But regardless if its over-tuned or not, the card is still pretty slow (under normal circumstances). If the priest player wastes a whole turn playing a Statue and then the opponent just silences/transforms it, then they are totally screwed especially if their opponent plays a fast deck. Same thing goes for other hated cards such as Voidlord or Mal'Ganis (there was a complaint about him in the previous page). The real problem is how we manage to overcome their drawback easily and cheese them out earlier than we should. If this wasn't the case, then you wouldn't have to deal with a lifesteal, a minion killing taunt by turn 4-6, which will get resurrected multiple times; warlocks wouldn't be able to thin out their decks and summon voidlords, doomguards, mal'ganis by turn 6 (skull) or 7 (lackey + pact) and then multiply them with a cube. If those minions always presented their real drawbacks, then the priest/warlocks players would have been obligated to make some sacrifices.
As we all can agree - the problem in those decks are the cards, which enable cheesing out powerful minions early on and ignoring their drawbacks (mana spent, discarding 2 cards etc etc). You also said it - you would be more than happy if you only faced the statues not until turn 9.
For the is the main Problem not Barnes. More the Ressurect effects which allow ressurect 10 Mana minions for 2 Mana. They should change it to: Ressurect a Minion which cost 7 Mana or less.
Half of these post in this thread are completely wrong or written by a salty people. Really? Nerfing Ressurect? I honestly don't see Big Priest as a big threat. Sure, it can highroll Barnes into Yshaarj, but thats not happening most of the times. All Reno decks are close to infinite value and have a ton of removal or transforms effect. If you dont wanna take into consideration Control decks, Aviana+Kun decks are here for you, Kinsgbane Rogue is here for you, hell even Even Shaman can burn Big Priest and can also put a large minions on the board in early stages of the game. This deck have its weaknesses and it is beatable. Why don't you complain or suggest nerfing a Big Rogue in an instance? Its also a highroll deck and it can be literally unremovable on the board with exception of Kazakus mass polymorph and Psychic Scream yet no one complains about this deck. Why? Just because it is at the bottom of Tier 2? Thats still kinda op in Wild you know? For me this feels like an another cry thread. If Big Priest gets nerfed, the people will complain about Innerf Fire varriations or Drakonid OP or some Reno Arcibishop Priest, Like can you tell me how the nerf of Cubelock and Giantlock affected Warlocks powerlevel for example? Instead of highrolling they are now playing 4+ Kazakus 10 mana potions which is kinda gross and OP and a lot of people are beginning to be salty about it.
Yes, I think it should be nerfed. If you play midrange - control it's auto loss.
Yes and if you play control lock versus 'Tempo' Mage it is generally an automatic loss too. I think that the Hearthstone community doesn't have a good sense of the role that counter archtypes are meant to serve in card games, otherwise I wouldn't see this whole concept of "My random deck of this random archtype automatically loses to this other deck. All decks are special snowflakes that have a right to maintain close to a 50% win rate against any deck. Therefore, nerf this counter deck!"
Certain decks are SUPPOSED to lose to other certain decks because certain archtypes/decks play against the weaknesses of another archtype/deck. Saying that Big Priest should be nerfed because it beats midrange is like saying Coldlight Oracle should be nerfed in wild because it capitalizes on greedy players.
Absolutely, I just played against 5 in a row. (I have played against more than 50 in the past year) They all had Barnes on turn 4. The most tilted thing to play against is Ragnaros the Firelord. If I play aggro they resurrect Obsidian Statue, if I play midrange I can't out value them, if I play control/otk they resurrect Ragnaros the Firelord. Unless you are mage or shaman and you draw your transforming spells before turn 4 or 6, you are very unlikely to win. A deck that counters 7 classes is not only unpleasant to play against, but also problematic because the only way you can win with those classes is to hope that they draw badly. which is not interactive.
Edit: I meant the 5 I played against in a row all had Barnes on turn 4, not all 50.
It should but i have no idea how. I dont want them to nerf Barnes becouse it is pefectly fine card in any other deck. Also statue is perfectly fine by itself.
It's a powerful deck but it's existence is important for balance in the Wild format. The deck has many counters but Renolock isn't one of them. Renolock would be undisputed champion of the format without Big Priest. They can outvalue any deck but Big Priest, and the combo decks that usually prey on control decks need to dodge a lot of silver bullets like Gnomeferatu, Dirty Rat and sometimes Skulking Geist. Renolock is also good against aggro because of their many tools and Reno of course.
