have nothing on 4-6 10 mana Kazakus potions. This isn't just a few rare games for me, but is consistent at least for my laddering experience across the board.
You do realize that Frost Lich Jaina, core part of Reno Mage, is another one of these ''infinite value'' cards, right? Right? Also the argument that Rexxar is somehow not infinite value card, because you can still die after playing it - is one of the stupidest ideas i ve ever heard.
^Ahhh. This is perfect lesson that says: Study and learn your points before rushing into something. DK Jaina is not an infinite value card and Lyra certainly isnt stupid. Infinite value card means that without any other combination or support, the card or abbility with given effect can go infinite. Jainas Hero Power especially in fatique in Control is nothing more than a 1 dmg ping in most cases. That certainly isnt infinite value. Heck, if that is infinite value, then why don't we count some of the basic heropowrs as well? For example the Paladin one?
Lyra has actually pretty good points in general so I would thinks twice before going into argument against him ;)
^Ahhh. This is perfect lesson that says: Study and learn your points before rushing into something. DK Jaina is not an infinite value card and Lyra certainly isnt stupid. Infinite value card means that without any other combination or support, the card or abbility with given effect can go infinite. Jainas Hero Power especially in fatique in Control is nothing more than a 1 dmg ping in most cases. That certainly isnt infinite value. Heck, if that is infinite value, then why don't we count some of the basic heropowrs as well? For example the Paladin one?
Lyra has actually pretty good points in general so I would thinks twice before going into argument against him ;)
^Ahhh. This is perfect lesson that says: Study and learn message you are going to reply, before rushing into something. It also helps to think about your responce a bit, but nevermind that. Ok, lets talk.
If you would've given a closer look to my message, you would notice that its says ''infinite value'' reffering to Jaina's power, and not infinite value. That reads: yes, technically that value isnt infinite-infinite, BUT, as long as your opponent plays minions and you have means to interact with them, you will have Water Elementals with lifesteal. Pseudo-infinite, you might say. Thats not Siphon Life (arguably), nor Build-A-Beast level of value, sure. But that also most certainly is not a Chillwind Yeti, a perfect one-time 4 mana 4/5 finite tempo level of value.
Also, yes you are right, technically, ALL of Hero Powers are infinite value generators, when you think about it. Even Fireblast is an infinite 1 damage a turn value generator, technically. Are they good infinite value generators tho? Not really. Are they good enough to be win conditions of a deck? Certainly not.
Next, if we pay attention to the part of his/her message I have problems with, they describing how you can still outvalue and outtempo Build-A-Beast with 4-6 10 mana Kazakus potions. I'm sure you can build your Reno deck in a way, so you could use and abuse the shit out of Kazakus and his potions. (Although now i'm trully curious to look at this deck, like is it worth to run multiple bouncers just for these rare value-intensive matchups? Are these bounce effects good enough vs aggro decks? I personally prefer just to use Sideshow Spelleater for these cases, usually works fine for me.) Therefore, they conclude, Build-A-Beast is NOT an infinite value generator.
The thing is, does the fact that you can still outplay your opponent who possesses infinite value generator, makes this exact value generator somehow non-infinite? Are you just supposed to lose against it if you cant SMOrc them? If i recall correctly, there was a nerf recently to certain infinite value generators, just because they had too little counterplay once they got rolling. You know, unfair and unfun to play against stuff. Kingsbane? Shudderwock? Barnes on 4? (One day, hopefully) These fuckers.
Now, to the core of this conversation. Why i called this person stupid. Stand up, look me in the eye, and say it.
Say: "I think, that Hero power of Deathstalker Rexxar, the infamous control killer, the Build-A-Beast, is not a infinite value generator, because it doesnt win you the game on itself and you can still die after playing it. I say stupid things on the Internet and I'm proud of myself." Say it, and I have no complaints about you. What can you ask from a stupid person, honestly?
And, just to clarify, I'm totally agreeing with their initial statement, infinite value, as annoying to play against it, it can get, do not equals death to control decks. But ability from control decks to outplay said generators do not makes them non-infinite, somehow.
^Ahhh. This is perfect lesson that says: Study and learn your points before rushing into something. DK Jaina is not an infinite value card and Lyra certainly isnt stupid. Infinite value card means that without any other combination or support, the card or abbility with given effect can go infinite. Jainas Hero Power especially in fatique in Control is nothing more than a 1 dmg ping in most cases. That certainly isnt infinite value. Heck, if that is infinite value, then why don't we count some of the basic heropowrs as well? For example the Paladin one?
Lyra has actually pretty good points in general so I would thinks twice before going into argument against him ;)
^Ahhh. This is perfect lesson that says: Study and learn message you are going to reply, before rushing into something. It also helps to think about your responce a bit, but nevermind that. Ok, lets talk.
If you would've given a closer look to my message, you would notice that its says ''infinite value'' reffering to Jaina's power, and not infinite value. That reads: yes, technically that value isnt infinite-infinite, BUT, as long as your opponent plays minions and you have means to interact with them, you will have Water Elementals with lifesteal. Pseudo-infinite, you might say. Thats not Siphon Life (arguably), nor Build-A-Beast level of value, sure. But that also most certainly is not a Chillwind Yeti, a perfect one-time 4 mana 4/5 finite tempo level of value.
Also, yes you are right, technically, ALL of Hero Powers are infinite value generators, when you think about it. Even Fireblast is an infinite 1 damage a turn value generator, technically. Are they good infinite value generators tho? Not really. Are they good enough to be win conditions of a deck? Certainly not.
Next, if we pay attention to the part of his/her message I have problems with, they describing how you can still outvalue and outtempo Build-A-Beast with 4-6 10 mana Kazakus potions. I'm sure you can build your Reno deck in a way, so you could use and abuse the shit out of Kazakus and his potions. (Although now i'm trully curious to look at this deck, like is it worth to run multiple bouncers just for these rare value-intensive matchups? Are these bounce effects good enough vs aggro decks? I personally prefer just to use Sideshow Spelleater for these cases, usually works fine for me.) Therefore, they conclude, Build-A-Beast is NOT an infinite value generator.
The thing is, does the fact that you can still outplay your opponent who possesses infinite value generator, makes this exact value generator somehow non-infinite? Are you just supposed to lose against it if you cant SMOrc them? If i recall correctly, there was a nerf recently to certain infinite value generators, just because they had too little counterplay once they got rolling. You know, unfair and unfun to play against stuff. Kingsbane? Shudderwock? Barnes on 4? (One day, hopefully) These fuckers.
Now, to the core of this conversation. Why i called this person stupid. Stand up, look me in the eye, and say it.
Say: "I think, that Hero power of Deathstalker Rexxar, the infamous control killer, the Build-A-Beast, is not a infinite value generator, because it doesnt win you the game on itself and you can still die after playing it. I say stupid things on the Internet and I'm proud of myself." Say it, and I have no complaints about you. What can you ask from a stupid person, honestly?
And, just to clarify, I'm totally agreeing with their initial statement, infinite value, as annoying to play against it, it can get, do not equals death to control decks. But ability from control decks to outplay said generators do not makes them non-infinite, somehow.
I love how control players complain about [current meta-deck] when control never has a chance of coming back into the meta due to the incredible amounts of infinite value cards like Death Knights.
I've been busy for the last couple days, I come back and find what might the most ignorant post I have ever seen, I feel like I was just teleported back to my days of League of Legends General Discussion. Look, I know where you're trying to get at, but let me say two things;
First, if I have any complaint with this game, it's that Blizzard decided to make the hand size mechanic the way they did and then thought it was a good idea to add a card that not only has the ability to forcibly overdraw your opponent and then gave a class the ability to play 2-3 copies of said card per turn forcing your opponent to overdraw 5+ cards from their decks, somehow milling every essential card in their deck. Look, I'm ok with Coldlight Oracle as well as Rogue's whole shuffle and bounce package(Shadowstep, Gang Up, Sap, Vanish, Lab Recruiter), but as separate entities, a deck that combines these (i.e. Millbane) is just unfun to play against, it doesn't matter if your aggro, control, or combo (I've played all three into Millbane, lost every single time, though the aggro deck was before Odd/Even decks, so maybe that's changed, don't know, kind of don't care). My problem as a control player is not [current-meta deck] or even [card X], for the most part I try to learn for these loses and attempt to build better, more efficient decks; but when a deck abuses a fundamental flaw in Blizzard's game design, I have a problem with that, you're no longer playing the game at that point and just abusing poorly designed game mechanic. It's like how you can skip players turns with Nozdormu if you play it correctly, I've played at least one deck of that design idea in the past, and the difference between that deck and Millbane. I can still play around the former deck, with quick enough reactions or with hopefully a screw-up from the other player, I can remove Nozdormu before the deck before it causes any real damage. I can't do that with Coldlight Oracle, even with my Anti-Combo-Lock, they have two copies of Coldlight and it takes some incredible luck to get rid of just one, I've never been able to get both.