Countering Big Priest is soooo easy. Rogue has many tools like Sap and Vanish. Mage and Shaman can transform. Warriors have nice little raptors. Warlocks can use Doomsayer + Treachery. Even Tinkmaster Overspark can be thrown in somewhere. Screwing up their res pool is so easy and they immediately lose SO much value. You can then realistically try and control their threats instead of being drowned by infinite powerful res effects. Like half of the classes have tools available by default, other classes have lots of tech options. It's not like Naga where some classes straight up lose the game if the Giants land early. Not to mention good aggro decks always have a chance to run them down before they get their minions out. Also, the decks sometimes is embarrassingly pathetic when they hero power a bunch of times, then Coin + Shadow Essence out a 5/5 Barnes and die.
Countering Big Priest is soooo easy. Rogue has many tools like Sap and Vanish. Mage and Shaman can transform. Warriors have nice little raptors. Warlocks can use Doomsayer + Treachery. Even Tinkmaster Overspark can be thrown in somewhere. Screwing up their res pool is so easy and they immediately lose SO much value.
Oh, c'mon, dude. That transform stuff doesn't garantie you a win at all. I don't even say about how all this tech cards pathetic against other matchups. Warrior with taunt raptors? Really? This theorycrafting is pathetic.
It is not about win or lose. It is about how unfun to play against this stupid highroll deck. I dont mind to lose to ANY other deck. Even if its five genn shamans in a row. Its fine. Both players made decisions, skill matters. And in this stupid Big Priest it is not.
I know that i am noone and my opinion worth nothing. But guess what such wild players as Dane or Control think about this deck?
Countering Big Priest is soooo easy. Rogue has many tools like Sap and Vanish. Mage and Shaman can transform. Warriors have nice little raptors. Warlocks can use Doomsayer + Treachery. Even Tinkmaster Overspark can be thrown in somewhere. Screwing up their res pool is so easy and they immediately lose SO much value.
Oh, c'mon, dude. That transform stuff doesn't garantie you a win at all. I don't even say about how all this tech cards pathetic against other matchups. Warrior with taunt raptors? Really? This theorycrafting is pathetic.
It is not about win or lose. It is about how unfun to play against this stupid highroll deck. I dont mind to lose to ANY other deck. Even if its five genn shamans in a row. Its fine. Both players made decisions, skill matters. And in this stupid Big Priest it is not.
I know that i am noone and my opinion worth nothing. But guess what such wild players as Dane or Control think about this deck?
I'm sorry but nerfing a deck not based on power level, but mostly based on 'fun level' opens up flood gates that will degrade the quality of the game overall. Here is what the vocal community typically complains about; combos, otks/ttks, aggro, and rogue (cuz why not, they don't deserve working decks anyway).
If T5 decided to nerf Big Priest based on it not being fun to play against then I can guarantee you that the vocal minority will try to get the above types of decks also nerfed or killed 'cuz it ain't fun', even if the deck(s) in question were sub 30% win rates in casual. We already have a real example of this when Raging Worgen Warrior was nerfed. The deck was never even tier 3 and because the vocal minority whined the deck was killed. Why is it bad that stuff like this happens? It is because the vocal minority is exactly that, the minority part of the community. In many cases the average person might not care that intensely about those decks that are 'universally' labeled as un-fun. Now while Big Priest has a much better win rate than something like Raging Worgen Warrior saw, it is still very much countered by some decks.
As to your claim that transform effects don't matter I highly disagree with you there, it just depends on if you're playing a deck that has transform AND high amounts of value. I already posted one screenshot of Reno Mage mopping up the floor with Big Priest on wild ladder. I have more screenshots of many more games if you'd like to be proven wrong that such effects don't matter in the hands of the right deck/player. I have taken almost every Big Priest I've faced to fatigue every time, even during games where I didn't have a transform at the time for Rag. Multiple Kazakus potions, Poly, Poly Boar easily make 1-2 spellstones very inefficient in the late game since they already have three different bad minions possibly diluting their pool (Barnes, sheep, and a boar).
It is also ignorant to say that any deck requires no skill. Sure, some decks require more, but even I can admit when things like aggro, giant/big priest, otk, and even KIngsbane Rogue (and I loathe this deck with a passion) does require varying degrees of skill.
It's a highroll deck. It does have the potential to brick massively. I've seen more than a few games where they're just dead by turn 6, laughably hero powering every turn but doing nothing meaningful because the RNG gods have pissed on their game.
However, if they play Barnes on 4, winrate becomes about 70%. If it pulls Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound, add another 20% onto that.
I won't say it's overpowered but it is a degenerate playstyle, boring to play against, boring to play as. I initially thought in KoFT it was an accidental archetype, never intended by Blizzard but I was quite disappointed when the spellstone came about in KaC, as this should not be encouraged.