Second, I almost feel sorry for anyone who thinks DK's are automatic infinite value, so many of them fall flat without enough support. Look, I'm just going to break it down for you, someone else literally said that DK's are just giant threats, and while 'killing them' is technically an option, it's a lot harder to deal with a hero than a minion though, so for sanity's sake, we're going to ignore that idea and I'm just going to break this down for you. Death Knights are in four tiers, one is infinite value, two is near infinite value, and three is very finite value, and four is just garbage. Tier 1 is probably the DK's I question most in their design, like why did anyone think this was a good idea, Tier 2 is DK's with powerful effects and hero powers, but they eventually run out of gas (some more quickly than others), Tier 3 is DK's that are either played for only one half of their card, as the other half has finite value and even then, the half of the card the DK is played for is not infinite value either, and Tier 4 is pretty self-explanatory, there's only one Death Knight in Tier 4 and once you see who it is, it's pretty self explanatory.
Tier 1:
Deathstalker Rexxar: Jesus Christ this thing, what was Blizzard thinking? The ability to create a new minion each turn in already quite powerful, but to have it be a random minion that is a fusion of two random beast, each varying in strengths and abilities is insane. This is the only DK hero power that should've been more than 2 mana upon transformation, just to keep Hunter from DK'ing and then start consistently dropping 7-8 mana Zom-beasts every turn with no need to prep the turn before. This thing is the only Death Knight that should have been nerfed based on it's power alone, though the indirect of Priest's DK through Raza's nerf is a very close second.
Dr. Boom, Mad Genius: The only reason this thing is on the same tier as Rexxar is because I didn't feel like getting into the nitty-gritty with 1.5 and 2.5 tiers (It would have been ridiculous, not worth the effort). Boom is honestly a much more tame Rexxar, with a mix of card advantage, life gain, removal, and minion generation, Boom's mix of power if more balanced as you can only do one at a time, instead of like Rexxar, which can give you 2-3 of those effects on one Zom-Beast, though that usually takes up Rexxar's whole turn, while Boom can still do things afterwards. Personally, I think Rexxar is still the stronger of the two, but after The Frozen Throne rotates, Dr. Boom might become the fear of Standard again (Ah, the GvG days, good old Dr. 7...man, he seems surprisingly balanced considering all the ridiculous shit you see now).
Tier 2:
Frost Lich Jaina: While an elemental deck is better equipped to abuse her passive, the fact that her hero power summons elementals if used properly, those elementals being one of the best 4-drops ever printed, all while giving the added effect as a (mostly) consistent source of life gain, makes her the most powerful of the Tier 2 DK's, imo. She has two glaring weaknesses though; the fact that her hero power has to get the kill in order to get the elementals and the fact that any full board clear effectively shuts off her life gain. These two make beating Frost Lich an infinitely easier task. If you can't do one of these (usually the board clear one), make smart trades, do you best to slow down their game plan as much as possible. I've one Frost Lich mirrors doing this, and I personally think that anyone who whines about Jaina being 'infinite value' is someone not thinking hard enough when it comes to this game. TCG's and CCG's are strategy games are their core, if you can't think like that, I can't do much to help with that.