I don't believe it's out of control...yet. But Barnes is going to become a real problem eventually.
As long as there are plenty of counters to the deck, Big Priest is here to stay. T5 said multiple times they don't think it's an issue. They will keep an eye on it but they feel there is enough counterplay available. I agree. Is the deck degenerate? Yes. Do you have a problem with it? Then play some Standard instead. Powerful decks and degenerate combo's are a part of this format. ONLY when they're too consistent and difficult to counter and stifles deck creativity, is when they start swinging the nerf hammer. If anything, this deck encourages you to think about solutions. There's tons of options. Are you upset at turn 3-4 Barnes? Suck it up buttercup. It's the nature of CCGs. Especially in eternal formats.
And yes, transform effects are viable. Even nice little raptors are a real thing in wild. Muddying res pools is not only good vs. Big Priest. Kazakus is a heavy played legendary right now. Tossing three raptors in their res pool is deceptively powerful. And even though Taunt Druid is niche in Wild, it does see play and it's a hard counter to Witching Hour. I will concede I was being a bit optimistic when suggesting Tinkmaster Overspark, but I just love that card lol.
The deck just need an few more good 8-10 mana taunts to be truly broken and maybe an other resurrect effect to replace the 2 mana one, that can be to random sometimes.
A very unfun deck to play against. Sure you can beat it with aggro/tempo decks but it creates a bad meta.
The meta would still be exactly the same without Big Priest.
What do you think Kingsbane Rogue does to the meta? It is generally an auto loss for control decks without an OTK/big burst combo built in, and if pressured enough by aggro it will die to such fast decks.
People seem to think that if Big Priest was gone it would magically change the meta. There will always be decks that punish control and suck against aggro, so there isn't much point trying to kill one deck when the end result changes nothing at all (though I see no point in killing Big Priest since I believe Wild was always intended to be mostly untouched and allow you to play how you want, not micro managed by the vocal minority police).
I didn't say transform doesn't matter. It matters but not that much. Yes sometimes have transform early in the game and they have bad hand and u manage to build a pressure but when it comes to so much rng it is sad. Those screenshot is fine but i trust more if u give me more solid prooves. 100+ games statistic. Because wins are stuck in our memory and loses we are try to forget.
And yes, transform effects are viable. Even nice little raptors are a real thing in wild. Muddying res pools is not only good vs. Big Priest. Kazakus is a heavy played legendary right now. Tossing three raptors in their res pool is deceptively powerful. And even though Taunt Druid is niche in Wild, it does see play and it's a hard counter to Witching Hour. I will concede I was being a bit optimistic when suggesting Tinkmaster Overspark, but I just love that card lol.
Do u play raptor warrior on ladder? In what ranks? What is your good matchups?
Do u play Tinkmaster on ladder? In what decks? In what ranks?
How often did u see hadronox druid on wild ladder? I saw it about 1 time in 100-150 mathes. Yeah, very popular and strong deck.
The statue may be a bit more on the plus side, but imho its cost being 9 mana makes up for the effect.
https://youtu.be/VL_hsr5k1Ds?t=33
But regardless if its over-tuned or not, the card is still pretty slow (under normal circumstances). If the priest player wastes a whole turn playing a Statue and then the opponent just silences/transforms it, then they are totally screwed especially if their opponent plays a fast deck. Same thing goes for other hated cards such as Voidlord or Mal'Ganis (there was a complaint about him in the previous page). The real problem is how we manage to overcome their drawback easily and cheese them out earlier than we should. If this wasn't the case, then you wouldn't have to deal with a lifesteal, a minion killing taunt by turn 4-6, which will get resurrected multiple times; warlocks wouldn't be able to thin out their decks and summon voidlords, doomguards, mal'ganis by turn 6 (skull) or 7 (lackey + pact) and then multiply them with a cube. If those minions always presented their real drawbacks, then the priest/warlocks players would have been obligated to make some sacrifices.
As we all can agree - the problem in those decks are the cards, which enable cheesing out powerful minions early on and ignoring their drawbacks (mana spent, discarding 2 cards etc etc). You also said it - you would be more than happy if you only faced the statues not until turn 9.
For the is the main Problem not Barnes. More the Ressurect effects which allow ressurect 10 Mana minions for 2 Mana. They should change it to: Ressurect a Minion which cost 7 Mana or less.