Hagatha the Witch: While definitely the better of Shaman's two Death Knight cards (the Witch is incredibly more powerful than the Evolve-bot what was Thrall, Deathseer), she is not infinite. She actually requires the deck to be more built around her than any other previous DK's, while Rexxar, Boom, and Lich, can go into (almost) any deck in their respective class, Hagatha requires a minion heavy Shaman as her hero power only pumps out spells as long as you have minions to play, and even then it's not even good. Seeing multiple copies of Ancestral Knowledge, Ancestor's Call, and/or Eureka! in a single game just fills your hand with useless garbage most of the time and you need to empty your hand so you can get better cards and hopefully not overdraw. This hand filling gets even more ridiculous if you play her in Shudderwock decks, as you'd rather have your combo pieces and more Shudderwocks over a random spell of two. Her battlecry is probably one of the best battlecries of the various DK's and if I was grading them by their instant value alone, she would easily be top 3 or 4, and while the passive hero power if useful, the random junk can hurt your game plan and even put you game losing situations against certain match-ups.
Valeera the Hollow: One of the various reasons many players have a dislike of Millbane. She's probably the tamest card when it comes to Millbane's various enablers, but she is powerful nontheless. Stealth for your hero is possibly more powerful than throwing up a wall of taunts as you can't throw targeted spells over the wall, however, this effect is actually the weak side of her (imo). The Shadow Reflection is the ability that allows Millbane to play multiple Coldlights in the late game, that allows Deathrattle Rogue to throw down multiple efficient minions in a turn, and allows them to double (sometimes triple) up the use of spells and further extend combos (I've used Greater Onyx Spellstone twice in a turn, 6 Assassinates for 10 mana felt so fucking good). However, Valeera, much like Hagatha, is based on your deck, you can only go so far with her, and the second you run out of cards you can double up, you lose the power of her hero power, and with that, lose all the efficiency of the card.
Tier 3:
Malfurion the Pestilent: I am ready for the disagreements on this one, I know Druid has been (and depending on the future, might continue to be) the bane of many people's existence, but honestly, that's more of Druid as a whole as less about their DK. Look, at instant value, Malfurion is easily top 4. Imo, he, Hagatha, Gul'dan, and Valeera are the top 4 in terms of instant value, and I'll get into while I don't include Zul'jin on this list later, but for now, realize that all the 'power' that Malfurion has is just posing to disguise the fact that the true power lies in your ability to choose, but when you break it down, you realize that very little is actually in terms of power. His battlecry is a choice between Webweave, a meh spell, and only two triggers of Spreading Plague, and while Plague itself is an amazing card, only two triggers means you're probably desperate to either empty your hand or have some taunts for immediate threats on the board. On the other hand, his hero power is a highly overrated split of Gnash, with one side being a better Armor Up, but a worse Tank Up, and the other side being 3 attack, while powerful, that's 2 mana for an Eaglehorn Bow attack each turn, those build up, but since you aren't getting the extra value a Hunter would get off of those secrets you would be theoretically popping to keep the bow in a useful state. Now I know Fandral Staghelm makes both of these effects incredibly efficient, but considering those triggers are 11 and 6 mana respectively (for just one use, playing Fandrel and then using the ability), it feels like there might be better plays than that.
Zul'jin: Hunter's Shudderwock...god this thing is a mess, look I know it's powerful, being able to replay spells in a class with very little spell generation and card draw is immensely powerful, especially with the ability to replay secrets and the various token generators that Hunter has gotten in recent expansions, but this still feels lackluster. You can't play several good Hunter cards as they are either too inefficient or have the chance (sometimes guaranteed) of hurting you more than you opponent. The paradox is similar to why you don't play direct card draw or targeted damage in Shudderwock, you end up hurting yourself as much, if not more than, you do your opponent. Also, that hero power, wtf is this Shadowform, Odd Mage, Steamwheedle Sniper, bullcrap. Like, you gave Hunter's DKs the most interesting and the most boring hero powers out of all the DKs, how, just how.