Half of these post in this thread are completely wrong or written by a salty people. Really? Nerfing Ressurect? I honestly don't see Big Priest as a big threat. Sure, it can highroll Barnes into Yshaarj, but thats not happening most of the times. All Reno decks are close to infinite value and have a ton of removal or transforms effect. If you dont wanna take into consideration Control decks, Aviana+Kun decks are here for you, Kinsgbane Rogue is here for you, hell even Even Shaman can burn Big Priest and can also put a large minions on the board in early stages of the game. This deck have its weaknesses and it is beatable. Why don't you complain or suggest nerfing a Big Rogue in an instance? Its also a highroll deck and it can be literally unremovable on the board with exception of Kazakus mass polymorph and Psychic Scream yet no one complains about this deck. Why? Just because it is at the bottom of Tier 2? Thats still kinda op in Wild you know? For me this feels like an another cry thread. If Big Priest gets nerfed, the people will complain about Innerf Fire varriations or Drakonid OP or some Reno Arcibishop Priest, Like can you tell me how the nerf of Cubelock and Giantlock affected Warlocks powerlevel for example? Instead of highrolling they are now playing 4+ Kazakus 10 mana potions which is kinda gross and OP and a lot of people are beginning to be salty about it.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
This is how you counter Big Priest.
Just because some classes, such as hunter, can't beat the deck doesn't mean all decks can't. There are some decks that your class isn't meant to beat.
Yes, I think it should be nerfed. If you play midrange - control it's auto loss.
Yes and if you play control lock versus 'Tempo' Mage it is generally an automatic loss too. I think that the Hearthstone community doesn't have a good sense of the role that counter archtypes are meant to serve in card games, otherwise I wouldn't see this whole concept of "My random deck of this random archtype automatically loses to this other deck. All decks are special snowflakes that have a right to maintain close to a 50% win rate against any deck. Therefore, nerf this counter deck!"
Certain decks are SUPPOSED to lose to other certain decks because certain archtypes/decks play against the weaknesses of another archtype/deck. Saying that Big Priest should be nerfed because it beats midrange is like saying Coldlight Oracle should be nerfed in wild because it capitalizes on greedy players.
Big priest no but Barnes yes, increase the cost to 5 should be enough.
Absolutely, I just played against 5 in a row. (I have played against more than 50 in the past year) They all had Barnes on turn 4. The most tilted thing to play against is Ragnaros the Firelord. If I play aggro they resurrect Obsidian Statue, if I play midrange I can't out value them, if I play control/otk they resurrect Ragnaros the Firelord. Unless you are mage or shaman and you draw your transforming spells before turn 4 or 6, you are very unlikely to win. A deck that counters 7 classes is not only unpleasant to play against, but also problematic because the only way you can win with those classes is to hope that they draw badly. which is not interactive.
Edit: I meant the 5 I played against in a row all had Barnes on turn 4, not all 50.
It should but i have no idea how. I dont want them to nerf Barnes becouse it is pefectly fine card in any other deck. Also statue is perfectly fine by itself.
It's a powerful deck but it's existence is important for balance in the Wild format. The deck has many counters but Renolock isn't one of them. Renolock would be undisputed champion of the format without Big Priest. They can outvalue any deck but Big Priest, and the combo decks that usually prey on control decks need to dodge a lot of silver bullets like Gnomeferatu, Dirty Rat and sometimes Skulking Geist. Renolock is also good against aggro because of their many tools and Reno of course.
Countering Big Priest is soooo easy. Rogue has many tools like Sap and Vanish. Mage and Shaman can transform. Warriors have nice little raptors. Warlocks can use Doomsayer + Treachery. Even Tinkmaster Overspark can be thrown in somewhere. Screwing up their res pool is so easy and they immediately lose SO much value. You can then realistically try and control their threats instead of being drowned by infinite powerful res effects. Like half of the classes have tools available by default, other classes have lots of tech options. It's not like Naga where some classes straight up lose the game if the Giants land early. Not to mention good aggro decks always have a chance to run them down before they get their minions out. Also, the decks sometimes is embarrassingly pathetic when they hero power a bunch of times, then Coin + Shadow Essence out a 5/5 Barnes and die.
Big Priest is NOT an issue.
Zoolock demolishes big priest
Oh, c'mon, dude. That transform stuff doesn't garantie you a win at all. I don't even say about how all this tech cards pathetic against other matchups. Warrior with taunt raptors? Really? This theorycrafting is pathetic.
It is not about win or lose. It is about how unfun to play against this stupid highroll deck. I dont mind to lose to ANY other deck. Even if its five genn shamans in a row. Its fine. Both players made decisions, skill matters. And in this stupid Big Priest it is not.