Uther of the Ebon Blade: I'm going to say this again, if I really wanted to, I could go and add more tiers, because honestly, so many of the DKs on Tier 3 (Seriously, half of them ended up on Tier 3), but the amount of half tier crap is something I do not have the patience to deal with, so instead we have the centerpiece of Exodia Paladin on the same tier as Scourgelord Garrosh. Look, Uther getting an Ashbringer with lifesteal is a great battlecry, not top 4 material, but very close, honestly, him, Zul'jin, and Anduin are all tied for 5th in my mind. The real power and weakness in Uther lies in his exodia hero power. As the first of now multiple win conditions that didn't involve dealing damage to your opponent, the four horsemen are what the upgraded Paladin hero power should've been, 2-mana every turn for a 2/2, expect that one wouldn't have exodia potential or anything like that. Unfortunately, all this talk of Uther's Exodia combo potential is also the DK's weakness, as the 2/2's are simple fodder, unlike Jaina's elementals or Rexxar's Zom-beasts, the four horsemen are taken care of quite easily and it leaves Uther with very little power outside of it being able to win you the game if you can assemble all the pieces, or your opponent is an idiot and doesn't deal with them (I've had it happen before...people are ignorant in the face of danger sometimes).
Bloodreaver Gul'dan: At some point the lord of demon's was turned into a vampire...which considering Warlock's constant need for healing effects makes sense, but still confuses me sometimes. Anyway, Gul'dan is actually Tier 1(and #1) in a discussion of battlecries alone, because, despite the sometimes extensive set up you need to get this battlecry off right, the ability to summon a board full of demons, even if they're somehow all Voidwalker, if a decent effect at worst and a monstrous board swing at best (You even summon Mal'ganis, 2 Voidlord's and several other good demons off a Gul'dan, the overwhelming power). This alone would put Gul'dan in Tier 2 if it wasn't for his hero power. Look, deal three with lifesteal is good effects for 2-mana, but when you're the class that is more likely to go into fatigue before your opponent based on your base hero power alone, that healing isn't going to be enough when you're 2-3 cards deeper into fatigue than your opponent. Now in situation where you and your opponent are on equal fatigue, this power is a life-saver, but in the situations where you're already, all it can do is slow the bleeding (don't worry, I'm shooting myself later for that unintentional pun). Also, one board wipe can hose everything about this DK's battlecry (especially if Mal'ganis is among your demonic horde).
Shadowreaper Anduin: Speaking of board clears that hose Bloodreaver Gul'dan, the card that got Raza nerfed (in what was probably one of the slowest nerfs in history) makes to Tier 3 due to said nerf, pre nerf, easily Tier 2, possibly making Tier 1 considering Dr. Boom and Hagatha wouldn't be out yet. First, the mass Shadow Word: Death (Is Shadow Word: Terror/Destruction a possibility for the future Blizzard) might be one of Priest's better board wipes as the class has only three board wipes that deal with large minions and both Psychic Scream and Lightbomb are not enough in certain situations, but better in others. Then there's the hero power, the specific part that got Raza nerfed, while a resetting Shadowform is useful, you had to be playing a certain kind of Priest to truly abuse this pre-nerf, and now, post-nerf, the effect is still good, but kind of lackluster in my book, I mean, I've always felt lackluster about the hero power, as there was only one way to abuse it and that deck was honestly pretty boring as hell to play, and without Raza buffing the hero power, resetting Shadowform, while not the most efficient way shoot down minions, can be decent removal, but not the best way to do it.
Scourgelord Garrosh: At the end of Tier 3 is this hunk of junk, continued proof that if a class has multiple DKs, one will be better than the other. The weapon of this DK is probably one of the best weapons ever put into this game and I'm sad that it's attached to an 8 mana mess. On one end, this is actually a decent DK, the weapon acts as a pseudo board clear and is decent damage, the hero power being a Whirlwind every turn and the mana cost means you can DK hero power of turn 10, unlike some of the other Death Knights on this list (Uther). However, your weapon loses to good minion placement, and while Whirlwind and Warpath are good cards, this hero power isn't, it's slow, costs twice the mana of Whirlwind and can't deal with most board states fast enough to matter. Look, while Whirlwind into King Mosh and Warpathing multiple times are effective board clears when you don't want to (or don't have) Brawl, this hero power is neither of those and Garrosh finds himself down here because of it.
Tier 4:
Thrall, Deathseer: Oh don't look at me like that, y'all should've seen this coming. Look, Evolve Shaman is a cool archetype, unfortunately, it was heavily based on RNG and while the card pool was good when Whispers of the Old Gods came out, it's gotten steadily worse as more sets get printed and Thrall is the worst of the worst. Evolving by two and having the Master of Evolution battlecry as your hero power forces the theme so hard, I'm surprised every Evolve Shaman player during Frozen Throne didn't just choke on this shit. Look, most of the DK's don't need a board state to be useful, a few build their own board state on the spot, some don't even need their battlecry to be the engine they are, but Thrall requires it, as this is how evolve works, it's a tempo style of DK and if Evolve as a mechanic has taught the players anything, it's that you shouldn't rely on extreme RNG to make tempo plays. If DK Thrall had any way to produce tokens with just the card, this would at least be Tier 3, and even without Hagatha in existence, this thing would still be the worst DK just because of how it's designed, but Hagatha the Witch as a card only further cements DK Thrall as worst Death Knight, for now.
For those who just want to tl;dr this shit, here's the quick rundown(you want the reasoning, read the post fully):
It can still prey upon the top tier Aggro/Tempo decks with his various Midrange lists.
I mean, Even Druid can regularly outsteam Even Shaman and Odd Rogue. Yes, Even Druid.
Sure Druid population will drop, but just that of players abusing the class. It's a fair normalization, waiting for that of other broken stuff to happen as well, hopefully before Rotation happens.
I see your point, but if Garrosh is T4, than Thrall is T5, the amount of shit the card requires in order to be decent is so much that it deserves to be in it's own tier.
Look, if I was going to do this with the .5 tiers, it would be like this:
Tier 1:
Deathstalker Rexxar
Dr. Boom, Mad Genius
Tier 1.5:
Frost Lich Jaina
Tier 2:
Hagatha the Witch
Valeera the Hollow
Tier 2.5
Bloodreaver Gul'dan
Zul'jin
Tier 3:
Malfurion the Pestilient
Shadowreaper Anduin
Uther of the Ebon Blade
Tier 3.5:
Scourgelord Garrosh
Tier 4:
Thrall, Deathseer
All in all, I understand that certain Death Knights don't deserve to be on the same tier as others, but for the most part, Tier 3 before the .5 tiers is so large because it encompasses all the DK's that are good, but once their battlecry is done, they have very little left, their hero powers are better in certain situations and have potential to be powerful effects, but they can only do so much. Honestly, tier 2.5 is based on the absolute potential strength of the battlecries alone, especially for Zul'jin because that hero power is so shit.
Ok, so I've been busy for the last two days and literally just saw the most recent set of changes, and just wanted to quickly talk about my opinion on it, because I've already seen a couple of threads and I just wanted to get a few things out of the way, including a common misconception that people seem to be having about the rogue change.
Rogue is still the top class to deal with Big Priest and Kingsbane can still decimate Big Priest and Control decks will have a hard time due to the power of Coldlight Oracle, Sap, and Vanish. The change to Leeching Poison mean that Control decks now at least have a change since Kingsbane isn't healing the Rogue for 10+ on every attack.
Overall, the changes are good for Standard and as usual, Wild gets caught in the crossfire, but some of it isn't as bad as we make it out to be. Wild is always adapting, and this will be no different, however, Druid is fucking gone, no exceptions.
I love how control players complain about [current meta-deck] when control never has a chance of coming back into the meta due to the incredible amounts of infinite value cards like Death Knights.
I still have no idea where people get this concept that infinite value = death to control decks. Are we back in the old tank-up Control Warrior metas where control solely relies on fatiguing your opponent to death by just removing stuff? Control decks can still win against infinite value when they actually have a finisher, a high tempo swing turn, or even an OTK alternate win condition.
For example, I've had many games on wild ladder against [Insert random hunter with Rexxar here] vs my Reno Mage, a match-up that according to some people is an "unwinnable match-up" due to Build-a-beast. And yet Rexxar isn't truly an infinite value card. Why? It is due to fatigue and chip damage being a thing. Unless I get really unlucky with my draws and they get really lucky with constant charging zombeasts I almost always win against Rexxar and just win out-tempoing the board combined with fatigue and chip damage (Not outvaluing the hero power, but out tempoing the board so that they never get more than 1-2 big things on board). Zombeasts have nothing on 4-6 10 mana Kazakus potions. This isn't just a few rare games for me, but is consistent at least for my laddering experience across the board.