I know that i am noone and my opinion worth nothing. But guess what such wild players as Dane or Control think about this deck?
I'm sorry but nerfing a deck not based on power level, but mostly based on 'fun level' opens up flood gates that will degrade the quality of the game overall. Here is what the vocal community typically complains about; combos, otks/ttks, aggro, and rogue (cuz why not, they don't deserve working decks anyway).
If T5 decided to nerf Big Priest based on it not being fun to play against then I can guarantee you that the vocal minority will try to get the above types of decks also nerfed or killed 'cuz it ain't fun', even if the deck(s) in question were sub 30% win rates in casual. We already have a real example of this when Raging Worgen Warrior was nerfed. The deck was never even tier 3 and because the vocal minority whined the deck was killed. Why is it bad that stuff like this happens? It is because the vocal minority is exactly that, the minority part of the community. In many cases the average person might not care that intensely about those decks that are 'universally' labeled as un-fun. Now while Big Priest has a much better win rate than something like Raging Worgen Warrior saw, it is still very much countered by some decks.
As to your claim that transform effects don't matter I highly disagree with you there, it just depends on if you're playing a deck that has transform AND high amounts of value. I already posted one screenshot of Reno Mage mopping up the floor with Big Priest on wild ladder. I have more screenshots of many more games if you'd like to be proven wrong that such effects don't matter in the hands of the right deck/player. I have taken almost every Big Priest I've faced to fatigue every time, even during games where I didn't have a transform at the time for Rag. Multiple Kazakus potions, Poly, Poly Boar easily make 1-2 spellstones very inefficient in the late game since they already have three different bad minions possibly diluting their pool (Barnes, sheep, and a boar).
It is also ignorant to say that any deck requires no skill. Sure, some decks require more, but even I can admit when things like aggro, giant/big priest, otk, and even KIngsbane Rogue (and I loathe this deck with a passion) does require varying degrees of skill.
It's a highroll deck. It does have the potential to brick massively. I've seen more than a few games where they're just dead by turn 6, laughably hero powering every turn but doing nothing meaningful because the RNG gods have pissed on their game.
However, if they play Barnes on 4, winrate becomes about 70%. If it pulls Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound, add another 20% onto that.
I won't say it's overpowered but it is a degenerate playstyle, boring to play against, boring to play as. I initially thought in KoFT it was an accidental archetype, never intended by Blizzard but I was quite disappointed when the spellstone came about in KaC, as this should not be encouraged.
I don't believe it's out of control...yet. But Barnes is going to become a real problem eventually.
As long as there are plenty of counters to the deck, Big Priest is here to stay. T5 said multiple times they don't think it's an issue. They will keep an eye on it but they feel there is enough counterplay available. I agree. Is the deck degenerate? Yes. Do you have a problem with it? Then play some Standard instead. Powerful decks and degenerate combo's are a part of this format. ONLY when they're too consistent and difficult to counter and stifles deck creativity, is when they start swinging the nerf hammer. If anything, this deck encourages you to think about solutions. There's tons of options. Are you upset at turn 3-4 Barnes? Suck it up buttercup. It's the nature of CCGs. Especially in eternal formats.
And yes, transform effects are viable. Even nice little raptors are a real thing in wild. Muddying res pools is not only good vs. Big Priest. Kazakus is a heavy played legendary right now. Tossing three raptors in their res pool is deceptively powerful. And even though Taunt Druid is niche in Wild, it does see play and it's a hard counter to Witching Hour. I will concede I was being a bit optimistic when suggesting Tinkmaster Overspark, but I just love that card lol.
A very unfun deck to play against. Sure you can beat it with aggro/tempo decks but it creates a bad meta.
The deck just need an few more good 8-10 mana taunts to be truly broken and maybe an other resurrect effect to replace the 2 mana one, that can be to random sometimes.
The meta would still be exactly the same without Big Priest.
What do you think Kingsbane Rogue does to the meta? It is generally an auto loss for control decks without an OTK/big burst combo built in, and if pressured enough by aggro it will die to such fast decks.
People seem to think that if Big Priest was gone it would magically change the meta. There will always be decks that punish control and suck against aggro, so there isn't much point trying to kill one deck when the end result changes nothing at all (though I see no point in killing Big Priest since I believe Wild was always intended to be mostly untouched and allow you to play how you want, not micro managed by the vocal minority police).
Do u play raptor warrior on ladder? In what ranks? What is your good matchups?
Do u play Tinkmaster on ladder? In what decks? In what ranks?
How often did u see hadronox druid on wild ladder? I saw it about 1 time in 100-150 mathes. Yeah, very popular and strong deck.