Control lock is another deck that can beat other infinite value decks when it also runs a Mecha'Thun package. Who cares about "infinite value" when value isn't going to be what decides the game?
Now for the perception that druid is dead. I disagree OP. It is much weaker to aggro decks, but against slow decks it isn't that crippling if a combo druid deck ramps a little more slowly. In the end the control opponent probably still is not outputting enough damage to kill the druid before they combo them down.
"Playing a control deck means playing the opposite game of an aggro deck. Where an aggro deck plays one mana-efficient threat after another for the fastest victory, a control deck is looking to answer an opponent's threats and make the game go long. In that long game, the control deck uses card-drawing spells to out-resource an opponent, clearing the way to play a large, game-ending threat that the opponent can't deal with." (Murphy.Q, 2017) (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/how-build/how-build-control-2017-01-31)
You self-entitled "pure" control players seem tofrequently forget that one tiny yet humungously important bolded part, DKs are one of those game-ending threats control can run.
It's because control players
I don't understand why people think the nourish nerf is better than the wild growth one.
Wild growth is druid's Keleseth. If they have that card in their opening hand the odds of them winning are so much higher than when they do not have it, it's ridiculous
You do realize that Frost Lich Jaina, core part of Reno Mage, is another one of these ''infinite value'' cards, right? Right? Also the argument that Rexxar is somehow not infinite value card, because you can still die after playing it - is one of the stupidest ideas i ve ever heard.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
^Ahhh. This is perfect lesson that says: Study and learn your points before rushing into something. DK Jaina is not an infinite value card and Lyra certainly isnt stupid. Infinite value card means that without any other combination or support, the card or abbility with given effect can go infinite. Jainas Hero Power especially in fatique in Control is nothing more than a 1 dmg ping in most cases. That certainly isnt infinite value. Heck, if that is infinite value, then why don't we count some of the basic heropowrs as well? For example the Paladin one?
Lyra has actually pretty good points in general so I would thinks twice before going into argument against him ;)
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
^Ahhh. This is perfect lesson that says: Study and learn message you are going to reply, before rushing into something. It also helps to think about your responce a bit, but nevermind that. Ok, lets talk.
If you would've given a closer look to my message, you would notice that its says ''infinite value'' reffering to Jaina's power, and not infinite value. That reads: yes, technically that value isnt infinite-infinite, BUT, as long as your opponent plays minions and you have means to interact with them, you will have Water Elementals with lifesteal. Pseudo-infinite, you might say. Thats not Siphon Life (arguably), nor Build-A-Beast level of value, sure. But that also most certainly is not a Chillwind Yeti, a perfect one-time 4 mana 4/5 finite tempo level of value.
Also, yes you are right, technically, ALL of Hero Powers are infinite value generators, when you think about it. Even Fireblast is an infinite 1 damage a turn value generator, technically. Are they good infinite value generators tho? Not really. Are they good enough to be win conditions of a deck? Certainly not.
Next, if we pay attention to the part of his/her message I have problems with, they describing how you can still outvalue and outtempo Build-A-Beast with 4-6 10 mana Kazakus potions. I'm sure you can build your Reno deck in a way, so you could use and abuse the shit out of Kazakus and his potions. (Although now i'm trully curious to look at this deck, like is it worth to run multiple bouncers just for these rare value-intensive matchups? Are these bounce effects good enough vs aggro decks? I personally prefer just to use Sideshow Spelleater for these cases, usually works fine for me.) Therefore, they conclude, Build-A-Beast is NOT an infinite value generator.
The thing is, does the fact that you can still outplay your opponent who possesses infinite value generator, makes this exact value generator somehow non-infinite? Are you just supposed to lose against it if you cant SMOrc them? If i recall correctly, there was a nerf recently to certain infinite value generators, just because they had too little counterplay once they got rolling. You know, unfair and unfun to play against stuff. Kingsbane? Shudderwock? Barnes on 4? (One day, hopefully) These fuckers.
Now, to the core of this conversation. Why i called this person stupid. Stand up, look me in the eye, and say it.
Say: "I think, that Hero power of Deathstalker Rexxar, the infamous control killer, the Build-A-Beast, is not a infinite value generator, because it doesnt win you the game on itself and you can still die after playing it. I say stupid things on the Internet and I'm proud of myself." Say it, and I have no complaints about you. What can you ask from a stupid person, honestly?
And, just to clarify, I'm totally agreeing with their initial statement, infinite value, as annoying to play against it, it can get, do not equals death to control decks. But ability from control decks to outplay said generators do not makes them non-infinite, somehow.
Am I clear enough now?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I gotta admit I§m wrong I will give you that xDD
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
I've been busy for the last couple days, I come back and find what might the most ignorant post I have ever seen, I feel like I was just teleported back to my days of League of Legends General Discussion. Look, I know where you're trying to get at, but let me say two things;
My problem as a control player is not [current-meta deck] or even [card X], for the most part I try to learn for these loses and attempt to build better, more efficient decks; but when a deck abuses a fundamental flaw in Blizzard's game design, I have a problem with that, you're no longer playing the game at that point and just abusing poorly designed game mechanic. It's like how you can skip players turns with Nozdormu if you play it correctly, I've played at least one deck of that design idea in the past, and the difference between that deck and Millbane. I can still play around the former deck, with quick enough reactions or with hopefully a screw-up from the other player, I can remove Nozdormu before the deck before it causes any real damage. I can't do that with Coldlight Oracle, even with my Anti-Combo-Lock, they have two copies of Coldlight and it takes some incredible luck to get rid of just one, I've never been able to get both.
Death Knights are in four tiers, one is infinite value, two is near infinite value, and three is very finite value, and four is just garbage. Tier 1 is probably the DK's I question most in their design, like why did anyone think this was a good idea, Tier 2 is DK's with powerful effects and hero powers, but they eventually run out of gas (some more quickly than others), Tier 3 is DK's that are either played for only one half of their card, as the other half has finite value and even then, the half of the card the DK is played for is not infinite value either, and Tier 4 is pretty self-explanatory, there's only one Death Knight in Tier 4 and once you see who it is, it's pretty self explanatory.
For those who just want to tl;dr this shit, here's the quick rundown(you want the reasoning, read the post fully):
Druid is not dead in Wild either.
It can still prey upon the top tier Aggro/Tempo decks with his various Midrange lists.
I mean, Even Druid can regularly outsteam Even Shaman and Odd Rogue. Yes, Even Druid.
Sure Druid population will drop, but just that of players abusing the class. It's a fair normalization, waiting for that of other broken stuff to happen as well, hopefully before Rotation happens.
I see your point, but if Garrosh is T4, than Thrall is T5, the amount of shit the card requires in order to be decent is so much that it deserves to be in it's own tier.
Look, if I was going to do this with the .5 tiers, it would be like this:
All in all, I understand that certain Death Knights don't deserve to be on the same tier as others, but for the most part, Tier 3 before the .5 tiers is so large because it encompasses all the DK's that are good, but once their battlecry is done, they have very little left, their hero powers are better in certain situations and have potential to be powerful effects, but they can only do so much. Honestly, tier 2.5 is based on the absolute potential strength of the battlecries alone, especially for Zul'jin because that hero power is so shit.
Guess what.
It is time for Malygos Shaman to return!
Tired to lose against Big Priest? Make their lifes misirable :D
Here is my current decklist:
### ♡ Malygos OTK
# Class: Shaman
# Format: Wild
#
# 2x (1) Frost Shock
# 2x (1) Lightning Bolt
# 2x (1) Totemic Smash
# 2x (2) Ancestral Knowledge
# 2x (2) Crackle
# 2x (2) Devolve
# 2x (2) Lava Shock
# 2x (2) Likkim
# 2x (2) Maelstrom Portal
# 2x (3) Healing Rain
# 2x (3) Lava Burst
# 1x (4) Ancestor's Call
# 1x (4) Barnes
# 2x (4) Hex
# 2x (5) Volcano
# 1x (6) Emperor Thaurissan
# 1x (9) Malygos
#
AAEBAaoIBLQDzg/WEYW4Ag35A/4F4AbLB9YP8RHSE6C2Ava9AsfBAvPnApv/AvaKAwA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
The reason it is more viable now is weakness of druid, no more 40+ armor etc.